 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-01-02 21:28
The tip opening of a mouthpiece is of course one of many attributes that define it.
The material it's made of, the thickness of the rails, their length, the interior dimensions: these are but a few other considerations as I know many of you already appreciate; but tip opening certainly has to be "up there" in the attributes that play a factor in the way the mouthpiece behaves--personal differences between players notwithstanding.
With that said, from what I've seen, many a German mouthpiece--please correct me if I am wrong--appears to be pretty closed tipped. And yet, it's not uncommon to be using reed strengths as weak as 2.5--granted, German nor French reeds on them.
If if I understand this correctly it confuses me and I could use an explanation. In the French world we tend, all else equal, to use stronger reeds on more closed tip mouthpieces, and vice versa, and yet this seems (?) to not be the case in German mouthpiece setups.
TIA
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-02 22:26
So I speak from the “traditional German school of thought” on this. As you may imagine the Germans within the last decade or so have been experimenting more with French reeds and mouthpieces.
The German set up and acoustic ideal does in fact revolve around a MUCH more free blowing and relaxed set-up. The standard mouthpiece (their version of a Vandoren M13) would be a Wurlitzer M3+ (0.95 mm tip opening and a 29mm long lay……real millimeters not 29 half millimeters). You pair this with a German cut reed of a 2 1/2 strength. The mouthpieces also feature an A-Frame baffle. That is, when you look into the mouthpiece from the bottom, the baffle end of the tone chamber (top) is much wider than the reed end (bottom).
That said there is NO direct French analog. You can’t put a #1 reed on ANY French mouthpiece and sound German….you’ll sound like a beginner. This is also the problem of trying out the German set up without days worth of time and a really open mind. In fact upon my first trial I immediately deemed the experiment stupid. But I did, for the sake of saying I tried, play another 20 minutes or so playing exercises and a bunch of orchestral excerpts. I put my horn away that day thinking it sounded and felt stupid. That night mulling over the experience half asleep I realized in hindsight that I was actually getting a decent sound and a really good dynamic range. But you HAVE to have the time, inclination and opportunity to GIVE UP your French embouchure. Clearly this is not worth it for those with careers on the line. There is a long Chicago Symphony story that I will refrain from inserting here.
Finally, if you diligently watch Vienna Philharmonic (a “Germanic” group) and Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra performances closely, you’ll see a fair amount of “saxophone like” embouchures. That’s all I need to confirm all that I’d been told by Bas DeJong of Holland.
………….Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2024-01-02 22:45)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-02 22:27
So I speak from the “traditional German school of thought” on this. As you may imagine the Germans within the last decade or so have been experimenting more with French reeds and mouthpieces.
The German set up and acoustic ideal does in fact revolve around a MUCH more free blowing and relaxed set-up. The standard mouthpiece (their version of a Vandoren M13) would be a Wurlitzer M3+ (0.95 mm tip opening and a 29mm long lay……real millimeters not 29 half millimeters). You pair this with a German cut reed of a 2 1/2 strength. The mouthpieces also feature an A-Frame baffle. That is, when you look into the mouthpiece from the bottom, the baffle end of the tone chamber (top) is much wider than the reed end (bottom).
That said there is NO direct French analog. You can’t put a #1 reed on ANY French mouthpiece and sound German….you’ll sound like a beginner. This is also the problem of trying out the German set up without days worth of time and a really open mind. In fact upon my first trial I immediately deemed the experiment stupid. But I did, for the sake of saying I tried, play another 20 minutes or so playing exercises and a bunch of orchestral excerpts. I put my horn away that day thinking it sounded and felt stupid. That night mulling over the experience half asleep I realized in hindsight that I was actually getting a decent sound and a really good dynamic range. But you HAVE to have the time, inclination and opportunity to GIVE UP your French embouchure. Clearly this is not worth it for those with careers on the line. There is a long Chicago Symphony story that I will refrain from inserting here.
