 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LT125
Date: 2024-02-18 18:50
Hi, I have a question, it's very technical but hopefully someone here can clear this up.
On the Wurlitzer website it says "The mouthpieces for German and Reform-Boehm clarinets are identical" but some other makers (such as Gleichweit) offer different reform Boehm and German drillings on their mouthpiece models. What's the difference? I know German mouthpieces do indeed fit reform clarinets. Are reform mouthpieces supposed to fit even better (and how)?
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-02-18 19:53
I'm wondering whether an ordinary Boehm clarinet mouthpiece couldn't be used. I'm thinking of getting a second-hand Wurlitzer Boehm-reformed, but won't if I have to use a German mouthpiece, which I would have great trouble getting used to.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-02-18 21:45
By “drilling” Gleichweit is referring to the diameter of the bore. Though technically different, it will not be a matter of working or not working.
As far as a standard Boehm mouthpiece “fitting” atop a German clarinet, the barrel socket is about 1.00mm deeper and 1.00mm larger in diameter. You can just have a thicker cork applied to the mouthpiece you want to use on the German clarinet.
………….Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-02-19 00:21
Viotto had separate German and Reform Boehm mouthpieces, but if I remember correctly the only difference was that the bore of the RB's were a little bit longer than on their German counterparts. That was probably due to the general tuning level in Germany of a=443, compared to 442/440 in most places were RB-clarinets are used.
Previously also Wurlitzer had dedicated RB mouthpieces. Don't know how they differed, but if it also was only about a longer bore, I guess the same effect on tuning can be achieved just by a longer barrel (or pullout of barrel).
Ruben, a possibility besides Paul's suggestion is to order a barrel from Wurlitzer for Boehm mouthpieces. I started that way on my Wurlitzer RB's, using a Selmer C85 for several years (but later switched to German and Viennese mouthpieces).
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-02-19 00:50
Thank you Micke. Segelke also provides a different barrel for those who wish to go on playing with a Boem-type mouthpiece.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: LT125
Date: 2024-02-19 11:18
Ruben a reform clarinet does not fit a standard Boehm mouthpiece, but you can get French-facing mouthpieces that fit German/Reform clarinets (like the Vandoren M30D and BD5D). They feel just like normal French mouthpieces and use French cut reeds.
Post Edited (2024-02-19 11:26)
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Author: LT125
Date: 2024-02-19 11:26
Paul Aviles that's the thing, the bore is supposed to be the same (15 mm). And a German mouthpiece fits my clarinet perfectly fine.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-02-19 20:55
LT125, if your current German mouthpiece on your RB clarinet is tuning just fine, a dedicated RB-mouthpiece may actually not be as good for you. At least that was my personal experience when I played on a Viotto N1+2 - where my throat tones as well as my general tuning level went flat with the RB-version but were fine with the German version (I play at an A=442 level).
Exactly how the Gleichweit German and RB versions differ, maybe only Johannes can tell - or someone who has played and compared both. I however assume it's about the tuning level - so, in case you are sharp with your current German mouthpiece (or your throat tones are sharp), maybe the RB-version could be worth trying out?
Post Edited (2024-02-20 01:11)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-02-19 21:16
One tuning issue with German over French (mouthpieces) is that the German mouthpiece is a bit longer (though the bore volume is smaller.....overall). The added length makes the altissimo a tad lower. For me, I actually find that keeps my altissimo on a French clarinet more in line.
I throw this out since there may be (and I don't know) some similar tuning comparison with the German vs Reform Boehm mouthpieces.
.........Paul Aviles
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2024-02-20 02:26
LT125, it depends on your clarinet. RB is not really a standard between brands and even within a single maker differences have occured in time:
H. Wurlitzer has stopped making RB mouthpieces as their newer RB clarinets use German mouthpieces. But in de old days (1980-1990) the Wurlitzer RB clarinets were designed to play with their RB mouthpieces. Afaik the internal dimensions (chamber, bore) were larger resulting in a larger sound and different intonation, especially in the throat area and the altissimo. But modern Wurlitzer RB clarinets will be out of tune using the RB mouthpiece version.
So, a special RB mouthpiece is not always the "better" option. Always try before you buy.
