 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2018-01-29 04:27
Lets face it..Olivier Patey and many other greats play this mouthpiece There is a youtube vid of him playing Bruckner 4 on this..the B40 lyre which is an excellent facing is used by Michael Collins and a number of soloisits...bravo the Msr. Gauvin for all his hard work on designing something new which is a somewhat more open facing with alot of gutsy tone!
David Dow
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2018-01-29 04:28
here is the youtube link,
ps. Jean Paul Gauvin desingned these two facings...the B40 release date I am not sure of the lyre version late 2001 or ealry 2002.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80wPyjWBuwI
David Dow
Post Edited (2018-01-29 04:29)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2018-01-29 12:41
Olivier Patey uses specific the 13 version of the B40 which gives a little different sound than the non-13 version.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2018-04-28 06:53
Not only that, but he plays them with a strength 4 V12 reed!
He says it’s in order to have a rich sound in a big orchestra. Does anyone else find playing stronger reeds than normal good for playing large concert halls?
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-04-28 10:49
Lots of really good and successful players use the various versions of B40 (especially in northern Europe, but also at least 2 principal players in Australia), I've tried but never really manage to make it work. For me, I've always loved the feeling of springiness you get with the more open facing, but just find it too uncomfortable for my embouchure.
Post Edited (2019-01-27 01:31)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2018-05-01 21:23
The B40 13 is a fine facing..in Canada many leading players use it ..mostly on R13 clarinet i suspect. As for tuning I have no issue..it also seems there is a resurgence of the B40 Lyre as well among players in New York and Los Angeles...I have heard Zinner will be longer making blanks...hmm that leaves the market in Europe in a quandry.
David Dow
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-05-01 21:51
Not a few custom mouthpiece makers/finishers here in the states as well.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2018-05-02 01:15
This could be a big opportunity for the many mouthpiece manufacturers who do not use Zinner blanks to become suppliers to those who once did. A few examples would be Ramon Wodkowski, Vandoren, Selmer, Licostini, Gotsu, Kuckmeier, Wi & Fi, Brad Behn (for most of his models), and Doug McClure with his recent CNC blanks supplied by Wes Rice (who also does the Fobes 10k blank). With the market open I would expect as least some of these, and many more, to jump on the bandwagon. In Germany I believe Leitner and Krauss make at least some of their own blanks; not sure about AW and EMS Schreiber.
Think of all the great A. Lelandais, Chedeville, Kaspar, Selmer, Vandoren, Woodwind, and Sumner mouthpieces that were made and played long before anyone heard of Zinner. (And some would add Kanter and Bay pieces to this little list).
Don't get me wrong; I have a Moba C and a Grabner CH Chicago, both on Zinner blanks, that I like very much, but as good as Zinners could be, they are not the beginning or the end of mouthpieces
Post Edited (2018-05-02 04:29)
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Author: gavalanche20
Date: 2018-05-02 02:36
Why is Zinner stopping production of blanks? It sounds odd as they seem to be the most popular sources of "professional" blanks. Who does that leave us with? I know there's Babbitt, and the Chedeville name has changed hands once more, so I guess there's that. On top of that some prominent mouthpiece makers have their own blanks now anyways like Behn and Fobes.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2018-05-03 16:19
Sadly, the world was informed last week that the firm of Hans Zinner GmbH & Co KG will be ending their business on June 30 of this year. Zinner has been in business for three generations and their absence will be keenly missed. Tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of clarinet players currently play on Zinner based mouthpieces.
Many vendors of hand finished mouthpieces use products from Zinner. Zinner is the single largest provider of products to this market.
I currently have over 300 Zinner mouthpiece blanks on hand, so I will be continuing to fill orders for all my Zinner based mouthpieces for quite awhile. You can feel confident in ordering at this time. Later as these stocks are depleted, the blanks will be replaced with those from other vendors or those which I will have designed and manufactured myself.
So, one era ends, and another starts,
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2018-05-03 21:26
Gavalanche20,
According to Clark Fobes(who makes many of his mouthpieces with Zinner blanks), Hans Zinner and his brother(the owners of the Zinner company) are retiring in the end of June this year. And it is uncertain what the future holds for the Zinner company after that.
