 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2023-11-18 00:26
I wonder If German and Austrian clarinet mouthpieces can fit on Boehm clarinet. More specifically, in Vandorens I've already seen M30D, B40D and BD5D fitting Boehm system clarinets. How about the others? D15,D20,D25 and W270? Can they fit Boehm system clarinets? I know D series require German reeds and W270 Austrian reeds.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-11-18 01:09
Jimis4klar wrote:
"I wonder If German and Austrian clarinet mouthpieces can fit on Boehm clarinet. More specifically, in Vandorens I've already seen M30D, B40D and BD5D fitting Boehm system clarinets. How about the others? D15,D20,D25 and W270? Can they fit Boehm system clarinets? I know D series require German reeds and W270 Austrian reeds."
There were discussions on this board about this topic.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=470943&t=470941
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2023-11-18 02:09
As I understand by reading this thread, fit is possible though cork might need a little sanding.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-11-18 11:15
The physical fitting may not be a problem but tuning, response/resistance might be...
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-11-18 13:02
I have in my boxes of mouthpieces various German mouthpieces + Vandoren "D series" mouthpieces.... let's look at what happens when/if I fit them on a french clarinet....
- Vandoren D series, play perfectly well with french reeds but I use a barrel 1mm shorter than usual as tenon 1mm longer than usual (adding 1mm to the equation, not really a big problem)
- Wurlitzer RB from the 80's (have several of these), tenon doesn't fit some French barrels, when it does plays well in tune with a German reed setup but awful with a French reed.
- Unidentified German (Oehler system) mouthpieces (I have 3). Fit French barrel, play ridiculously out of tune with both French and German reeds (obviously mouthpiece bore/volume doesn't match). When on the Oehler system clarinet they came with they tune well (this instrument is not i my possession)
- F Wurlitzer barrel from the 1960s or 70s, appears designed for French reed size (and appropriate facing). Fit's French barrels but 1mm extra length (Like the Vandoren D series) SOUNDS AMAZING but 12ths 20-30c apart.
- Original Oskar Oehler mouthpieces from the 1890s, tenon doesn't fit MOST modern barrels, but by some miracle found one barrel that does fit.... tuning amazing in the upper register but wild i the lower register (with German reeds, French reeds are not suitable))
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-11-18 13:31
Just measured the tenons of my M30D and B40D's, as well as on some of my Boehm and German/Austrian pieces.
The tenon lengths of the 30D/40D's are 18.0mm, as well as on my German/Austrian ones (18.0-18.2mm) - while on my Boehm pieces they are 17.0-17.5mm. Thus, depending on the depth of the socket on your Boehm barrel, there will probably be a visible gap of about 1mm. If your general tuning level is still fine, this would just be a cosmetic thing - but if you get a bit flat, you may ask a shop with a lathe shortening the tenon.
Then, when measuring the socket diameters, they are around 22.0mm on the 30D/40D's, as well as on my Boehm pieces - while they are around 22.5mm on my German/Austrian ones. However, as also indicated by the OP above, just the tenon corks on the 30D/40D's are a bit thicker - to provide a tight enough fit on German/Austrian size barrel sockets.
While the tenons on German/Austrian mouthpieces from some makers are too wide for Boehm barrels, these 30D/40D's can be fitted - with just plenty of cork grease - as in my experience - or by slightly sanding down the cork. Probably the same applies to the D15/D20/D25 and W270 pieces, though I myself haven't tried them in this regard.
I haven't played any of these D-series pieces on Boehm clarinets myself, but I remember seeing others here using them - especially the M30D and B40D ones, preferring them over their "non-D" counterparts. But, as also Donald's experience above shows - and depending on your own setup - be still prepared for possible tuning and other issues.
Since the bore diameter on Boehm and German mouthpieces is basically the same (typically 15.0mm), that in itself shouldn't cause tuning problems - but since the Austrian bore is wider (typically 15.4mm), the W270 on a Boehm clarinet would probably be more problematic.
Then there is of course also the possibility to get just a German or Austrian facing, but on an otherwise "real" Boehm mouthpiece - by at least manufacturers such as Maxton and Gleichweit (I have my absolute favorite facing, which is the Maxton "Alban", on both a German and a Boehm mouthpiece). Or, a Boehm barrel with an enough widened and deepened mouthpiece socket, to receive German/Austrian mouthpiece tenons.
Post Edited (2023-11-18 17:11)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-11-18 21:42
I tried the Vandoren German mouthpieces some year ago and the fit was odd for German clarinet........I'm not exactly sure what they were made for.
The VERY VERY best is Gleichweit by far! So his tenons are smaller in diameter to start AND he uses interchangeable o-rings to make for a perfect diameter fit in either German or Boehm barrels.
The sound and response is by far the very Best German mouthpiece I've ever tried. I had gone through the Wurlitzer route years ago as well as Zinner and Hammerschmidt.
Currently the mouthpiece that matches the "standard," "traditional" facing is either the D4 or D4-2 (designated for both plastic and cane). The tip opening is .97mm and the facing length is 24mm on the D4-2. The D4 is .98mm open and 25mm long but for some reason designated only for cane (that part I don't get.......I only have the D4-2).
And yes, the tenon is still a hair long for French barrels but if that slight difference poses a problem you can file it down quite easily
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2023-11-19 00:04
Thank you all!!
Despite the possible tuning problems on the Boehm clarinet, I think I want to give a try on the W270. I see V21 Austrian reeds are compatible with It. What range of strengths you think might would play better?
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-11-19 14:31
I haven't tried the W270 myself, but with a tip opening of only 0.72mm it seems a bit extreme to me, even by Viennese standards (the closest one Maxton offers is 0.757, and ditto for Gleichweit is 0.74).
As you've probably already seen, Vandoren's own recommendation for their V21 Austrian reeds are strengths 4 to 6+, so maybe at least a starting point could be in the middle of that - which would be 5+ (in the range 4, 5, 5+, 6, 6+)?
I've tried the V21 Austrian, as well as the Black Master Traditional reeds on other mouthpieces, but a funny thing with the V21 is that it has a shorter vamp than I've ever seen on any other B-flat reed - while the very long facing curve on Viennese mouthpieces would make you expect quite the opposite! Tonally it was a disappointment at least for me, while the Black Master Traditionals are a lot better (haven't yet tried the "regular" Black Masters).
However, since Vandoren's own recommendation to their W270 is the V21, maybe it's still a good match for it - but surely the both Black Masters would also work (on the other way around, they interestingly say all three could work also on Boehm mouthpieces, at the lesser strengths).
My personal reed preference on my Maxton "Alban" Viennese facing is the Pilgerstorfer "Vienna", followed by their "Pi", and on third place the Leuthner "Wien" (also Legere's German Classics works, for practice).
Since the very closed tip opening of the W270, be prepared to "blow hard", and also remember to take in a lot more of it than you are used to on Boehm pieces. Personally I've found everything below 0.85mm on Austrian facings to be too restricted in volume and also physically too straining, but I hope you will report back here about your experiences - also about the combo of a Viennese mouthpiece/bore with a Boehm clarinet (on my Reform Boehm clarinets, some Viennese large bore mouthpieces have worked ok tuning wise on the B-flat, while not on the A).
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