 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-04-13 23:05
I think, without passing judgement, that this forum is far less active that in years gone by.
I wonder why? Are there other avenues for advice that didn't exist in the past when the board was more active? Clearly Youtube has answers that its absence didn't, but it's not a two way conversation like here.
Are there less clarinetists?
Clearly, this board's software (or maybe its version) isn't the latest, I say void of judgement. Mark runs this on a shoe string budget. While bulletin board software like Xenforo may support a greater multimedia experience, I think its license cost, not to mention the conversion of 10s of thousands of posts to it, not to mention the administrative costs to run it would be a Herculean and expensive task. There simply isn't the sponsorship dollars here like on boards covering products and topics with greater market size than clarinets and their gear to cover this cost, and the Phorum software used here more than gets the job done.
Even if the niche of clarinet topics is a small one, the fact is that this forum so incredibly surpasses others on clarineting, where in other topics there are often numerous bulletin boards, like, for example, my other hobby: woodworking.
On a somewhat related topic, it seems that the world of community bands isn't what it was in the 1960s and 1970s. Still more Covid had to have an impact on new students taking up instruments during that period.
Thoughts.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2024-04-13 23:35
Second Try,
I hear ya' loud and clear but would like to add that IMHO, this bulletin board has become somewhat of a chatroom. I'm not much for social media but do know that too many new members spend too little time reading past threads but instead jump in right away and ask too many questions that have been already been asked and then answered.
Perhaps it has become too easy to just ask a question first rather than look at what already exists. We "old timers" had to deal with things like the card catalogue, no internet, and nothing was right at your fingertips.
HRL
PS US President Lyndon Johnson, a good old Texan, used to say "when you're talkin' you ain't learnin."
Post Edited (2024-04-13 23:36)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-04-14 00:36
Facebook and other social media clarinet related pages have lured people away from here which is a shame.
If you think this page is quieter than it once was, the oboe page is deserted by comparison.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-04-14 00:53
Hi Hank,
When you wrote: "Perhaps it has become too easy to just ask a question first rather than look at what already exists. We "old timers" had to deal with things like the card catalogue, no internet, and nothing was right at your fingertips."
A good point.
Actually, when I read that, the person I thought about was...me. Allow me to explain. I've done a fair amount of BB "searches" and honesty, I usually wind up so frustrated that I just give up. For example, I'll put in a word or a small phrase in quotes and after clicking enter, I usually wind up with literally thousands of replies. To me, that is both good and bad. Good because of the "treasure trove" of information that is available and bad because I just don't want to spend hours going through all of those responses. So...in an effort to save time, it's far easier for me to simply post a question. So, it's not just the newbies.
Also, because I believe that the clarinet is such a highly imperfect (flawed) instrument, every aspect about the bell, the clarinet body, barrels, mouthpieces, ligatures, reeds, embouchure techniques, effects of heat, cold, high and low humidity levels, harmonizing with other instruments, the decline of the clarinet in today's music, the miserable outlook for future full time employment, etc., etc.,...I'm beginning to think that everything that could possibly be talked about, discussed, dissected, and analyzed has already been done which leaves very little left to bring forth as totally new material.
Disclaimer: All of the above are simply my opinions.
Post Edited (2024-04-14 00:56)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-04-14 01:22
Having been emailing promos about my book for 4-5 years now I can attest there is no lack of incredible clarinet players/teachers. It's amazing the number of bios I read that describe the accolades of countless players. As far as fewer community bands-- there are about 2,500 of them in the U.S., most of which are amateur, some that are semi pro, and a few elite pro ones. But in the area where I play, there are fewer than there were before the MPTF dried up 20 years ago (they say it has rebounded somewhat). As far as other places for clarinet info., I belong to 14 Facebook Clarinet Groups.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-04-14 05:13
If we use the Board as mostly a resource of previously annotated answers that would naturally result in low, visible, day to day activity.
I would say I prefer the idea of the Board being a current, continually evolving entity. I can't speak for everybody, but I see this as a continuous learning experience. I've certainly changed my approach on many things and have completely turned 180 degrees on a few specifics as a result of what we've discussed over the years I've been active.