Finally, if you diligently watch Vienna Philharmonic (a “Germanic” group) and Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra performances closely, you’ll see a fair amount of “saxophone like” embouchures. That’s all I need to confirm all that I’d been told by Bas DeJong of Holland.
………….Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2024-01-02 22:45)
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-01-02 22:52
Doesn’t the strength grading relate solely to the cane density? Different reed profiles would then play harder or softer within a specified cane hardness. That might be a factor.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-02 23:30
SecondTry,
I have found out through experience that there is no direct correlation of strength numbers between French and German reeds. Yes, the German reed is slightly more narrow, however, I have found a 2.5 German reed to be "incredibly stiff". Whether it be strictly the density, the profile, or a combination of the two, I felt as if I were trying to get a "board" to vibrate. This is probably why German mouthpieces have to have such very, very long facings and very small tip openings. And, as Paul mentioned above, I found the embouchure to be very difficult for me to form because so much of the mouthpiece was inserted into my mouth.
It was not a good experience for me.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-02 23:47
The strength, 'graham,' is just one factor. There are German #5 strength reeds. As I try to explain there are acoustic results from the various factors AND what the traditional school of thought was in Germany (at least through the 80's).
Dan, don't leave out the very unique cut of the German vamp. First it is quite short, MUCH shorter than a French reed. It is also less rounded (not much of a pronounced "heart"). So the German vamp looks for all the world like a chisel.
I personally don't find a huge difference in German strength, though it could be (in my experience) as much a half strength more. A 2 1/2 German reed comes off more like a 3 strength French reed.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-03 00:21
Paul,
I personally don't care what a reed "looks like" as to its cut or profile.
I care primarily what it "feels like", i.e., how it plays.
And, to me, it felt like a "board" when I tried to flex it with my finger at the tip and played like a "board" when I tried to get it to vibrate on the mouthpiece.
Everyone's experience can be different. Or, as the letters state: YMMV.
'
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-01-03 00:37
I admit ignorance with respect to if there is any comparison between, say, a Vandoren V12 (french) 3.0 reed and a White Master (German Cut) Vandoren 3.0 reed.
Additionally, while I'm to understand that Vandoren grades the strength of at least their French cut reeds with a puff deflection test: blowing a known strength of air pressure a known distance from a newly cut reed: all reeds of a make and model being cut the same way, and noting the deflection: the less so the stronger strength the reed is stamped with; I don't know if similar tests are employed for German cut reeds.
So maybe I've wrongly drawn conclusions about the strength of German 2.5 reeds, that assume it generally softer than in actuality it is.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2024-01-03 03:33
It's been a long time since I have done anything with a German setup, but have very recently tried a wide variety of Austrian reeds in connection with Austrian mouthpieces for Boehm clarinets. I currently use a lot of Pilgerstorfer Exquisits. Their 1 1/2 is about a Vandoren 4, and that's the only authentic Austrian style reed I've been able to use. You get to "board" strength very quickly with the others. Leuthner puts out "Standard" and "Professional" "Wiener Schnitt" reeds. The Standards go up to about 5 and the Professionals take over from there. I'm comfortable with a Standard 2 1/2, and can work down a 3 without too much trouble. I tried the softest Professional and it sounded like a building ventilation system. So at least the Austrians do not necessarily use soft reeds. Many of them must use boards with a very closed mouthpiece and a very long table. I do quite like a free-blowing setup with which you do not require chops of steel, so my ideal probably isn't far from what Paul describes. But there's a lot of variation in Austrian setups, anyway, so generalizations are difficult.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-03 06:52
SecondTry,
A little while ago, I did a search for Vandoren White Master's reeds in numerous Vandoren reed comparison charts and none showed this particular reed. I then did it in German thinking I'd get better results but all of the charts did not list the White Master. I find it interesting that they were not listed.
