 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-01-25 20:34
I was wondering how many of you out there ( or perhaps your techs), are advocates of using a heavier lubricant such as grease, on those hinges most prone to wear, such as trill key hinge rods or pivot screws perhaps. To do this is clearly quite a bit more trouble than just using key oil for all.... so does it pay as a preventative maintenance practice ?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: lydian
Date: 2024-01-25 22:57
Never on clarinet, but certainly on sax where one lever has to slide across another surface. Keeps those mechanisms quiet and less prone to binding. I’m not a tech, but I do 99% of my own work - pads, corks, felts, fixing leaks, regulation, everything except soldering and dent removal.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-01-25 23:50
I use grease, very thick oil, or a combination of both on keys that are mounted on pivot screws. I don't like grease for keys mounted on rod screws, in particular ones that are fitted really well.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-26 00:24
Ok I have always been advised by the likes of William Brannen to use a thicker key oil usually around 30 weight for most of the moving parts of the clarinet.
It seems to me that there would be an increased chance of gumming up moving parts using a heavier lubricant as dust and worn particulates of metal become part of the mix over time (which also is an argument for relatively frequent cleaning and RE-lubricating every month or so).
I currently also do some audio work and find that same problem with very small electrical contact switches. It's better (in those cases) to use an alcohol solution that evaporates upon contact and cleaning so that there is no build-up of residue that can causes the switch to fail.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-01-26 02:40
I've seen some sort of dark brown grease used mainly by Selmer on their saxes, either in conjunction with those spring-loaded pistons in the ends of the long rods or slapped on key corks where it's done in a futile attempt to reduce friction when they could just use far better silencing materials than cork and the soft, high friction and deformable plastic sleeving used on linkages and not rely on using grease anywhere. They even use it in the key guides lined with teflon sheet where it destroys the adhesive.
I've seen instances of greases used by some other repairers - usually lithium grease which is a dark orangey-browny colour and that stuff absolutely stinks. The other type of grease I've seen used is a white grease and I've no idea what that is and I don't use it - it looks similar to Pond's cold cream. It could be some form of paraffin wax or beeswax based grease, or something else entirely. Whatever it is, I don't use it.
On clarinets and saxes I use gear oil on all screws and on the plastic coverings on metal LH lever pins to reduce noise. It doesn't hurt to add a drop to silence the nylon pins on Buffet clarinets. I've not seen any evidence of it leaving gummy residue and that's in well over 20 years of using it. On piccolos, flutes and oboes I use much thinner sewing machine oil on all the rod mounted keys and pinned keywork and use the heavier gear oil on point screw countersinks. Again I see no evidence of any gummy deposits left on the rod screws when they come in for servicing which is why sewing machine oil is vital as any resin will gum up the mechanics of sewing machines.
I can instantly tell when someone's used 3-in-1 oil on woodwind instruments as that leaves gummy residue on both rod screws and the insides of key barrels which causes keywork to become sluggish. Any oil or grease containing resin or similar gummy ingredient should never be used on instruments. Some people also seem to think packing heavy grease into point screw countersinks in the ends of long key rods in attempt to take out any wear or slop will work, but it doesn't.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: alanporter
Date: 2024-01-26 04:26
For the past five years I have used SX 75-W-90 synthetic gear oil with very satisfactory results. This was on the advice of a repair tech whose name I have forgotten.
tiaroa@shaw.ca
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-01-26 09:52
Maybe it's worth adding a few more details.
Some instruments, mainly cheap ones (and saxophones more than others), use a type of grease that over time becomes gummy and causes friction, sometimes to the point that keys don't move reliably anymore. Obviously using this type of grease for anything isn't a good idea.
I have about five types of grease, but only one or two for woodwinds. They (or any of the others for that matter) don't become sticky in that way.
I use a relatively thin grease (and/or very thick oil) for pivot screws because of the much smaller contact area. This works much better at lubricating this type of hinge compared with regular key oil. Both the grease and the thick oil are usually too thick for regular rod screw keys because of the larger contact area, though this can depend on the specific key.
It's fine to just use the same oil for all keys, but why not use the best type of lubricant depending on the type of hinge if possible?
As far as smell, neither the oil or grease I use stink or have any particularly strong smell. I dismissed one type of oil (which used to be recommended here occasionally) because of the strong bad smell (plus it was too thin).
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-01-27 01:02
Thank you all for those very good replies.
It would seem that the verdict on using grease as a keywork lubricant is a unanimous " no", but that gear oil is getting the thumbs up for the low contact /high wear points.
I think that 3 in 1 Oil was originally dubbed 0 in 1 Oil by its inventor just before they threw it in the rubbish. It must have gotten fishing out by someone in the marketing division. An old friend and ex workmate of mine back in Maryland used to refer to it humorously as "The Holy Trinity ".
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-01-27 11:10
>> It would seem that the verdict on using grease as a keywork lubricant is a unanimous " no" <<
I just explained the exact opposite...