But the best thing about this Board is that it can be whatever we prefer. And if that means there are some months where folks don't create many new posts, that's ok too.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-04-14 10:05
I find that this board has become one almost totally dealing with clarinet gear. When I ask questions or raise matters related to interpretation, repertoire, technique, performance, etc., I get few responses.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-04-14 13:11
Questions that have been heavily covered in the past tend to get asked again and again , which means searching past threads is not resorted to as much as it often should be. On the other hand, less apparent activity on the forum may mean that there ARE a lot of people referring to old threads rather than posting the same questions yet again. However people view and use the forum, the fact remains that it offers a valuable service and a wealth of information. Internet searches on questions relating to clarinet tend to bring up BBoard thread results which are often the best offerings to be found.
As the BBoard evolves to a point where pretty much every question has been reasonably covered, it is probably somewhat inevitable that its activity slides into a more chat room, social media flavor and modus operandi . This may boil down to something the value of which is largely social between musicians,but perhaps this doesn't matter, as it doesn't really undermine the forum's solid content of information for anyone who is seeking that.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-04-14 13:41
Ps.
There is one quote that if find comes to mind whenever the nature of this forum come into question, so I shall share it.
"Be careful when you cast out your demons, that you don't throw away the best of yourself ."
:Frederich Nietzsche.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2024-04-14 18:33
I do think we've pushed a fair number of clarinetists away.
Plus, a large number have disappeared due to mortality, becoming bored, or other.
In that number, we've lost folks who made the bboard "mean something more." Folks like Ken Shaw, GDK, Tony Pay, Ken Legace, lmliberson, Seabreeze, etc. etc. (I'm drawing a blank on names right now, but there's our friend from New Zealand, and many others stretching all the way back to the mailing list.)
I can think of at least four professionals who have stepped away from the bboard due to treatment they have received here.
Any one of these individuals (and folks like them) had the ability to add to a thread and make it more than it had been. With a few notable exceptions, this quality seems to be rare now.
It harkens back to a thread title from another forum back in 2003, "The Clarinet BBoard: where the weak are killed and eaten." Luckily, there were a fair number of folks who defended the bboard, and swayed the opinion of that thread to a more realistic viewpoint. However, I do think the bboard has (at times) lived up to that notoriety - Not due to any mismanagement of the moderators or creator, or any flawed/dated design - but we have found ways to do this ourselves. (I can think of at least three kind posters who no longer post - simply because they were bullied away.)
Add that to the over-abundance of social media clarinet sites as alternatives, and the results will be what we see.
For what it is worth - many professionals I run into will respond with, "Oh, I forgot all about the bboard..." when I mention some topic being discussed here. This reminds us of the reach the bboard once had.
I don't visit the bboard nearly as often as I used to. One reason is that my life schedule has changed. But the other reason is - that there doesn't seem to be as much interesting discussion as their used to be. By in large, the people who had knowledge in the topics I am interested are gone. Thus, removing a large part of the reason I would like to be here.
As reuben stated - he asks some great questions outside of "just gear." I'm not qualified to answer his posts, but I'd love to learn from them. Unfortunately, many times the discussions go nowhere...my only guess is that many times no one remains here who can answer such questions from a standpoint of authority.
Chris P is here to offer guidance on repairs, and I deeply appreciate that. Others offer repair guidance in various and interesting ways too. That's all great stuff.
The gear (in general) discussions are less interesting to me personally, but I see the value in them for those who find such discussions worthwhile. Since gear is endless, those discussions seem to be a larger and larger part of the bboard's content.
Frankly, searching the archive is a very humbling experience. Not only on an individual level, but when viewed at a community level as well.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-04-14 19:24
I ran the clarinet mailing list for a couple years once upon a time.
I miss Dan Leeson.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-04-14 20:17
I hasten to add that I don't despise posts on gear; that I find them interesting, informative and useful. But I would also like to see more attention paid to purely musical matters.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: brycon
Date: 2024-04-14 23:24
Quote:
I wonder why? Are there other avenues for advice that didn't exist in the past when the board was more active? Clearly Youtube has answers that its absence didn't, but it's not a two way conversation like here.
It seems as though there used to be a lot more pedagogy discussion (but I could be misremembering, of course!). It makes sense that YouTube would draw a lot of those folks: whenever I need help fixing something at home, I go there instead of a message board. Also, on a quasi-anonymous message board, it can be difficult to evaluate advice; on YouTube, by contrast, you can hear someone demonstrate and know whether or not he or she is bogus.
Quote:
I find that this board has become one almost totally dealing with clarinet gear. When I ask questions or raise matters related to interpretation, repertoire, technique, performance, etc., I get few responses.