I thought back to when I had a German mouthpiece and I remembered that it was a Vandoren D15 which had a 0.875mm tip opening with a facing simply listed as "long". Now, long in its French mouthpieces usually means a Brand 38 or 19mm. So, I suspect that the D15 also had a 38 facing length. The reason I bring this up now is that I wish I had done a little more experimenting using French reeds. I wish that I had taken a #3 French reed and, with a plate glass covered with an 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper, lightly sanded the sides of the reed to match the width of the German reed. The tricky part may have been slightly rounding the outer edges of the reed tip. I have no idea if it would have worked, however, I sure wish I had tried because I do like ultra closed tip mouthpieces.
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-01-03 11:05
"Long" in German facings means 40 and up on the Brand scale... like, REALLY long. The "curve" is very flat all the way, close to a straight line (whereas a French mouthpiece facing, though they vary, is usually relatively straight for the first half then more curved in the last 1cm before the tip rail) As a general/average rule- there are of course many variations.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-03 19:32
Thanks donald for correcting me. I try hard not to leave any info on this BB that isn't correct. I tried to find out the actual facing length of the D15, but, every website I visited had the same information as Vandoren..."long".
Getting back to other German mouthpieces, Vandoren lists the BD5D, M30D, and the B40D as being German sounding mouthpieces that use French reeds and fit in Boehm clarinets. I tried to listen to the BD5D on YouTube but couldn't find it anywhere. I did listen to "Alexey's Clarinet" where he went back and forth numerous time between the BD5 and the Reserve Evolution and I really couldn't tell the difference. Maybe other can, but, I couldn't.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JypSwvriVJU.
So, is the BD5 D really that much darker?
Has anybody tried any of the mouthpieces I listed above?
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2024-01-04 01:06
I don't know how representative they are, but Gleichweit sells German mouthpieces, and gives details on the length and opening. 25 mm seems the most common length, and the openings run from 0.91 to 1.11.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-04 03:17
dorjepismo,
Thanks for the info. Interesting...the Selmer Focus is listed at a 1.05 tip opening with a 23 mm (Brand 46) facing length. To me, the obvious difference between the two has to be the depth of the baffle.
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-01-04 11:31
My wife and I own and play a collection of M30Ds, I also have a BD5D and just sold an excellent B40D to a student (I liked it but had no need for it, she needed something good)
A bit busy now to write more, but will make time later on....
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-01-04 13:43
Attachment: Weiner cadenza (short) mp3.mp3 (1021k)
These mouthpieces (the "D" series Vandorens) bear very little resemblance to traditional German mouthpieces (for German clarinets) other than...
- the larger tenon (which most often will fit into a French system barrel, usually sitting out 1mm)
- the grooves on the mouthpiece exterior.
The facings are different from their "French" equivalents, so don't expect the M30D to be the same as the M30 (I DO like both facings- the M30 is a bit "pingier", the M30D more flexible largely due to a longer facing I reckon)
My BD5D is nothing like any of the BD5s I've tried, but still not quite right for me (it wants more embouchure pressure than I like to "engage" the reed).
The M30D and B40D are both a lot "duller" in tone than their French equivalents, but the BD5D is clearer and brighter than the French version.
I actually initially played an M30D a few years before I switched over, and rejected it as being too dark/dull (while noting that I found it really playable and comfortable).
A few years later my wife lent me one of her spares to use for a show (I wanted to leave a complete setup at the Theatre and not leave a valuable mouthpiece) and after the show ended I just kept on using it....
Here's a recording of me on it (Attachment above, an excerpt from a recital a year or so back, old blown out V12 3 reed)- I find the tone a little unexceptional when I listen to myself, but others like it and I've always been accused of being too bright and thin, that's no longer the case....
I believe these mouthpieces were developed for 1) French players who wanted to play German bore clarinets without such a radical mouthpiece change OR 2) German players who wanted to utilise some of the characteristics of a French mouthpiece and French reeds.
Post Edited (2024-01-04 13:51)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-05 01:30
donald wrote:
"I actually initially played an M30D a few years before I switched over, and rejected it as being too dark/dull (while noting that I found it really playable and comfortable).
A few years later my wife lent me one of her spares to use for a show (I wanted to leave a complete setup at the Theatre and not leave a valuable mouthpiece) and after the show ended I just kept on using it....