For some (not all) hinges on woodwind keys it is better than key oil. Of course that depends on the specific type of grease and oil.
Yes 3 in 1 isn't good. Quite a few other greases are sticky as is and would be too sticky even for pivot screws.
It's unclear whether anyone suggesting "grease is bad for keys" has tried a good type of grease and specifically for keys mounted on pivot screws.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-01-27 12:25
My apologies Clarnibass for missing something in your reply.
So to try to resolve this matter better, if some greases ARE suitable for certain lubrication points on clarinets, which greases would those be ...and do they offer a significantly better wear protection over say...a gear oil, in view of the fact that they require the additional trouble of dismantling to apply them ?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-01-27 16:49
I've always used the same key oil on all screws and rods, but since clarnibass above recommends thin grease or very thick oil for pivot screws, I'm wondering if the CRC "White Grease" could be suitable for that?
I don't have it myself, so can't test it, but the product description says: "Sprayed as oil, converts to grease", and "Leaves a visible white, water resistant film"
Perhaps it could thus be sprayed just in the slot between a key barrel and its post, without even removing the screw itself - which of course would be handy?
A spray in itself is of course hazardous since it could end up "all over the place" (including pads, etc), but at least the product description assures: "Does not run or drip off." Also the spray on some such canisters are easier to control than others.
Its European product page is here:http://www.crcind.com/crc/CRCproductdetail.csp?division=&product=WHITE%20GREASE%20PRO
In the US the same stuff seems to be marketed as "CRC White Lithium Grease", in a visually different bottle.
Since I don't have it myself, I can't say about how it smells, but I have another lithium grease product for bicycles (very runny without converting to anything less such) not smelling worse than other mechanical oils - so maybe the smell is depending more on the "cocktail" of ingredients in each product, than just the lithium itself?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-27 17:29
Just speaking as a clarinet player and not a professional repair person, I have always done regular key lubrication myself. It does require removing the rods so that the old ("gummy") oil can be wiped off and new oil can be applied across the rod. The pivots should also be wiped clean of old residue before applying a new drop of key oil.
Yes, it takes some time, an hour or hour and a half for both joints.
Yes, you need a good micro screw driver (I use a set of Wera screw drivers).
I use the 30 weight for all parts.....very smooth action
and Yes, you need to do this regularly (legendary repairman William Brannen recommended once a month.....I lazily stretch that to two or three at times).
The effort is a small price to pay to keep your INVESTMENT operating at peak performance.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-01-27 21:02
>> So to try to resolve this matter better, if some greases ARE suitable for certain lubrication points on clarinets, which greases would those be ...and do they offer a significantly better wear protection over say...a gear oil, in view of the fact that they require the additional trouble of dismantling to apply them ? <<
OK it will be a bit long...
There is a huge world between "optimal" and "bad".
In "average" conditions, even without any lube a clarinet might be just fine for years. It's really a minimal load bearing. There are situations on some machines where (just one random example) not lubing might mean replacing a $10,000 part every two years instead of six years. With clarinets, unless they are under some rare extreme conditions, even without lube they might not need any parts replaced after years, and at worst case maybe some rod and pivot screws need to be made/replaced.
Considering this, oiling a clarinet is still better than not oiling. "Topping up" with regular oil makes more of a difference (compared with not oiling) than a "top up" vs. completely disassembling and using the best lube for each key. It's rare that hinges get very clogged up with dirt and gummi oil (a good type of oil is often still fine after some years and doesn't gum up keys). A good medium oil does get into the length of the bearing surface with a top up (tested).
To what length to go about it is really just a choice each person can make. Just because some people (guilty...) dive deep into it, doesn't mean it's that important in the grand scheme of things. If I'm already disassembling a clarinet then I would use both oil and grease. If a clarinet just needs a small repair, probably not, unless they specifically ask for it (which is rare).
I do have one type of lithium grease but don't use it for clarinets. I wouldn't use a spray. I have a small container of grease that I top up every few years from the large tube.
The way I do it is using a spring, take some grease and mostly fill the pivot screw holes, sometimes leaving a bit of a pocket and fill it with very thick oil.
For keys with rod screws I only use oil that I consider "medium".
A lot can depend on the specific key. For example, the first finger ring key has a relatively long rod but a light feel. The left hand pinky levers have shorter rods and significantly less friction can be felt (because of the shape of the keys too).
For example, if a left pinky lever hinge tube has significant wear, but it can't be repaired (e.g. small emergency repair), then I might use thicker oil for it. Ideal would be to fit the hinge tube and use "medium" oil, but it won't cause any real issue to how the key feels either way. For the first ring key I wouldn't use this thicker oil even with wear, generally.
To give some examples, I have two types of grease that I don't like even for very small contact area pivot screws because they are too thick and/or sticky. Ultimax grease and Super Lube (I forgot the exact model of the latter). I can't say a player will actually feel a significant difference... but maybe. You can actually feel they are a bit too gooey by just touching them.
