 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-07-13 02:11
While the R13 has been the mainstay of the Buffet professional clarinet lineup for several decades now, there are many other models that it has seen come and go in its lifetime.
So let's compile a list of the Buffet pro level clarinets that didn't have much staying power.
Here's a few to start off with:
BC20
DG Prestige
Elite
Jazz Festival
S1
... and now it seems the Divine has had its day.
Feel free to add more.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jthole
Date: 2017-07-13 06:18
Continentale
Super Dynaction
The BC20 was not really short lived; I believe it was in production from at least 1962 to 1979.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-07-13 06:29
It would be additionally cool to hear from any people that have played (as their primary or secondary instrument) one of these...for how long and do you still play it...why do you like it, etc?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-07-13 06:34
Chris P wrote:
>
> Feel free to add more.
>
Don't worry - I'm certain Buffet will add more over the next decade or so.
Karl
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-07-13 06:42
I had a couple of Prestige Elites, combining two losers into a single loser. They weren't bad, but also weren't good enough to justify the price.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-07-13 09:10
>> for how long and do you still play it... <<
There are a few S1, BC20 and Continentale clarinets around here still played. Mostly bought used by students as their first good clarinet.
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Author: jthole
Date: 2017-07-13 12:35
I play a Continentale Bb clarinet from 1972 (I am not a professional, but a longtime amateur player). In my price range (up to €2500) I have not found an instrument yet that I would trade my Continentale for. Especially after I got it set up like I want (key heights, and some minor tone holes shaping) it is exactly what I need in a classical clarinet.
For me, it plays better than the Buffet E13 and RC that I played before. I have also tried several Yamaha and Selmer models, but (again in my price range) I would not trade my Continentale for any of them.
If I would summarise the Continentale; it is a very "precise" instrument. Very focussed, even scale (but with some of the Buffet tendencies), and being able to play a very good ppp. My only negative would be that it is a bit reserved; if you regularly want to play FFF over a trumpet section, then the Continentale is not for you.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2017-07-13 12:52
Is it known why the Divine is discontinued? Is there at least an official rationale?
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2017-07-13 20:49
Probably because it didn't sell well? It has a really dark sound that is very focused but has little resonance and projection in my opinion. But don't get me wrong, there are people who do sound great on them, but some people don't sound so great on them
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-07-14 09:26
The S1 was Really Underrated. So few people got to play on these gems. They were special because they came with a reverse tapered upper joint bore, a takeoff or a continuation of what Hans Moennig started with the barrels then Buffet added this to the S1 in the 1970's. WOW! Wish they'd bring it back. Tuned well, sounded better than an R13 in general. Of course we all have our opinions. Don't jump all over me!!! The A clarinet was my favorite compared to the Bb.
I was dang happy to see the Divine leave the lineup. I hope at the ClarinetFest in 2 weeks we might see Buffet shock us with something really sweet, not too expensive, something that plays right out of the case, no adjustments needed, and you don't have to had select that 1 horn out of 60 that's good!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-07-14 09:53)
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Author: MRSax
Date: 2022-03-19 16:58
The Buffets S1 truly are hidden Gems, widely recognised by many users as one of the best clarinets Buffets has ever made. Much bigger rounder sound than the R13.
I have a pair and i have used S1 for 40 years , i also have three spair Bb's in mint condition.
I have used them on TV, radio, Jazz gig and tours and would never part with them.
They were very popular with orchestal players when they switch from B&H 1010, similiar sound but much easier to play and ideal for woodwind doublers.
The great American clarinetist Mitchell Lurie played on S1's and his grandson now uses them.
Production continued quite later in Europe because they were very popular in Switzerland where quite late s/n can be found well into the 300xxx period.
My first one was S/n 159000, my current Bb is 204000 and i have one 315000.
The latest s/n ive seen was345000 in Switzerland
I have recenty paired mine up with a Backun Fatboy barrel and the sound is enormous now. Great combination.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2022-03-20 13:57
I just love the vibrancy of my S1, so much so that I bought a second one with the extra Eb when they were cheap, just in case. They date from F129xxx and F165xxx. I have used a vintage R13, a recent E13 and now an RC Prestige; they all do different things and I did not care for the first two. I found the right setup for me on the RC by changing to a Backum barril, Charles Bay mp. I currently use it for regular playing when Bb, and keep the S1 for home, safe !
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Author: ndfay
Date: 2023-11-20 20:38
I actually own an SDA. Not many of those can be found!
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-11-20 21:28
Have some of these defunct models been turned into Buffet's recent models, with a few alterations (mostly cosmetic?)