Kind of my impression too. I'll check in from time to time to see if there's anything interesting. But for the most part, it seems to be threads about gear or occasionally someone seeking confirmation bias for double-lip embouchure.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-04-15 01:27
I have belonged to numerous clarinet and scuba diving forums and facebook groups over the years. I think each of us has a number of areas of an activity that we are particularly interested in. After a while it seems all the questions we had have been discussed, answered, etc. On SCUBABOARD I find that the number of threads I start and posts I submit has fallen off greatly.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2024-04-15 03:21
This board, and its predecessor the Klarinet mailing list has been around for a hell of a long time. Answers to most questions can be found by searching. That's a great thing.
If it ends up being a repository of information and nobody feels the need to interact anymore then it's more than fulfilled it's purpose. Maybe.
It's a huge body of unstructured and largely unmoderated opinions about all things clarinet related. There's not much that can usefully be added to it.
The musings of people like Dan Leeson and Tony Pay and others are pretty much priceless. Those of some much more vocal people are somewhat less so. It's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff but that's how it goes.
Post Edited (2024-04-15 03:27)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-04-15 06:09
What Dibbs said. There's only so many topics about the clarinet (or scuba, or any activity) to be discussed without repeating them.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-04-15 06:24
Tom H wrote:
"After a while it seems all the questions we had have been discussed, answered, etc."
Dibbs wrote:
"It's a huge body of unstructured and largely unmoderated opinions about all things clarinet related. There's not much that can usefully be added to it."
Amen to both comments.
As I sat here thinking about what could be posted that would be new, fresh, interesting to hopefully a large group of members and came up with the following:
I would love to read stories about your last performance! Maybe entitle it: "I played out last night!" And then tell us about your group. How many players in total? Did you wear a tux or did you dress casual? What era or kind of music did you play? Did you play in a nightclub, a bar, or a fancy restaurant? Were there any temperature or humidity problems? How was the audience? Were they very receptive or just being casually nice? How long did your program last? Did any members of your group have any unusual problems? Did your reed make it through the event? Did you have to double on sax? Were there any songs where you had a fairly long solo? If so, how did it go?
Transport me by the use of your words to your last playing event and then describe everything that you can remember in as much detail as possible.
Yeah...I would really enjoy reading stories like that!
Anyway, it's just an idea.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-04-15 08:36
Dan-- A very good idea indeed.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-04-15 12:27
brycon: You have posted some fascinating and very erudite posts about musicological matters and hope you will continue to do so.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2024-04-15 16:21
I know old habits die hard, but I still find the board very valuable. Not only is there a wealth of info from years ago, but I still find nuggets of information in current posts that are valuable.
I know some say it is a relic of the internet past, but it may also be that the idea of taking the time to read and discuss topics is not the current fashion. Many are looking for the quick hit of some of the social media sites or YouTube.
I never agreed with the idea that this was a rough and tumble place. Yes, there were some people who had very strong opinions and even stronger personalities, but it was easy to ignore the bullies.
For anyone willing to devote a little time to searching and reading, the wealth of fantastic clarinet information here is astounding. You probably cannot find a better source for all things clarinet. Like all things, it has changed a bit over time, but still has great value. I appreciate all that Mark has done over the years and the work of moderators to make this happen.
Now, let's get back to discussing what is the best mouthpiece! LOL
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-04-15 17:56
Other social media groups definitely had a lot to do with it. I don't have those on my phone, but most people do, and they are set up to work with a phone much better than this and just about any other regular forum. There used to be a true and excellent instrument repair forum (only professional repairers were allowed to post there) that completely died because of this.
Also many of us who were used to forums before "real" social media are, well, probably still used to it. Younger people who are used to other apps often feel it's outdated, uncomfortable, etc.
Sure you'll have the occasional twelve year old who for some reason really likes this older format, but that's not very common.
I'm guessing the forum being down lately might have had something to do with hit too, at least a little. If you go to a page and get nothing for a few days you might stop trying.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-04-15 22:24
In considering the points discussed regarding this Board as repository vs. current social media, I thought I'd give some examples of postings that came "out of the blue" that were really important over the years.
The first example that comes to mind was a fingering for altissimo Bb. I'd never seen that one before and now use it almost exclusively......mundane but relevant.
Then there was a bit of a controversy over practicing a difficult passage slowly or fast. Then came a posted video of a violinist referring to the many difficult moments in the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto. He too referred to the muscular difference between moving slowly and moving quickly. His technique came down to starting with a movent from just one note to the next and making more of an almost imperceptible "flick," then building on that with more notes and/or moving to a different starting place along the troublesome passage..........definitely eyeopening and somewhat unexpected. I don't know if our most esteemed colleagues would have shared that particular video (or have known about it).