Back to the B40 topic, I have used a B40 and B40 Lyre alternatively for some time. While I like their sounds, I couldn't control them very well.
But yes, the B40 series are really popular from around the world. Pretty much 80% of the pro players I've met recommended them. They seem to be the most popular models that Vandoren makes, though the BD5 seems to be almost as popular in recent years.
Josh
Post Edited (2018-05-03 21:26)
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Author: gavalanche20
Date: 2018-05-04 11:16
I hate to take this thread on yet another tangent, but has anyone been able to compare the B40 to the Reserve X10E? I have an X10E and was wondering how it compares to the B40 as I’ve noticed that D’Addario lists the B40 Lyre as a comparable facing to the X10E.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2018-05-11 07:13
gavalanche20, I haven't played the X10E, but I do have the X10 and a B40 on trial right now. Though I've only played them for a few hours each, I like both quite a bit and find them to be very different in character. For me, the B40 is warm and smooth, but a bit unfocused unless I put in a very conscious effort to focus the sound quite a bit.
By comparison, the X10 has a lot more focus and what I might risk calling "ping" in the sound. I do feel like I need to try a bit harder to warm up the sound on that one.
The tip opening difference between the two is obviously quite different (1.12mm for the X10 and 1.19mm for the B40), so I am using a #3.5 V12 on the X10 and a #3 V12 on the B40, but I find the resistance between the two to be comparable with these reed combinations.
My main mouthpiece is a Fobes San Francisco (Zinner) with a CF facing, which I play with a #3.5+ or a #4 V12. I tried these two to experiment with more open mouthpieces and softer reeds, which has been transformative for my bass clarinet playing. Jury is still out on whether this is what I want on the clarinet, but I'm intrigued.
Neither of these mouthpieces has what I'd describe as "color" in the tone to the extent that the Fobes does when I'm playing well, but that "color" can easily become harshness or excessive edginess when I'm not careful. Lately, controlling that has felt like riding a bit of a razor's edge, mostly due to the fact that I'm not playing clarinet for 4+ hours a day anymore.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2018-05-12 01:11
Just check the windows toward the bottom and make sure that there are no burrs in the window edges. I've seen several mouthpieces that have burrs - not ok for the reed sealing.
Is a very easy fix, but without being fixed, the mouthpiece will not play nearly as well.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: gavalanche20
Date: 2018-05-24 21:19
Max,
I'm actually coming from a Fobes CF+ myself, and I recently got a b40 (profile 88, series 13) for the same reasons as you did (trying out more open facings), and it's just been one day but I've been super impressed so far. There's a really nice focus and ring when paired with a V12 #3 reed, although the tone is noticeably darker and deeper than the Fobes. There's more presence, if you will.
Articulation was surprisingly easy, I wasn't expecting such an open mouthpiece to be this responsive even after putting a softer reed on. I don't experience the edginess that you describe with the Fobes, but perhaps it's because I prefer a more colorful sound.
Anyway, it's still too early to tell for sure but I'm really liking the B40, it's so far proving to me that a really good Vandoren can go toe to toe with some of the higher end mouthpieces out there.
Post Edited (2018-05-24 21:36)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-05-25 01:51
In my case, the B40 needed to sit on a shelf for a while until I could fully appreciate it. But with 3 1/2 Pilgerstorfer Rondos and a string as a ligature, it enables me to play a softer pp, especially with that altissimo D that is particulary problematic on my RC.
The sound really is less focused, but still, as a German I'm rather glad to sound a bit less "brilliant" (or as other often see Boehm: annoying). Plus, the responsiveness is better than with my Viotto B3, as a softer and slightly faster staccato was possible.
So I'm really impressed, though finding the right setup with this MPC was difficult. Softer reeds, I feel, create a way too bland, unfocused sound and I didn't enjoy it with my fairly light (or so I thought) ligature until I gave the reed more freedom using a traditional string. Then, I move go up to 3 1/2 Pilgerstorfer, or probably 3 with other reeds.