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-11-20 21:30
The Elite, I hear, wasn't that well in tune. Michel Arrignon himself -its tester, didn't use for very long.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2023-11-21 00:33
That's a shame about the Divine. I suspect I was one of its only fans and I never had the means to pick one up because I live in the USA. What's its closest living relative?
Reese Oller
Clarinet student (performance major at Millikin University)
I can play bass clarinet, Eb clarinet, BBb contra, alto saxophone, bassoon at a decent level, and flute in a pinch.
Post Edited (2023-11-21 00:33)
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2023-11-21 01:56
oh dear, what's happened to the Buffet Divine? I tried one last year after hearing it in the hands of a pro and was seduced ! So fluid and instinctive to play, so effortless, such a thrill, heavenly ! But what a price tag ! (And I'm not into a 4 to 6 month break in with a 'green' clarinette) But if I ever see one used it will be a great temptation, should I live that long !
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Author: Patrick
Date: 2023-11-21 06:08
I see the Divine is still on the buffet website. I saw the Vintage was discontinued.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-11-21 13:13
Reese: I think la Légende is based on the S1, with improved tuning. At least, I seem to recall that.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2024-03-01 19:40
On the website, Buffet lists the Legende as a fully cylindrical bore. What did the S-1 have?
I would love to get my hands on an S-1. I'm currently looking to try as many clarinets of different makes and models as I can get my little hands on so I can determine what I like, and using those preferences, get my first pro Bb clarinet.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2024-03-01 21:40
The Legende has a small mostly cylindrical bore with a diameter of 14.55mm. The S1 has a tapered bore that is 14.75mm at its smallest and over 15mm at its largest, so quite different.
Despite its large bore, I found the S1 to be a bit stuffy and unresponsive compared to other Buffets and even the Selmers of the same era. I'm sure it may appeal to some players, but personally I prefer the R13.
-JDbassplayer
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2024-03-02 00:57
I'm lucky enough to have an R13, RC, S1 and BC20. Here are the bore diameters at the top & bottom of their upper joints:
R13 14.96 14.72
RC 14.97 14.67
S1 14.90 14.62
BC20 15.07 14.67
I don't doubt that individual specimens vary somewhat, but you can see that in all cases the upper joints are basically cones, tapering by about 0.3mm from top to bottom. That need not imply that they are perfect cones with a uniform taper, of course, and the "polycylindrical" terminology implies that there are parts of the bore where there is little tapering, balanced by parts where it is faster than average. But in any case, you couldn't describe any of these as cylindrical in the same way as a B&H 1010 or indeed some of the pre-R13 Buffets. For that reason, I've always been skeptical of the description of the Tradition and Legende as "having a cyclindrical bore like the BC20". The BC20 wasn't cylindrical, and although I haven't had the chance to measure a Tradition or Legende, I'd be amazed if they were. If you want the 12ths to be in tune, it seems inevitable that the top joint has to taper.
I wouldn't describe the S1 as stuffy, but it does have the densest and least bright tone out of the four. I've heard both S1 and BC20 described as RC forerunners, but for me the BC20 is the one that is more similar to the RC.
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2024-03-02 03:28
So, speaking as someone who has been told he sounds way, way too bright, would a naturally darker clarinet result in a darker sound for me?
If so, maybe an S1 is the right choice for me. I would just love to sit down with like fifty clarinets and decide what is perfect for me but that's hardly an option in my area.
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-03-02 15:20
No of course the bores aren't cylindrical, but they're "more cylindrical" (and have significantly less taper at the bottom of the lower joint). I have always assumed that saying they are cylindrical is just to keep things concise (if less accurate).
Re the relationship between bore size and resistance....
There is always this assumption that a "big bore" (ie something around 15mm) will be less resistant and more "free blowing" than a smaller bore (ie 14.6 at the centre joint).
If you look at extremes this makes sense- for the same length of tube a 20mm bore will have less resistance than a 10mm bore. And obviously to a lesser extent a smaller difference will exhibit a similar result.
However this does not take into account tone hole design- the S1 for instance has smaller toneholes (in some cases MORE severely undercut but not all of them) that are spaced slightly further down the instrument. This gives it the dense, sweet and focused tone quality it is known for (and at the same time, a slightly more resistant feel).
If you want an experiment to demonstrate this effect, get a length of plastic tubing the right size to stuff your mouthpiece into. Then drill a small hole that will act as a tone hole. Then drill the hole bigger. Then even bigger- each time you enlarge the hole there will be a corresponding change in timbre and resistance.