Most recently there was a discussion and then a video posting of a Marcellus student who took about 35 minutes to describe a 28 day break in period for reeds that seems to produce a collection of "bullet proof" reeds that I'd NEVER heard of before. In addition to this "old" technique that was "news" to me, the last few minutes mention that you should have a variety of different reed strengths available in your "quiver" for rainy days when you'll prefer harder reeds and dry cold days when you'll prefer softer reeds. After fifty years of playing and attending many pedagogical presentation on how to adjust reeds, THAT was brand new information for me.
Just a few highlights of........"The Unexpected"............and priceless
............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2024-04-15 22:26)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-04-16 00:25
ruben wrote:
> I find that this board has become one almost totally dealing
> with clarinet gear. When I ask questions or raise matters
> related to interpretation, repertoire, technique, performance,
> etc., I get few responses.
>
Maybe there are few current members who are qualified to answer those questions. Value the responses you *do* get.
Karl
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-04-16 12:53
wise words, Karl! Often when we ask a question, we more or less know the answer to it but just want to open up a discussion and maybe refine our own views or put them into question. "If you want to ask the right question, know the answer to your question." I can't remember who said that. I would like to add that I have made friends through and thanks to this board; people that I have met up with when they pass through Paris and with whom I have kept in touch.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ElizabethMH
Date: 2024-04-16 16:03
I like this board, it has given me loads of information over the years. Sometimes too much for my level.
And it's not loaded with ads. I joined a piano forum last year and it's a great source of information, but something happened last week and now it's got ads all all over the place - not just at the top and bottom of the forum or threads, but in between threads. It's maddening.
Junior and High school students are getting down to studying for exams now and maybe that's why they aren't on here as much?
Elizabeth
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2024-04-16 22:35
Just to say that I do value this Board, and that I very much hope it continues. The Facebook groups have some value, but are shallow in comparison - there's rarely much detailed debate. There needs to be a home for people with a longer attention span.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-04-17 01:34
The problem with farcebook pages being there's too many of the same types of pages with the same people on most of them discussing the same things and it's hard to keep track which page is which - at least this board is just the one board and not fragmented.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-04-17 09:58
I find the FB pages, by and large, self-promoting: pitching concerts, recordings, master classes, etc. for the people posting.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2024-04-20 02:36
Speaking for myself, I enjoyed reading and contributing to this board for many years up until 2019, when I had horrific experiences in both my professional and personal lives. I was left (figuratively) gasping for air and living one minute at a time. Music was the furthest thing from my mind. I couldn't have cared less about music, either playing it or listening to it. If I was watching TV and music came on, I would immediately mute it.
It took me about three years to recover from the trauma. I began to come out of it in early 2023. Then in November 2023 I got my first show in five years, playing tenor, clarinet and flute. A couple of weeks ago I got an oboe orchestra gig, and I'm currently having fun practicing for the May concerts.
I just happened to think of this board a few days ago, and here I am.
My point is that sometimes things happen to people and they disappear, not because they didn't like this board or got bored, but because life happened.
Post Edited (2024-04-20 02:47)
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2024-04-20 04:16
The endless posting of videos for self promotion has made the fb groups exhausting. It’s made me chose to revisit the Bboard.
However some advantages to Facebook is you can get a better idea of the kind of player is offering an opinion.
A casual player is going to have different priorities than say someone who is taking professional auditions and all the obstacles that entails.
James Garcia
Bass Clarinet/Clarinet III, Des Moines Symphony Orchestra
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2024-04-20 05:11
Chris P - Another problem with FB is posts just disappear today and pop back up next week.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2024-04-21 00:21
To James's point, it looks like we can add our "qualifications" by editing our profile on this forum. It might indeed be interesting and informative to know a bit more about who everybody is!
Amateur musician, retired physician
Delaware Valley Wind Symphony, clarinet 1
Bucks County Symphony Orchestra, clarinet 2 (sub)
Post Edited (2024-04-21 01:38)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2024-04-21 01:46
Slowoldman,
Good idea but I have always had my profile listed as well as my email address and full name. Missing though is that I have a degree in music education, was a high school band director for almost two decades, and I began playing the clarinet in 1950.
I look forward to reading your profile.
Hank
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2024-04-22 23:11
I put a signature on mine just now!