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Author: LT125
Date: 2024-02-21 18:02
I'm playing a clarinet that is not considered a "real" Reform Boehm by many - the Yamaha YCL-856. It deffinitely has a German bore though. I tried it with both an older Wurlitzer Reform mouthpiece and a Vandoren German one. I preffer the latter.
But those clarinets originally came with Yamaha M3R mouthpieces, a version of the M3D for the Reform (well, "German Boehm", as they called them) calrinets.
I guess the difference really must be pitch since bore is supposed to be the same.
Maybe I'll write to Mr Johannes Gleichweit so I'll know for sure...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-02-21 18:14
Gosh, I don't see why one wouldn't consider this a reform Boehm. Yamaha still makes German system clarinets for the German market as well. At one time when there was a feud between Karl Leister and Wurlitzer, he vociferously endorsed the Yamaha Oehler system horns over Wurlitzer. I never got the inside scoop on that. Anyone?
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-02-21 19:37
LT125, I also have the Yamaha 846/856-set which I played on before my current Wurlitzers. I haven't measured the bores, but I believe them to be at least close to those of my Wurlitzer RB's - and thus "true" Reform Boehms.
When it comes to the M3R mouthpiece that Yamaha shipped with its RB clarinets (and also another marked 2 24 R, with their A/B set), they were all made by Zinner - as Hans Zinner ones wrote to me. The "R" indeed stands for Reform Boehm (Hans also told that the M3R was made until 1986, after that its designation was changed to 3MR, tip opening was 0.90mm and facing length 24mm).
Paul, I don't have any first hand sources, but at least the story (or rumour?) that was told when Yamaha first launched its German/Oehler system clarinets, was that Karl Leister had lent his pair of Wurlitzers to Yamaha who then "copied" them. If that was true, that would at least certainly explain why Wurlitzer wasn't particularly happy about Leister afterwards.
I haven't compared the Yamaha German/Oehler clarinets with Wurlitzer's, but when comparing my Yamaha RB's with my Wurlitzer RB's, there are some evident differences at least in the mechanics - and they certainly play differently, so at least their RB's were not a complete copy.
Post Edited (2024-02-23 22:34)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-02-21 21:34
Thank you Micke for context!!!! God bless the internet!
I don’t think there would be DIRECT comparisons made between a hand made horn and a factory equivalent. Only that the intent is the same. Further I hasten to point out that though the lower joint taper on the Yamaha CSG bore starts much lower like German horns and the top joint is 10mm longer like a German horn…….. there is NOTHING German about the CSG.
……………Paul Aviles
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Author: Reformed
Date: 2024-02-21 21:40
I'm also an owner of Yamaha 846 & 856.
I think these are much closer to the Wurlitzer 187 model https://shop.wurlitzerklarinetten.de/INT-en/clarinets-reform-boehm-system/no-187-in-a-or-b/kl-rb-187-b/. Other German makers have similar clarinets in their catalogues.
I have the Yamaha supplied M3R mouthpieces and some Zinner 3M/R mouthpieces, also a Zinner 4KR. However, I have come the view that these are the wrong mouthpieces for the instruments.
I find that the tuning is much better with a Zinner 2M or similar traditional German bore mouthpiece.
The difference is that while all are 15.0 at the bottom of the mouthpiece tenon, the "R" variants have much less taper towards the top of the mouthpiece. i.e. their bore is wider near the throat.
I have a couple of second hand Wurlitzer mouthpieces which are not marked R but have quite small taper.
Also current Maxton German bore mouthpiece have a greater taper. Note that Maxton also produced a reduced taper for a short time but abandoned this for the more traditional measurments,
Using some Mitutoyo calipers with 40mm arms I measure:
At bottom:
- Yamaha & Zinner R mouthpieces - 15.0mm
- Zinner 2M - 15.0mm
- Wurlitzer D4 & B2 - 15.0mm
- Maxton Clara-D - 15.0mm
- Leitner & Krauss P+4 - 15.0mm
At top (near the throat) 14.81mm
- Yamaha & Zinner R mouthpieces - 14.8mm
- Zinner 2M - 13.8mm
- Wurlitzer D4 & B2 - 14.29mm
- Maxton Clara-D - 13.80mm
- Leitner & Krauss P+4 - 14.1mm
The Zinner 2 M and the Maxton Clara play the 846/856 much better in tune for the middle twelfths (C/g, etc). These notes are horribly wide with the other mouthpieces.