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Author: ghoulcaster
Date: 2024-03-02 20:37
Attachment: 1986 Buffet RC .jpg (721k)
Attachment: Buffet RH throat keys.jpg (128k)
Attachment: Evette Patent 1903.jpg (354k)
Attachment: Ellsworth Patent 1995.jpg (131k)
One clarinet not mentioned is the final rendition of the Full Boehm (and 3/4 enhanced) RC.
Somewhere in the late 70s or early 80s Buffet finally implemented three posts on the pinky keys, made the LH Eb/Ab diagonal, and seems to have slightly redesigned the leverages on the articulated G/C# mechanism.
This being the twilight hour of the full boehm clarinet means that this final design was only available for a few years, and I imagine most were sold to Italy where the full boehm was most established.
The Boehm clarinet was originally designed so that the B/E and C#/F# levers were coaxially mounted on a shared post (like the top two trill keys on most clarinets). Most manufacturers put them on individual posts since about 1920.
Enhanced keywork clarinets with a LH Eb/Ab key, kept a single post setup (with a second post being used for the additional Eb/Ab key). Early Selmers are like this, but they soon changed sometime in the 20s.
Ever since, Selmer, Leblanc, and most of the other manufacturers made the LH pinky keys have individual posts except Buffet!
Buffet was late to change even on their standard Boehm clarinets, I believe it was sometime in the mid 30s.
My 72,xxx 1962 full Boehm and 1969 “professional” bass clarinet still have shared posts for B/C# and C#/F#.
Since every key has a different distance it travels, they should ideally have their own post with the goal of getting the leverages as optimal as possible.
They are also easier to manufacture and repair when they are individualized.
Aside from that, Buffet had many different short lived articulated G# and fork Bb mechanisms from 1900-1930.
A short lived model that you might not know about has RIGHT HAND index finger keys for the throat A and G#! Patented by Paul Schaeffer in 1903.
A Clifford Ellsworth independently invented this again almost 100 years later and successfully patented it again.
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Author: graham
Date: 2024-03-03 23:28
Boosey & Hawkes switched from a single pillar for the E/B and F#/C# keys to dedicated pillars during the 30s. I have an instrument made around 1929/30, stamped Hawkes, but probably by Selmer, which has a single pillar. I think that change was a 30s thing in general.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2024-03-04 02:49
Attachment: toneholes1.pdf (15k)
Attachment: toneholes2.pdf (15k)
Donald: your suggestion that the S1 response was connected to smaller toneholes got me interested. It certainly seemed plausible, as I know that older Selmers are very free-blowing and they have huge toneholes - especially on the RH, you could lose a finger in them. But I realised I have a set of digital calipers that could measure tonehole diameters, although it's something I'd never thought to try before. The results are attached, and I found them interesting in a number of ways. I couldn't measure the top hole in the upper joint, but I could do the other 5 - so holes 2 & 3 are the lower two on the upper joint, and 4-6 are the three holes on the lower joint. Here are some points that stood out for me:
* The R13 has the smallest holes on average
* The BC20 is a couple of % wider than the R13 on average
* The RC is a mixture: upper joint very similar to R13, but lower joint like BC20
* But the S1 has the largest holes of any of them: similar to BC20 in the upper joint, but on average about 4% wider than BC20 or RC in the lower joint.
So it seems one must look elsewhere for the higher resistance of the S1. The bore is slightly smaller, but I struggle to believe that can make the difference. Undercutting perhaps: I can't measure that, though by eye RC, BC20 and S1 all seem to have similar amounts (very little on the upper joint, and less on the lower joint than the R13). I tried swapping barrels, but the distinct responses of the instruments remain. It's just a mystery.
Post Edited (2024-03-04 02:51)
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Author: donald
Date: 2024-03-04 15:21
Hmmm that's odd- certainly the opposite of what I was told by two different sources who both had worked at Buffet making clarinets. I would have thought that would be a fairly accurate source, but it seems not. [btw, I did make a mistake in my post- smaller tone holes would be HIGHER up the instrument, not lower]. There's no shortage of ways to ADD resistance to a bore, bell choke anybody? (can affect notes far up the top joint)
Thanks for going to the bother of actually measuring the tone-holes, can't argue with that!
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2024-03-04 16:37
Donald: you could argue, and ask just how accurate these measurement can be. I tried it multiple times, and it seemed that one can get numbers that are consistent to 1%, but certainly not to 0.1%. So I'd want to do some careful repeats if the focus was on the 1% top joint difference between RC and R13, for example. But the 8% difference between S1 and R13 on tonehole 5 is something you can see just with the naked eye.