Also liked the intonation and dynamic control: On my Amati A clarinet, which is has a few "unique" notes, it was easier to compensate. The throat Bb was also better (flatter) than with my Viotto.
Good choice when you play more classical music or just prefer a darker, fuller tone. Having played on the B3 for years, I though the B40 was rather free blowing at first, but it might not develop its sound with softer reeds. 2 1/2 Steuers and Vandoren Classics didn't work at all, though they allowed a pretty high volume and vibrato.
Post Edited (2018-05-25 01:54)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2018-05-25 02:18
The B40 was designed especially to get a darkish sound using softer reeds by widening the tip rail. By doing that, the highest overtones get slightly muted so that the darker overtones are more projected. It combines the flexibility of a softer reed and a dark timbre. It’s a very good mouthpiece both for beginners to achieve a decent sound quickly, as for full time professionals to maintain one.
Alphie
Post Edited (2018-05-25 02:21)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2019-01-27 02:38
In this case I really enjoyed the up close, in your face GoPro version of Brahms 4th excerpt. The sound reproduced comes off like it would in one of the players' dry studio. Very instructive I think.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2019-01-27 03:20
I played the B40 for several years with #3 VD Traditional reeds--great combination. I switched to this (more open) mouthpiece from a B40 Lyre when I had to play a solo work with multiphonics. Overall a very reliable mouthpiece: nice/big sound, good response, and precise intonation.
I gradually found it to be a bit resistant and have switched to a Backun Arabesque which I find to be even better for me as it has a more expansive sound and blows with less resistance as it has a longer facing. I'm using Pilgerstorfer Dolce #4 or #4 1/2 reeds with it. I would recommend this mouthpiece to anyone considering a B40 or Viotto B3.
I also notice that Patey is now playing with a Silverstein Prelude ligature and appears to have some extensive keyword added to his Buffet Tosca (?), presumably to correct low E-F intonation. Good to see that he can hold his own using this "French" setup with the other "German" players who appear to be using Oehler or Reform Boehm setups.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2019-01-27 03:27
Actually I think I made a mistake.
https://youtu.be/4yL_D_cJFZ4
I’m this video it seems he is NOT playing the b40 13 anymore. I have no idea what he is playing now. But it sounds very clear and beautiful. He does mostly sound like himself though. The B40 is nevertheless a wonderful mouthpiece.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2019-01-27 21:24
I agree. Would love to know what model, as there is quite a range.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2019-01-28 00:06
If it is a Wodkowski piece, which looks likely, maybe he could let us in on patey’s choice! Although it’s probably customized specifically to him.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2019-02-02 01:09
I wonder if it is a selmer concept..i have heard it is getting played on continental europe a good deal..with the right adjustment it is very in tune!
David Dow
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Author: Geten
Date: 2024-06-22 18:04
Ok, but I do not like his sound- I find it hollow and edgy and very often he is not in tune. High….
Joachim in Sweden
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Author: Geten
Date: 2024-06-22 18:06
So this could be the reason he is to high and the sound edgy and hollow- to hard reeds for this mouthpiece- B 40 hm
Joachim in Sweden
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2024-06-22 22:38
Joachim: It's easy to criticise other people's intonation, especially in live performances. But it's a lot more difficult to play in tune yourself, right?
You are of course welcome to your personal taste about sound.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2024-06-22 23:40
Whoever makes a public performance consciously takes the risk of being criticized. This has always been part of it. I find this perfectly natural.
The fact that it's easier to criticize than actually do the thing doesn't invalidate the observations, they can be valid or invalid on their own. I would fail every obstacle in a hurdle jumping yet I can tell if a competitor fails to jump over one. The important thing is not to get personal when criticizing and stick to the subject instead of ad hominem attacks.
As for playing extremely hard reeds on open mouthpieces, I never really got the idea behind it. I'm convinced these players perform well despite their equipment and would do even better with a more efficient setup. That's just a personal opinion, of course.