The two types of grease I use are Type 1 from Doctor's Products and a non-Lithium grease made by Alisyn (the latter apparently originally made for aircraft turbine engine bearings... which might sound impressive... but it's just one of their regular greases).
They are relatively thin (for a grease) and not sticky in feel.
Doctor's Products has changed a lot since Omar died so I don't know if this Type 1 is similar to what they have now called "Doctor Lubricus". I know it's very similar to several other common greases... it's not anything unique... I just don't know which ones. It's light brown and pretty soft.
I also have Type 2 from Doctor's (not available anymore apparently) which is black, significantly thicker, but also not sticky, but not really useful for pivot screws (occasionally I'd use it e.g. for sax low Bb to C# touchpiece linkage). Probably also similar to some other greases but I wouldn't bother with something like this for clarinets anyway, annoying to get into small places.
Having said that... although it is better to use the best (realistic) option for each type of key hinge, and it's what I would, I wouldn't say it makes a significant difference that a player could really notice. It does make a difference, but have slightly more wear after four years instead of three that critical...? Mostly in some cases it might mean keys are quiet for longer than when using only oil.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-01-27 23:36
Hi Clarnibass,
Thank you for the detailed explanation.
So in general summary, is it fair to say that the ideal lubricant for hinging that takes a heavier beating is either gear oil ( a heavy oil ) or else a grease in the 0 grade ( slightly liquid range). Specific brands here are likely of relevance for their particular qualities and also some EP oils contain active sulfur which is no friend of copper.
Tom Ridenour seems to advocate some Superlube grease with the consistency of honey for the lubrication the trill key hinge rods.
Any more offerings on specific heavier lubricants ...key oils aside?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2024-01-28 11:49
As mentioned, it's not that important, though it is important to not use something that can hurt a certain material (e.g. a grease that can hurt nickel-silver, for example, or anything like that).
Gear and other industrial oils often have a lot of additives that are just unnecessary for woodwind keys. Most are fine, but I prefer some specific oils made for musical instruments.
So... what I prefer isn't necessarily much better than anything else. I just prefer it because I found it works excellent, doesn't cause any problems in the long run and I like the viscosity.
For oils, I use three types from Alisyn:
Valve oil, which is very thin, for valves, slides, etc. and occasionally some flute keys.
Heavy Duty, which isn't heavy at all, more like medium, it's the oil I use most and mainly for woodwind keys, like hinge tubes, etc.
Type #4 which is significantly thicker, for pivot screws, looser keys that are not fitted for various reasons, etc.
A reasonable alternative for these is Ultimax. Unclear who makes them (I tried looking but couldn't find it.. possibly Hetman but really not sure). They also have three good thicknesses, slightly different from Alisyn but good.
You can just avoid grease and get medium oil for hinge tubes and thick oil for hinge rods. The former would also get into the tube better when topping up. The thicker oil might require to disassemble the key, though it can still wick in there, it's not much with pivot screws.
Grease for hinge rods (mounted on pivot screws) I like Tribolube 12 (also from Alisyn) and the no longer available Type 1 from Doctor's Product. Maybe you can check if the currently available Dctor Lubricus (nice name...) is the same as Type 1, or maybe someone would know what that Type 1 was, as it was just a common grease (I don't know what and not one of his self made oils (like the bore oils).
Alisyn also has a Cork & Slide grease, which is my favourite cork grease, but I wouldn't use it for slides or hinge rods on woodwinds, too thick.
I would also avoid Ultimax grease, too sticky.
>> Tom Ridenour seems to advocate some Superlube grease with the consistency of honey for the lubrication the trill key hinge rods. <<
Honey varies in consistency to really say. Most is more liquidy. If you mean the company Super Lube, they have several types. The one I have is "Multi-Purpose Synthetic Grease with Syncolon®" (I think it's Teflon) and I would definitely not use it for woodwind keys. Too thick and sticky. Whether someone would even notice this... who knows. I got it with a small lathe I used to have, supposedly to grease the bed, but even for that I don't like it as oil.
I have a bunch of other oils, for various machines, in various viscosities, and the main difference you can see between those and the musical instrument oils is that the former is brown and the latter is transparent. I'm guessing they add stuff to machine oils that musical instruments just don't benefit from... but not sure.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-01-28 17:53
Thank you very much Clarnibass.... that's all interesting and useful information on the subject.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-01-28 23:57
I appreciate that this has been a geeky and dull question, but finding that one can pull a pivot screw on a relatively new instrument to find the oil black and inky with warn metal makes my engineering mind say "wrong lubricant". The oil is there...but not doing the job. It would seem that key oils have been adopted from oils designed for sowing machines which have very dissimilar bearings in that they are high speed and have much greater area, finer tolerance surfaces. All this adds up to a light oil being a right oil. Wind instrument keywork however, digresses a good deal from that mechanical description as I see it, so the adoption of a sowing machine like light oil for all the keywork hinging, strikes me as standard practice due for questing .
I'm glad to hear I'm not alone in my thoughts regarding wear prevention.
( It can get lonely being a freak )
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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