Here's a recording of me on it (Attachment above, an excerpt from a recital a year or so back, old blown out V12 3 reed)- I find the tone a little unexceptional when I listen to myself, but others like it and I've always been accused of being too bright and thin, that's no longer the case...."
First, donald, thank you for sharing your recording. If I understand your above partial post correctly, you are playing an M30D, correct?
I listened to the recording twice. To me, your tone sounded pleasantly dark and definitely not thin. If your tone was bright and thin, my hearing aids which have a very strong high frequency amplification would definitely have heard that.
What I heard was a beautiful, dark and engaging tone which was enjoyable for me to listen to and I can't say that about a lot of "professionals" who do mouthpiece testing on YouTube.
Thanks for sharing your recording and your personal playing experience with the BD5D, M30D, and your B40D.
Post Edited (2024-01-05 02:08)
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Author: thomas.b
Date: 2024-01-05 22:42
25 years ago I Played Wurlitzer M3+ and Whitemaster 3-3.5. Then I switched to Viotto G3 with Whitemaster 3. Actually I use Solist M ( wider opening) with V12 3
Traditional German are more close and longer facings which Need strenger reeds. my solist M works with V12 3 does not work with Whitemaster 3
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-06 02:51
The march up the strength in reeds (and opening.....or shorter lay) is the death spiral to playing the German clarinet.......with a traditional sound of course.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-06 10:35
Paul wrote:
"The march up the strength in reeds (and opening.....or shorter lay) is the death spiral to playing the German clarinet.......with a traditional sound of course."
Even though I strongly suspected that you were right, I decided to do some research to prove that you were.
I entered the following into my search engine: "Does a larger tip opening usually give a brighter sound?" And according to the following article https://artistsinstruments.com/tips/how-to-have-a-good-sound-on-the-clarinet/, the short answer is...yes. Here's the longer answer:
“The general rule is that a larger tip opening produces a brighter sound, while a smaller tip opening produces a darker sound.” And...
“A mouthpiece that is too open can make it difficult to control the sound, while a mouthpiece that is too closed can restrict airflow and limit the dynamics.”
In a posting above, dorjepismo wrote: "I don't know how representative they are, but Gleichweit sells German mouthpieces, and gives details on the length and opening. 25 mm seems the most common length, and the openings run from 0.91 to 1.11."
Although I couldn't find Gleichweit's German mouthpieces on Youtube, I did find Eric Black's demonstration of Gleichweit's Viennese mouthpieces.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXoaf9X0i00
Now, the reason I decided to include the Viennese mouthpieces in this post is because in the following article: https://bachtrack.com/interview-andreas-ottensamer-clarinet-vienna-berlin-mozart-may-2018, is the statement: “The Viennese system is similar to the German one but it has a wider bore so this results in a darker sound with a full body to it and always this roundness of playing.”
I next wanted to find out the clarinet bore difference between the Viennese and the German clarinets and I found this out in the following article: http://www.the-clarinets.net/english/boehm-vs-german.html wherein it states that the Viennese bore is 15.0mm and the German bore is 14.6mm. Also is found this statement: "...so the bore is about as wide as that of the Boehm instrument. With the German instrument, however, it again has the relatively long and completely cylindrical bore in common.”
Eric Black's Viennese mouthpiece demonstration included the following models: Gleichweit B7-1 (1.15@22mm), B7-4 (1.16@22mm) and B8-4 (1.19@22.mm) which Eric revealed are made of “a special mix of plastic”. Even though these models are more open and have a slightly shorter facing than dorjepismo mentioned above, in Eric Black's video, the creator of the Gleichwest mouthpieces, Johannes Gleichweit, assured Eric that "he could make a French mouthpiece that was true to the Viennese style that was capable of recreating these sounds."
To bring this long post to a quick close, I listened to Eric playing the Viennese mouthpieces and then compared that sound to donald's M30D mp3 sound demonstration of him playing the Weiner cadenza.