Mark
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2024-06-23 10:50
Mark- I agree that the fact that it's easier to criticise than actually do the thing doesn't necessarily invalidate the observations. You only have to look at sports fans shouting at their TV screens from their couch :-)
But consider this hypothetical situation: imagine a player who has their own public performances online, demonstrating rather appalling intonation on their own part. How would you respond if this player repeatedly criticised the intonation of players from top orchestras?
Post Edited (2024-06-23 18:20)
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2024-06-24 00:18
As I said, any argument should be evaluated on its own and in its context rather than emphasizing the relativeness of that argument. The latter approach is misleading and potentially makes any fact a victim of subjectivity.
But intonation is measurable and quite well-defined. If anyone states that a certain player is not playing in tune, whereas in reality, they play well in tune, that's simply a false statement, regardless of who said that.
But you essentially say that only a certain level of proficiency makes someone entitled to express an opinion, this would be a terrible world to live in. I'm a fairly good home cook. If I go to a restaurant and get a rather dry steak, don't I have the right to criticize the chef, if he has two Michelin stars, and I have none?
Mark
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2024-06-24 01:22
Thanks for your response Mark. We‘ve gone way off topic, but I do find your discussion thought-provoking.
As you said, intonation is actually something one can measure, although I‘m not sure how one would do that from listening to a Youtube recording.
I‘m not very knowledgeable about food but if the dryness of a steak is something which objectively makes a meal “low-quality” then of course you have a right to criticize it. But you are an amateur cook. In my hypothetical example, we would be talking about one professional chef criticizing the steaks of Michelin star chefs on public platforms. Having read these criticisms I feel drawn to eat in his restaurant, only to discover that his own steaks are frequently served either raw or burnt.
Is it ok for this chef to diss superior chefs on public platforms?
You are correct that one doesn’t necessarily have to have the ability to do something in order to criticize how others do it. Music critics are seldom accomplished musicians themselves.
So I guess we have to just take the inferior chef’s criticisms with… a pinch of salt? :-)
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2024-06-24 03:10
Good points. Sorry for hijacking the thread
Maybe it's best to separate the intention behind any criticism, and its actual content. Jealousy and bitterness can be a motive, just like constructiveness, and the urge to express an unbiased, professional opinion. The intention can sometimes be morally questionable, regardless of the validity of the content.
Back to the original topic, I did hear some accomplished players using open facings and very hard reeds with intonation issues too. One reason could be the increased jaw pressure on the reed to gain better control over a combination of equipment that is hard to control otherwise.
Mark
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-06-24 19:04
It's perfectly fine of one chef to criticize another chef's steak, so long as they are prepared for any comparison.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2024-06-24 23:59
Quote:
Back to the original topic, I did hear some accomplished players using open facings and very hard reeds with intonation issues too. One reason could be the increased jaw pressure on the reed to gain better control over a combination of equipment that is hard to control otherwise.
And I've heard accomplished players with closed mouthpieces suffering intonation issues: same with soft reeds, plastic reeds, long facings, short facings, etc. There isn't an equipment option that's going to play completely in tune. (And there isn't a player who's always going to play completely in tune.)
At any rate, the reed/mouthpiece combination is just one part of the system. The resistance of the clarinet and barrel, the resonance of the room, how the reeds are broken in and/or worked on, the weather, the way the player uses his or her air, etc. all matter quite a bit. And as Olivier says in that Vandoren video, he gravitated to his setup because it allowed him to get a particular blend and response that worked well with his orchestra in their hall. So I don't think it's fair to say he plays well despite his B40 and 4 reeds (who knows: maybe if you borrowed his setup and tried it yourself, you'd like it).
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2024-06-25 02:43
Of course, no equipment makes intonation perfect on its own. And sure enough, there are tons of variables contributing to the quality of intonation. But relativizing literally everything makes us agnostic in an epistemological sense.
All I say is that if someone plays an open facing compared with a very hard reed (I assume #4 would be considered hard by most players, even by most professionals) increases the chance of applying more jaw pressure to gain better control and this can be a source of intonation issues. Despite this being totally anecdotical, and thus it's not a valid argument itself, I can confirm that I heard some highly regarded players falling into this pitfall.
Mark
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