Or I thought I did... Never mind!
Reese Oller
Clarinet student (performance major at Millikin University)
I can play bass clarinet, Eb clarinet, BBb contra, alto saxophone, bassoon at a decent level, and flute in a pinch.
Post Edited (2024-04-22 23:12)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2024-04-22 23:37
I would be really interested to hear how many folks are still out here reading, but not posting.
Last time a poll was taken there were over 100 lurkers, and I didn't recognise most of the names. I am now one of them.
If you're feeling the need of a bit more variety, then you could just run a thread that explicitly invites comments from the lurkers.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2024-04-23 00:32
I've been following this board for a number of decades, since my college days. However, none of my students, even ones from two decades ago, even come on here. And no one in their generation uses Facebook at all.
Many of them are active in Discord and similar online communities, as well as on various other social media platforms along with the majority of the people they interact with.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-04-23 02:23
gwie wrote:
> I've been following this board for a number of decades, since
> my college days. However, none of my students, even ones from
> two decades ago, even come on here. And no one in their
> generation uses Facebook at all.
I thought the title of this thread was a little funny - moving on is a not really a sensitive topic.
Evolution of tastes. An email list, Klarinet, started a very long time ago (August 1992) on Bitnet, run by James Fay. It lasted quite a while - it was a publicly accessible list, but it was mostly frequented by academics at first. My first post there was December, 1995. I think I started managing the list in 1996 or 1997. The number of posts dropped to just about nothing at the end of 1998. No one wanted to use email as a discussion medium anymore. Myself - I think it added to the reflection time - I'm not so sure immediate gratification is such a good thing, but anyway ...
January 1999 is when this BBoard started - I took it over from even more rudimentary software than this. Been running the same BBoard software (essentially) since 2001. It's ancient but it works.
But ... things move on. There's a bunch of groups scattered here and there for musicians to join. I wouldn't use Facebook - it, too, is dated and you still have to find groups moderated by a "benign dictator". I hope mostly that I fulfill this role here - I try, anyway. There are some people who absolutely hate me, and some people I can't stand. As it is always.
We'll see what the future brings.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-04-23 02:47
Mark Charette wrote:
> Evolution of tastes. An email list, Klarinet, started a very
> long time ago (August 1992) on Bitnet, run by James Fay. It
> lasted quite a while - it was a publicly accessible list, but
> it was mostly frequented by academics at first. My first post
> there was December, 1995. I think I started managing the list
> in 1996 or 1997. The number of posts dropped to just about
> nothing at the end of 1998. No one wanted to use email as a
> discussion medium anymore. Myself - I think it added to the
> reflection time - I'm not so sure immediate gratification is
> such a good thing, but anyway ...
>
> January 1999 is when this BBoard started -
I was a little surprised to read this timeline. For one thing, I participated in the Klarinet list and I was sure that the BBoard overlapped - that the list was still limping along while the BB was gaining users. I'm also a little surprised that you only ran the Klarinet from '96 (or '97) to the end of '98. I remember you and James Fay as co-moderators. It seemed like it was longer than a year (or two).
None of my students has ever joined or accessed the BBoard, either, though I've occasionally posted questions they've asked that I couldn't answer. There doesn't seem to be a text-based medium that they seem interested in (beyond texting within their immediate circle of friends). It's hard to have discussion of any kind on video-based forums.
Karl
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Author: Clarineat
Date: 2024-04-23 09:09
I mean most have moved to youtube or reddit or other modern platforms. This forum is quite dated. The idea of "forums" like this, and literally the architecture of this forum surely came from the late 90s.
Not good or bad, just is what it is. Most forums don't exist anymore, so at least there's that.
Sean Perrin
Host of the Clarineat Podcast
Listen FREE at www.clarineat.com
hello@clarineat.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-04-23 19:39
kdk wrote:
> I was a little surprised to read this timeline. For one thing,
> I participated in the Klarinet list and I was sure that the
> BBoard overlapped - that the list was still limping along while
> the BB was gaining users.
The Klarinet list limped along for quite a while - I didn't turn it off abruptly. I think they co-existed for a couple years.
> I'm also a little surprised that you
> only ran the Klarinet from '96 (or '97) to the end of '98. I
> remember you and James Fay as co-moderators. It seemed like it
> was longer than a year (or two).
Maybe closer to 3 as it was disappearing.
> It's hard to have
> discussion of any kind on video-based forums.