IMHO, the M30D sounded darker, however, the Gleichweit mouthpieces sounded much purer in the lowest Chalumeau notes where the M30D sounded rather raspy or harsh to me. (Possibly due to a higher harmonic content?)
Sorry for the long post. Hopefully, this post is helpful to others besides Paul.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-06 14:09
Well my personal story is that I played exclusively on the Wurlitzer German system clarinets, about ten years. I did not have the advantage of a lot of information about the correct approach and started with what I thought was a reasonable strength of 4 since that is what I played on Boehm. I did have a selection of a number of different sized Wurlitzer mouthpieces and finally gravitated to the M3+. Back then David Hite was taking dimensions off of everybody and anybody's mouthpieces to include Karl Leister (at the time). He said that M3+ was very close to what Karl Leister used but only off slightly on one dimension (sadly I never asked which one that was).
Toward the end of my Wurlitzer phase I became more and more discontent with the my results with the mouthpiece/reed and thought it was because I did not have ready access to the thicker blank German reeds such as Steuer and others. I tried to solve this with harder White Master reeds which only raised my level of frustration. I had heard of much harder Viennese reeds and assumed this was the problem. In the end however, I decided there was too much to resolve without having ready access to corrective measures and instruction.
Many years later I found out that the problem was that I had started with reeds that were too hard to begin with. It would have been nice to know that up front but I was trying to figure most of that out on my own. I only throw this out there to those who may want to try that path.
Pax vobiscum
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-01-06 18:59
Anyone know the mouthpiece reed set up Dieter Klöcker used?
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-06 21:05
When I woke up this morning, I thought about what I wrote last night. Right now, I'm not so sure that I really proved anything. What I'm feeling now is how impressed I am with the Vandoren HD mouthpieces. The tip openings are all above 1.1mm and the facings are far shorter than typical German facings. What I'm left with is architecture and a strong possibility that mouthpiece material really does matter.
However, since I have no data that the new Vandoren HD mouthpiece have the exact, same architecture as the non-HD models, it's impossible for me to prove that the "darker sound" of these models is principally due to the greater density of Vandoren's new HD rubber.
p.s. Since I believe it would be more economical for Vandoren to use the same molds for their HD and non-HD models (except for the B40/B40D model), this would mean that the architecture is most likely the same for the BD5/BD5D and the M30/M30D models. If this is indeed true, then, yes, the HD rubber has an affect on the tonal quality.
Post Edited (2024-01-06 21:40)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-06 21:24
Here might be a project for one of you guys. I assumed that when David Hite passed away that his records on everyone's mouthpieces was lost to posterity. Some of you may know what happened to his research. He attended many many international clarinet gatherings and asked just about everyone to allow him the opportunity to measure their mouthpieces. If it is attainable, it should be posted and archived on this forum.....if possible.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2024-01-07 05:29
Dan,
Just to clarify, my information on the Gleichweit's German mouthpieces came from his website, https://www.gleichweit-mundstuecke.com/en/mouthpieces. He makes a wide variety of mouthpieces aimed at German system, Viennese, and Boehm system instruments, each type different because the bores and playing styles are different. My understanding is that he plays in the Austrian radio orchestra in Vienna, and I assume he plays Austrian style instruments himself, but I don't know that, just like I don't know how "mainstream" his German system mouthpieces are among German players who play Oehler clarinets. I'm having some good luck with his Boehm mouthpieces though, which are pretty open. The specs for the one I'm playing say it's 1.19 with a 21 mm facing length. I tried out several and thought I'd like something more closed, but it just didn't work out that way. I don't know that "dark" and "bright" are that dependent on the tip opening, though. The chambers vary a lot from one maker to another, and that seems to me to have a lot of influence on the character of the sound, as does the curve of the facing and the profile of the reeds.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-07 06:14
dorjepismo,
I now see that the statement: "The general rule is that a larger tip opening produces a brighter sound, while a smaller tip opening produces a darker sound" is simply...flat wrong. The Vandoren HD mouthpieces range from 1.13 to 1.19mm with much shorter facings than typical German facings and they all sound dark to me.