However it is a struggle to play the German Boehms in tune at A440, so I've gone back to playing Peter Eaton Elites and pre-war 1010s with Zinner and Leitner & Krauss mouthpieces which have been drilled out to 15.24mm with no taper, i.e. cylindrical.
I hope this is useful to somebody - I have spent a lot of time and money on German mouthpieces since I bought the Yamaha German Boehms in Tokyo in 1988 or 1989.
I may have arrived at my views because everything in the UK is at A440, but I think Yamaha got the mouthpieces wrong for their German Boehms. Lovely sound, pathetic intonation.
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Author: Chris Sereque
Date: 2024-02-21 21:45
For a while I used a VD German mouthpiece on my R13, and I filed a bit of the body of the mouthpiece above the tenon so it would fit flush. I tuned well on my Vintage (the newer model, not an antique!) R13
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2024-02-21 21:57
The reason J. Gleichweit has different drillings is that different German makers have different size bores for their German-system instruments, though most of them are probably substantially cylindrical. Wurlitzer has changed their bores a few times. Since a lot of makers make reform Boehm instruments, there will doubtless be different size bores for those, too. The dropdowns for "drilling" on his website are probably not that helpful, but he's pretty responsive to questions, and he can probably help match a measurement of a bore, or a Wurlitzer made in a particular year, to a particular drilling. I don't know how much difference the drilling makes, and of course the best thing would be to try more than one, which is pretty easy to do with him.
Wm. Bainbridge
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Author: LT125
Date: 2024-02-22 11:03
Reformed, wow, thatnk you for the info! I'm in a 442 country so tuning is not much of an issue.
Paul Aviles the reasoning for not considering the YCL-856/846 true reform Boehms is that some people insist that a reform Boehm needs not just a German bore, but also all the additional keywork (articulated C#/G#, forked Eb/Bb... similar to a Full Boehm).
Call them reform or not, I'm very happy with my set of Yamahas (especially considering the price I got them at). I learnt from experience that often more keywork = more trouble.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-02-22 13:05
The term Reform Boehm (or Reform Böhm) was originally coined by Wurlitzer, when they first started making clarinets with German bore/French fingering (as their Webb-page says, "The Reform-Boehm Clarinet was invented more than 80 years in our house"). For a long time they have had three such models, the 188, 187 and 185. Only the 185 has the articulated C#/G# and forked Eb/Bb, but all three are still called Reform Boehms (scroll down at https://wurlitzerklarinetten.de/clarinets/?lang=en).
Also later makers of such clarinets, such as Leitner & Kraus, Dietz and Harald Hüyng are all using the RB term in the same way - for a great variety of models with differing keywork, but with the German bore and French fingering in common.
Only Scwenk & Seggelke has obviously deliberately chosen not to use this term, and thus just calling their equivalent as "French mechanic with a German bore" (their model 3000) - perhaps to distance them a bit from the Wurlitzer "realm"?
At some point what was commonly considered as "true criteria" for a Reform Boehm, besides the German bore/French fingering, was the double vented B/F# (or "Acton-mechanism") and the double vented G/D (or "Split C key"). While the Yamaha RB have all these, the current Wurlitzer 185 doesn't any longer have the "split C-key" (while their pictures on their Webb-site of their 187 and 188 models still have it, but maybe these photos are old?).
So evidently the "Reform Boehm" is a somewhat flexible term, but limiting it to only such models as the Wurlitzer 185 would just simply not be correct.
It should perhaps also be mentioned that while some makers of German bore/French fingered clarinets have exactly the same bore on those as on their German system clarinets (as Frank Hammerschmidt and Martin Foag), the others mentioned above have some differences - so while the bore of a RB clarinet could rightly be called "German", it's usually not identical with the bore of the German system clarinets from the same maker.
Post Edited (2024-02-22 17:33)
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