Even at work with a variety of video-based interaction we don't generally meet all that much.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2024-04-23 21:12
I wondered if it might help to keep the right people in your community, if you had a pinned post at the top explaining the aims of the community and the rules for participants?
Here are the rules, as I understand them. Or at last those rules which I think are not obvious to newcomers. Rules like this would have kept me out of trouble.
1) This forum is intended to be for professional clarinet players, techs and equipment designers/sellers.
Generally our minimum requirement to join would be: [xxxxx]
When you join, please use your own full name as your username. Add a footer indicating your credentials along the following lines:
Clarinet player/tech/equipment designer (delete as applicable)
Highest level of attainment or yrs experience
Working/retired
Current equipment played
Current professional post or orchestra.
2) Before posting, please search the archive to see if your question has been asked before. The forum is not intended to be a chat room, but an online textbook which we only add to when we have something new to say.
3) New starters with funding: If you are looking for advice, you are welcome to start a thread asking if one of our regulars will give you paid lessons. We do not generally offer free advice to complete newcomers on our forum, as the problems really need to be dealt with one-to-one and in person.
You are welcome to read our archive.
You may also email regular posters who you think might be willing to give you paid lessons. You can find their email addresses by clicking on their usernames.
4) Newbies on a shoestring budget - clarinet playing requires paid lessons and equipment that is expensive to buy and maintain. If you are on a shoestring budget and would like to keep trying, then please approach a different forum as we cannot help here. You are also welcome to read our archive, where most subjects have been covered in detail.
5) Relative newcomers / keen amateurs - if you are super excited about ligatures, please do not post about them here, but go to another forum. Experienced professionals who need a specific ligature for a specific technical setup e.g. crystal mp and legere reed for a big solo on stage, are welcome to post about that.
6) Regular members - We would like to keep the discussion positive and helpful. If you have a problem with something that someone has said, please address that kindly within the thread, or approach the moderators (insert email addresses here). Please do not mail people offlist.
7) Although gear is discussed a lot here, we also very much encourage posts about clarinet music and performance and all other areas, so please do raise these subjects too.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-04-23 22:19
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Here are the rules, as I understand them. Or at last those
> rules which I think are not obvious to newcomers. Rules like
> this would have kept me out of trouble.
>
> 1) This forum is intended to be for professional clarinet
> players, techs and equipment designers/sellers.
I don't even know where to start here. Some people might wish this - but it ain't true. And there are two of here that are moderators. You might not loke all our decisions.
> Generally our minimum requirement to join would be: [xxxxx]
What??????
> When you join, please use your own full name as your username.
That's be nice, but no rules about it.
> Add a footer indicating your credentials along the following
> lines:
>
> Clarinet player/tech/equipment designer (delete as applicable)
> Highest level of attainment or yrs experience
> Working/retired
> Current equipment played
> Current professional post or orchestra.
Again, that'd be nice ... a point of reference
> 2) Before posting, please search the archive to see if your
> question has been asked before.
That'd be nice
> The forum is not intended to be
> a chat room, but an online textbook which we only add to when
> we have something new to say.
If that were true we wouldn't be having this conversation, right?
> 3) New starters with funding: If you are looking for advice,
> you are welcome to start a thread asking if one of our regulars
> will give you paid lessons. We do not generally offer free
> advice to complete newcomers on our forum, as the problems
> really need to be dealt with one-to-one and in person.
I'm sorry ... you might not like the way the advice is offered, but it's free. Some people use this forum to scrape emails and offer their services. While that's not generallt allowed in posts, I know it happens in the background. What I can't see I can't control
> You are welcome to read our archive.
Yup. A lot of knowledge there.
> You may also email regular posters who you think might be
> willing to give you paid lessons. You can find their email
> addresses by clicking on their usernames.
You might. I don't know.
> 4) Newbies on a shoestring budget - clarinet playing requires
> paid lessons and equipment that is expensive to buy and
> maintain. If you are on a shoestring budget and would like to
> keep trying, then please approach a different forum as we
> cannot help here. You are also welcome to read our archive,
> where most subjects have been covered in detail.
Requires - no. Paid lessons - from a good teacher - will be invaluable. The earlier the better so bad habits won't need to be undone. Of source not everyone can afford them, but that advice is none the less valuable. It's true for all instruments. I'm a self taught guitar player. Damned near lost all interest in it when I started taking lessons - after a few lessons I could hardly play anything anymore. My fingers hurt and I slowed down. But ... I went from a poor player to a middling player after lessons, and opened up myself to getting much better if I cared to practice a lot more.