There is also the usual caveat that this exercise is just one copy of each, and they may not be typical. I once saw a clarinet for sale that carried both the BC20 and S1 marks - it would be fascinating to know how that blew and what its measurements were. It did set me wondering whether Buffet really tried to make distinct models in the early days. The RC clearly is separate: it's a different length, and the "RC" gold letters are part of a single logo, made at a single time. But the BC20 and S1 labels look like they were stamped on late in the game. So is it possible that Buffet just made clarinets - but because different luthiers produced different products, they added stamps to ones that had particular tonal qualities? If so, there would never have been a specification for the BC20 or S1 - they would just be R13's that turned out a bit different from typical. 50 years ago, plenty of people in Buffet would have been able to give detailed information on this, but somehow it's all been forgotten.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-03-04 16:39
Talking of bell chokes, I had a Selmer Privilege come in to me lot that long ago where the player had trouble with altissimo F being unstable or kicking with all the various fingerings. The only thing that was different about this Privilege was an aftermarket Backun bell, so I tried it with a St.Louis bell and other older Selmer bells I have around the place and the altissimo Fs were rock solid with all of them. The Backun bell had far more of a choke (narrower diameter) at the base of the socket compared to Selmer bells, so that's enough to cause problems where you'd least expect them.
Remember kids, check EVERYTHING when going for an aftermarket barrel and bell and don't just do it to keep up with the Joneses.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-03-05 01:38
Chris,
Would you consider Moennig and Chadash barrels aftermarket?
Thanks
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Author: ghoulcaster
Date: 2024-03-05 02:59
Attachment: IMG_4188.jpeg (330k)
Does anyone know what is up with Buffet making clarinets with NO barrel in the mid 19th century? How could that have been a good idea?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-03-05 03:40
One thing less to lose and also denies the owner of buying the latest must-have barrel.
Oboes generally have long top joints like that and no-one cries about it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-03-05 05:56
Hi Chris,
I would agree with you. For a long while I have been 'dry socketing the joints on the clarinets I own. Either by shortening the tenon or by adding a tenon cap to lengthen it. In the middle joint this has resulted in IMHO a much more stable top E, and improved tuning etc which is often a problem note.
On Eb the Backun barrells IMHO are designed for a Buffet etc. On a Leblanc there is considerable internal volume and the bell notes are also flat. I normally either buy a long barrel and turn it down or use spacers. For the bell I shorten the tenon considerably and increase the flare length, its still a little flat. Generally this also reduces the bell tone on clarinet.
To me it appears that manufacturers want the clarinet to look good on the outside and hide the gap on the inside....
Back in the day when I had dealership I went through the warehouse and tried about 200 + barrels and about 30 bell. That original bell on that horn IMHO cant be beat.
Cheers
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Author: etaimanov
Date: 2024-03-05 18:15
Do shortening the lower joint tenon and increasing flare length in the bell effect a middle B tuning?
Did you shorten the bell as well?
Thanks
Evgeny
Post Edited (2024-03-05 18:31)
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Author: GoatTnder
Date: 2024-03-07 09:49
Regarding the Elite, I don't care how out of tune it plays. It's the sexiest clarinet I've ever seen, and I will buy it in a heartbeat if I come across one.
Andres Cabrera
South Bay Wind Ensemble
www.SouthBayWinds.com
sbwe@sbmusic.org
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-03-07 19:06
For my part, the Elites have been the best tuning clarinets I've ever tried out. Tried three specimens (B-flats) from a local dealer, just when they had come out, all three with the same superior tuning (with a "regular" Selmer C85 120 mouthpiece I played on then). However, since I liked the sound of the Yamaha Reform Boehm's better (the 846/856), which also had just been introduced, I fell for the latter.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-03-12 04:08
Hi,
On my old Bb I shortened the middle tenon to assist in lifting the pitch of the top D. It was a very small amount. A tenon cap was fitted to fill the internal space. On the A I did the opposite.
For the below
the tenon socket on these Backun bells is very long and probably ideally suited to Buffet rather than a Leblanc.
I shortened the tenon socket length to the same length as the Leblanc tenon which effectively shortened the bells length, and removed the internal volume of the long tenon, so yes
"Did you shorten the bell as well?"
Yes, that was the goal, for me I would prefer the bell B to be a hairline sharp or in tune. It generally raised the pitch as IMHO these bells are flat on a Leblanc. It is still a little flat, but better.
"Do shortening the lower joint tenon and increasing flare length in the bell effect a middle B tuning?"
What Morrie would think of me who knows:)
Post Edited (2024-03-12 04:42)
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