So, now, Paul's statement about large tip openings create a brighter sound, as it turns out, is also simply not true. The baffle has a tremendous influence over the darkness of the tone (regardless of the tip opening) and the chamber, as I understand it, has a large influence over the "broadness" characteristic of the tone.
IMHO, even though both Paul and I were proven wrong, this has been quite an educational experience for me and...I like that.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-07 07:45
I would never say that a facing (no matter what configuration) made things bright or dark since I don't really feel those adjectives are at all helpful or descriptive of clarinet sound......particularly the German sound which is quite singular.
What I would say is that the sound of Karl Leister or Alfred Prinz is a result of the unique acoustic combination of the German mouthpiece facing, internal shapes and size in combination with the particular cut and strength of the German reed used......by those who produce that unique, traditional German sound.
I offer up what that entails as far as the German mouthpiece goes. I feel this is a good 50% of the main components of this German sound. The other is of course the German clarinet (either Oehler system OR reform Boehm which share the same bore). I should acknowledge that there is a difference between the Viennese sound and the German sound but that difference is far less than the difference between them and the French ideal.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2024-01-07 08:17
Paul, when you wrote: "The march up the strength in reeds (and opening.....or shorter lay) is the death spiral to playing the German clarinet.......with a traditional sound of course", are you saying that a Gleichweit German mouthpiece with a 1.11mm tip opening cannot produce a traditional German sound?
I'm not trying to be contentious...I'm simply trying to understand what you wrote. A 1.11mm tip opening, to me, is quite "open" when compared to a 0.91mm.
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Author: Murks
Date: 2024-01-07 14:55
Hello everybody,
i'm a clarinet player from germany and new to this board. I thought I could give some (useful- I hope) information because I think there are some things mixed up in this topic. Firstly, there is no (and was never) one single german school of clarinet playing. As I was on the 'Hochschule für Musik' (university) 20 years ago I played on a Wurlitzer clarinet with a Viotto N1 mouthpiece. Many of my fellow students played on something like that (opening approximately 1,0 mm and length (I think) 23 mm).You need to give the reed (through an quite open but well formed embouchure) 'the right tension' in order to let the air do the job. I played on Vandoren WM 3 (sometimes 2,5). In Detmold i.e. a popular setup. And it was known as a relatively light setup. But there are (and were) other schools of playing. Martin Spangenberg for instance (a former student of Hans Deinzer like Sabine Meyer) played on much more closed mps with much stronger reeds. The viennese style to play needs even much stronger reeds but through the narrow opening you have to push more from the abdomen (and take due to long lay much more mp in your mouth). I know that very well because in an audition I was told that my sound was a little bit to 'bright' for the orchestra and therefore I switched to a viennese setup (that was a hard time).This setup needs really strong reeds (feeling like a board ;-) and i could imagine the faces of some calrinettists if they would have the oppertunity to play on say Andreas Ottensamer's setup. I think most players on french system would be astonished. On viennese setup you don't need to set the reed under the 'right tension' in the same way as you have to on the more open german mps. There you can get a really big, substantial and warm sound. But the main difference in these setups is the different output. It reacts differently in dynamical changes and in articulation... and therefore you play in a different style. This counteracts in a different way to make music. For instance on a viennese mp it's not easy to play 'light phrasing ends'. The way you can dissolve a phrase at the end is different. Meanwhile my setup has changed again. I play on Gleichweit mps with a boehm facing. There you can get some of the substantial viennese sound compared with a lighter feeling.
But it's never true that you didn't need an embouchure and have just to blow. I can't explane it in short words, but basically it's nothing completely unknown for most clarinettists all over the world and no secret wisdom because basically it's nevertheless the same thing. You just come from another direction.
Hopefully my english is not too bad and understanable.
Greetings, Murks
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Author: Murks
Date: 2024-01-07 16:46
In addition to my previvous post:
One of the reasons I changed my setup was that the Vandoren reeds changed. The WM traditional should be the same cut as the old Vandoren WM but I doubt that. By the way these reeds are much harder than french cut reeds of the same strength.