> 5) Relative newcomers / keen amateurs - if you are super
> excited about ligatures, please do not post about them here,
> but go to another forum. Experienced professionals who need a
> specific ligature for a specific technical setup e.g. crystal
> mp and legere reed for a big solo on stage, are welcome to post
> about that.
Funny, ithat stuff gets posted all the time. There are strong reactions to "yet another [fill in the blank]" post, but the moderators hardly ever close them. But ... you'll need a thick skin and have to ignore some posts that aren't all that nice.
> 6) Regular members - We would like to keep the discussion
> positive and helpful. If you have a problem with something that
> someone has said, please address that kindly within the thread,
> or approach the moderators (insert email addresses here).
> Please do not mail people offlist.
Yup. Mailing "offlist" is a two-edge sword. Sometimes it's completely unwanted. Most of our members mail Karl or me if they want to "scold" a member. On-list we can contol it. Off-list - we can ask but there's nothing physically we can do - except ban that member if it's really egregious. We do on occasion.
> 7) Although gear is discussed a lot here, we also very much
> encourage posts about clarinet music and performance and all
> other areas, so please do raise these subjects too.
Please do!
Karl and I will never please everyone and everyone will not please Karl and I. But that's why we've had a long run. It's kinda like a long-running book club - we might no0t like all the titles selected, but we read them anyway and contribute as we see fit. There are personalities involved, and as you grow old with your members you see them as people more and more. Some of the best members have left - but the cycle hasn't ended and more "best" members come on lin or rejoin this community. I don't know how much longer I'll be doing this - I'll be 70 this week - but I've enjoyed most of the decades I've been here.
And as to equipment and such - my clarinet was misplaced in a move 7 years ago and I haven't replaced it yet, though I've learned of a few I should try. But, on my shoestring budget, it'll have to wait :D
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2024-04-24 00:00
Hi Mark,
Thank you very much for reponding to that in so much detail. I've been really confused about what the unspoken rules are, and it's really helpful to hear you spell it out.
By your definition above, it seems as though I do still fit here which is very encouraging. Having said that, there are many threads where it would have been a kindness for someone to give me this hint in-thread: "This is a digression from the current thread, please search the archive and then start a new thread if you still feel your question is unanswered."
I think there must be others like me who are reading in silence to avoid conflict, and who could maybe join in again with a bit of guidance on how to fit in.
I know of at least one very well regarded professional who has mailed me offlist to say that they are a lurker but don't dare post because of the fear of conflict. I definitely think that a bit of a kindly discussion of how to stay safe on the BBoard could really help bring people back.
Karl's suggestion to stay logged out while reading has helped me be less trigger-happy, which has been good. I haven't got a footer yet, but will think about it.
Thank you very much for explaining the rules.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-04-24 10:32
The one quality of the forum which I'm keen to see defended above all others, is the quality of civilized discussion. I'm not bothered by posts that contain elements of ignorance, as that is something which tends to be self evident assuming we all have minds of our own. More disturbing, and to my mind inappropriate , are posts which amount to rank pulling and chest beating while offering little in the way of reasoned arguments or solid contribution to the thread topic. Furthermore, I personally don't tend to equate such responses with anybody I would be inclined to consider an expert. An expert in my mind, is someone who can substantiate their position in a calm and coherent way if they choose to participate.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2024-04-24 16:40
That does sound good Julian.
My separate thought:
It sounds to me as though the big rule is "read the room", and the room might be radically different on different threads.
Perhaps we need to start choosing to read certain threads but avoid certain others? That way all different people can find a thread where they can derive benefit and also offer help to others?
So for example one thread might be an incredibly nuanced discussion between professionals, which very few people can really understand or relate to. In that situation the newbies can read, but would be best not to comment. If newbies do comment and derail the thread, then the people on the thread could just kindly explain that they are not having that kind of broad discussion and ask that the newbie start a new thread for their question.
Equally some threads could be much simpler stuff and that could be okay too. For example, a new adult learner, on a shoestring budget, may be looking for advice. They may be happy to receive advice from other recent starters who are working under similar conditions, but maybe 4 or 5 years further on. If the slightly more experienced people are willing to put the time in chatting with the new starter then maybe that is fine? In that situation it would perhaps be inappropriate for the professionals to come in and say "get a paid teacher and stop asking questions here". Instead the professionals could then just choose not to read those threads?