And these reeds worked for me only on the open (1,0 or more open) Viotto mps. Spangenberg, Meyer... played on Steuer reeds, Spangenberg later on Willscher reeds. The austrians play on Pilgerstorfer (concerto, vienna...) or leuthner prof. (I don't know anybody who plays on Vandoren BM on a viennese mp).
Karl Leister played on fairly light reeds (on relatively open mps I think). Nowadays many clarinettists in germany play on open/ very open mps (Sebastian Manz f.e.). And there are many prejudices about open mps which are not inevitably true ('you have to bite on such mps' f. e.). Jörg Widmann (a musician I have most highly respect for) plays on fairly light reeds but with not too open mps. Klöcker played to my knowledge on a wood mouthpiece.
And I think it's maybe an interesting pastime to look after the setups of other clarinettists but much more interesting would it be, to look after the musical approach of these. Look at the Weber Quintett adapted for string orchestra and clarinet with Jörg Widmann and the WDR Orchestra (which is absolutely great in my opinion, beside that it's not my sound ideal) and compare it to f. e. with to the recording with Franklin Cohen on the chamberfest cleveland 2017 f.e.. Completely different playing and probably the decision to play on different setups is the different musical idea in mind. I think sound is just one aspect of that. And I think that everybody who knows how to play would make his playing distinctively (also soundwise) on every (working) setup, and the choice, which mp he uses is reasoned in the simplicity to produce this playing. But I admit that the school where you are coming from will have great influence on your way to play and to make music.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-07 16:49
Thank you so much for your input Murks! I think you can imagine that 50 years ago this sort of exchange of information was not even possible.
Many different posts ago I told the story of my "enlightenment." Bas DeJong is a player from Belgium who used to represent Viotto mouthpieces. He (and several fellow players) would look out upon the American players and wonder why there was such an obsession with embouchure. His statement about "putting the clarinet in your mouth and just blowing" was a comparison to much of what is common for American players of Boehm clarinets. He did add a caveat in conversation (I had a few opportunities to speak to him over the phone) that there is some support necessary to control the sound of course.
I was very tempted to speak of Ottensamer's sound but I would have been quite critical! He is of course an incredible technician and a fine musician, BUT you can hear the force in his sound and I am not a fan of his tone. Thank you Murks for pointing out that there are different approaches out there as there are here in the US. There were a few really amazing players from in the 70's and 80's though that were the German ideal of sound for us. I'm pretty sure that particular sound was from the "relatively light set up" style and was really what Bas DeJong had in mind when he directed me to the Viotto N1 with the 2 1/2 strength reed.
Dan,
Yes, I am saying that you cannot achieve that sound with an open German mouthpiece of 1.11mm. I don't even use a Boehm mouthpiece that open.....but that's an entirely different story.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-01-07 16:59
Murks,
Naturally one would agree that musicianship is the most important aspect of what we do. Mostly when the discussion of specifics comes up I set aside the "musical" as it becomes confusing. We use are gear only to serve the music.......but we do use gear and as you say just above, the approach we use serves to influence the musical outcome.
In the worst cases here in the United States folks experience pain in their lower lip with the amount of force exerted to control either hard reeds, really open mouthpieces or both. It would be almost impossible for those folks to imagine that there is a top professional "light set up." In fact there are a percentage of students who equate greater reed strength with greater ability. And that's not good.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2024-01-08 00:45
Paul,
Murks describes my experience with the Gleichweit: it approaches a substantial Vienna sound while allowing a large amount of flexibility in phrasing, and tone color as well. And a big thing is the ability to start a note exactly where it belongs without a lot of effort. But I do have had to take in a little more mouthpiece with the longer table. I remember the reed strength arms race in the U.S. from way back, and it was part of the pre-Pilgerstorfer Morée phenomenon. People had sort of a prep school nonchalance about saying, "Oh yes, I play a 5." Some really great players pull it off very well, but I never had any luck with it.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-01-08 02:36
Out of curiosity, and in response to the earlier question about the strength of German cut reeds, I just tried the following mouthpieces with White Master 2.5 and 3.0's (as a converted former biter, I believe my personal current embouchure to be rather relaxed):
1) Wurlitzer M4 (opening 0.88mm, length 24.7mm)
- WM 2.5: Requires a very light embouchure, but works just fine and exceptionally effortless that way. At the same time it definitely needs more airflow compared to typical French facings (as Murks said above, "let the air do the job").