Does that seem nearer to what could be going on? Perhaps if that could be written in a pinned post at the top of the index, then it would help new starters to fit in smoothly and enable the community more generally to avoid battles that cause others to leave?
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2024-04-24 16:43)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2024-04-24 20:41
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Perhaps if
> that could be written in a pinned post at the top of the index,
> then it would help new starters to fit in smoothly and enable
> the community more generally to avoid battles that cause others
> to leave?
Nope. No pinned post. No one reads rules or they figure it doesn't apply to THEM. Ever read the "Help/Rules" link? Too many rules, many of which are ignored daily.
And I like the "read the room" idea. It's what I thought was common sense - what you've been talking about is the same you'd automatically do if you were entering a room with no one you know in it. You'd probably wander around, introduce yourself here and there, listen to the conversation, and probably ask a question or two to get started. Not a lot of questions. Just a couple. If you were a recognized expert on the subject they were discussing, you might interject yourself differently, but still be careful how you expressed yourself.
A forum should be no different.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2024-04-24 21:09
Thanks, that's good to know that that "read the room" rules seems to fit about right. That's really useful to know.
I like your analogy of walking into a room and not necessarily talking that much, or at all.
In real life the silent people are genuinely involved and present when they are in a room with people, even though they are not talking.
If that holds on the BBoard, and the silent readers are also genuinely involved and valued, then that is a nice thing to know.
Perhaps we silent folks could keep listening quietly, and just once in a while there could be a thread where all are clearly invited to contribute some small thing, just so we can be counted and included?
I really enjoyed threads in the past like "who is your audience?" and "where are you located?". Those were great for including people.
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2024-04-24 21:11)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-04-25 01:10
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Perhaps we silent folks could keep listening quietly, and just
> once in a while there could be a thread where all are clearly
> invited to contribute some small thing, just so we can be
> counted and included?
>
It happens fairly often that one of our many regular lurkers pops in and posts a question or an idea.
I was very interested in the thread http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=475548&t=475548 that started when you first joined the BBoard about your being a microscopist and your offer, "I've been watching videos on youtube about how people adjust their reeds and I wondered if there is any part of the reed that it would be interesting for you all to see under huge magnification?"
What followed were several intriguing photos with explanations of reed structure at high magnification. I wonder, given your clarinet experiences since then (July 2019), if you would find new directions to explore in that area. What actually happens to the tip fibers over time? The "heart?" What, now that you've read more about various "break-in" methods, can you find under high magnification regarding the effects of some of the different approaches.
Most opinions about reed conditioning, breaking-in, even storage are based mainly on players' conjecture and whether or not the result seems satisfactory. But I'd love to know what actually, observably happens to the cane.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2024-04-25 09:48
Hi Karl,
Thanks, yes, I see what you mean. I could think about that.
What happened to me in the long run was that I switched to Legere.
So my most useful discovery was that the Legere equivalent of a Vandoren Classic #1.5 is a Legere Soprano Saxophone American Cut #2. It took quite some work to figure that out. I've never put that on the BBoard, but I figure it could be useful for some other folks to know about.
I thought overnight about what Mark said, and I think that part of the problem for many of us is that the normal way to "read the room" and then operate in it, may be very different in our particular culture.
I think a lot of the guys here are very senior musicians, often men, often up to 80+ years old. I guess it would be natural for them to consider things in silence a lot of the time, and maybe they know a lot of stuff that doesn't need saying among other musicians.
I'm a stay-at-home Mum and a scientist. On the women's forum that I frequent elsewhere, it's considered kind and helpful to chip in, even when we have nothing to say. It offers encouragement and company to others who most likely are lonely and uncertain.
This is a really different way to read and operate in an online room, and I can see that the two systems could really be very incompatible.
It leave me a little uncertain about how to calibrate for this forum, which is a shame as I know that including women in music is meant to be a good thing.
I wonder if there's any way that we could figure out a common cultural position that would work for lots of different kinds of people?
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2024-04-25 11:43)
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2024-04-25 17:51
Thanks, Mark, for your reply about "requirements" proposed by SuunyDaze.
I like and respect the "open to all" aspect of this forum.
Tom Piercy
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Author: Sheffna
Date: 2024-05-01 06:50
#1 Yes, covid sucked and many people quit playing in school (I know because I went through COVID in school).
but #2, in high school, there are still lots of clarinet players
and #3, probably there aren't as many people on the forums because they don't really know about them, so less people are on here on and on.
Player since 2017
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The Clarinet Pages
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