- VM 3.0: Raspy tone, which can be cleared with a tighter embouchure, which however felt as wasted effort since I didn't experience any advantages in other areas that way over the 2.5 reed.
2) Viotto N1+2 (opening 1.02mm, length 23mm)
- WM 2.5: Just too soft, with all the negative attributes of such a reed.
- WM 3.0: Suitable with a relaxed embouchure, perhaps also a 3.5 could work still without becoming raspy.
3) Behn Overture (opening 1.05mm, length supposedly 17mm) - which of course is for French cut reeds, but since the tip opening isn't far from the Viotto above, I was curious about how the WM's would behave on it.
- WM 2.5: Requires definitely another kind of voicing compared to the two previous pieces, with a tongue raised as much as possible (as I experience it) - to avoid most disturbing resonances on chalumeau g, c, etc. With suitable voicing however, a clean, non-raspy sound (though thin, in my opinion).
- WM 3.0: Very resistant blowing, raspy sound, lots of effort and an unpleasant overall feeling.
To offer the Overture a possible revenge, I tried it also with the following French cut reeds:
- Behn Aria 3.5: Too soft, with the negative attributes of such a reed. Not resistant, however.
- Pilgerstorfer Dolce 4.0: Suitable strength, not resistant, a clear, "non-raspy" tone.
Conclusions? Well, probably most of this just confirms what others already have said above. For me personally however, it was interesting and to some degree also revealing with such a comparison "in a row" - which I've never done before. There is definitely very much more to the differences between German and French mouthpieces, than just a comparison of facing numbers would indicate.
How then about the "fundamental" question in this thread, the pure strength difference between German and French cut reeds - or in my case, the Vandoren WM's to Vandoren French cut ones? I can't actually still say for sure, but if a VM 2.5 is playable on the Overture (while a 3.0 is too stiff), and also a Dolce 4.0 is that - isn't a Dolce 4.0 about a Blue box 3.0? If so, then Paul above is probably right, with a difference of just about 0.5 - and a WM 2.5 would thus equal about a Blue box 3.0? But, as said above, it's surely a lot more to it than just that.
Post Edited (2024-01-08 14:00)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-01-08 03:27
Also Viennese facings are discussed here, where I'm extremely pleased with my Maxton flexilis "Alban" (when I bought it in 2021, it was advertised with a tip opening of 0.89mm and a facing length of 35mm - but currently, probably due to a differing measuring method, as a 0.864/28.5mm).
In case Dan or others are interested, you can hear it "in action" played by me here - in a live recording of the opening solo of the Sibelius 1:st symphony: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pcOlQDFAGR4I2zdoJf7mN1prjFDk1TLn/view?usp=sharing
As usual, good quality headphones (not much below 100,- USD I believe) or speakers are required, otherwise it will sound as crap (as with earpods, inbuilt computer speakers, etc).
It's also a WAV-file, not a mp3, since I wasn't able to make a such one without the sound becoming strident. Thus however, maybe not all kind of music players are able to play it.
My setup on this recording, beside the "Alban" above, is a Pilgerstorfer "Vienna" 3.5 reed, the Vandoren "Klassik" ligature (the stringlike), and a Wurlitzer Reform Boehm A-clarinet (with original barrel and bell).
Everything is of course very personal, but for my part - and at least so far - this mouthpiece has given me the tone most in my taste, together with also other desirable playing attributes - compared to any other Viennese, German or French mouthpieces I've tested.
Post Edited (2024-01-09 01:40)
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The Clarinet Pages
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