 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-06-11 17:11
I think I may have just paid the lowest price for a brand new Chinese low C bass from a major retailer:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274707243036
That's just over 1/3 of their normal price:
https://www.gear4music.com/Woodwind-Brass-Strings/Rosedale-Bass-Clarinet-by-Gear4music/RW0
It's sold as being faulty - the description reads:
"This Rosedale Bass Clarinet has a faulty octave mechanism caused during the design/manufacturing process.
Due to the condition of this item, this is being sold for spares and repairs."
That could be something relatively simple to fix, then again it could be opening a can of worms. Either way it'll be interesting - it remains to be seen. I'm expecting it to arrive early next week.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2021-06-15 01:09)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2021-06-11 19:15
I found one for cheaper, but mine was “open box” so maybe it doesn’t count. I found an “Accent” bass clarinet for $500. Needed almost all the keys to be refit and all the tone holes to be leveled. I imagine yours has similar problems, Then again I’m sure it’s nothing you can’t handle given your skills.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hSu35OzgB8o
I also had to completely redesign how the low D lever functioned as it simply did not work. This involves a lot of soldering but the end result is a very decent instrument.
Mine is now sporting a Buffet Icon neck and a custom wooden bell I made, it’s become my main outdoor/bad weather horn.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-06-11 22:53
I've seen that LH low D lever and the design is dreadful.
Going by the photos, this one appears to have the more reliable Selmer-style (and later Yamaha YCL-622-style) LH low D lever which lifts the linkage rather than the pinned one that slides about in the slot as some other Chinese low C basses have - not sure why they did that as it was a disaster. It's largely based on the Yamaha YCL-622II bass, except for the Bundy-style inline side/trill keys.
It's a shame it doesn't have the front low D touch my Prestige bass has, but it does have the thumb low D touch in a better place than Buffets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2021-06-13 01:47)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-06-12 20:46
Well - things progressed even faster than I expected as it arrived at 3pm today. I didn't expect couriers to collect on a Friday and deliver on a Saturday, so fair play to DPD for getting it to me ultra quick.
I'm woefully disappointed - absolutely gutted as when I unboxed it, my heart sunk as it didn't come with the most important part which all Chinese instruments should be supplied with - the pair of ill-fitting white cotton gloves. I feel short changed and will be emailing the manager to express my utter dismay.
Anyway, lack of ill-fitting white cotton gloves aside, the only problem it had causing the speaker mechanism not to work (which was the reason it was heavily discounted) was the crook key which was binding on the rod screw and easily taken care of by putting a 2mm reamer though it, deburring the ends and that got it working exactly as it should do.
As is expected with Chinese instruments, they use natural cork almost everywhere and that causes far too much friction on many of the sliding linkages, so that's best replaced with low friction materials like ultrasuede or tech cork coated with graphite or with thin teflon sheet stuck to it or heat shrink teflon tubing slipped over some linkages. On closer inspection, there's some sort of thin woven material stuck to the key and linkage corks that experience a significant amount of sliding, but it's not staying put.
Unless you're in a position to work on anything or have the funds put by for any extra work that needs doing, then I wouldn't advise anyone buy one of these if you don't have the means to deal with the problems they'll inevitably have.
And how does it play? IT PLAYS! I did some minor tweaks as some things were out of adjustment - especially the lower joint from low Eb downwards, but bending things here and there put things right and a low G to low D/Db/C slur can be done with either the LH low D key or the thumb keys.
Although it's listed as having silver plated keys, crook and bell, it was clearly obvious from the photos it's all nickel plated, which it is. I don't have a problem with that and I was expecting it to be in nickel plate, but for someone with a nickel allergy, that could be a problem.
Tonewise it's not nearly as bold as my Buffet, the upper register G needs some coaxing to get it to speak cleanly straight off and I can feel the whole instrument flexing as I'm playing it. But for a grand total of £580 all in as opposed to around £1500 or even more for an identical bass, what should I expect?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2021-06-13 02:16)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-06-14 00:40
I've already taken the lower joint apart to replace all the key corks and make other tweaks to get it playing better and noticed on the RH main action, the recesses filed out for the RH 1 and 2 adjusting screw tips have gone through what would normally be a solid bar. I'm going to have to fill them in by soldering in a piece of brass rod into holes drilled perpendicular into the bar so the nylon tips of the adjusting screw tips don't get caught in the holes.
I also noticed the point screw countersinks in the ends of the long rods were taking in a lot of oil and thought maybe they've drilled the pilot holes a bit deep before countersinking them. But all the oil I was applying was vanishing rather than filling up the countersinks as it should normally do.
Then I looked into the end of one of the long key rods and could see all the way through from one end to the other! All the long rods which should be solid have a pilot hole around 1.5mm in diameter going all the way through them. And everywhere they've used what should be a solid piece of rod is also hollow.
The roller linkages on the lower joint won't roll as the screws they're meant to roll on have been plated while assembled, just like painting a widow or door shut. And even if they were meant to roll, the screw fitting to lock them onto the slots won't allow that as they're too short and even if they were fitted better, the whole roller assembly wouldn't be able to lock itself securely in the slots.
The short 2mm diameter rod screws have very short threads and sink too deep into the pillar heads when they're done up and most of the needle springs are drilled too low in the pillars, so I've had to put double bends in them so they sit parallel with the undersides of the key rods.
There are good points as the point screws are all fitting well rather than being bodged and the padding is generally good on the whole - the instrument has white leather pads throughout (most having metal resonators) except for the speaker vents which are cork padded. The bore and toneholes are all nice and clean with no burrs or jagged edges, but the crook tenon, mouthpiece socket and tuning inner slide do have burrs on the ends which needed removing.
I wasn't expecting too much from the general build quality and I can't say I'm disappointed, as I was already prepared to see loads of build quality issues once I took to it with a screwdriver. For the price I paid, I'm not completely disappointed, but more surprised especially by the hollow rods used throughout. I think if I had paid some of the prices I've seen for an identical bass - some prices being around four or even more times what I bought mine for, then I'd have more reason to be disappointed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2021-06-15 20:40)
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2021-06-15 10:32
I'm very interested to hear how well you are able to get it playing once you've gone through it and fixed it up. Assuming that's the plan, of course.
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Author: rfunes
Date: 2021-06-15 17:11
Thanks for this review, it was scary enough that I am never going to buy any no-brand bass if this is the amount of repair that one needs to do before it actually is playable.
I understand that even new instruments should go to a technician for fine tuning, but the amount of issues you had on this chinese instrument is too much for my tastes.
I guess the best option would be to buy one already fixed, or an older instrument from a more reputable brand that has a better build quality and will keep the adjustments.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-06-15 20:39
It's not as bad as some Chinese instruments I've seen, but it's still a case of buyer beware if you're paying full price for however much these basses sell for which is anything from around £750 plus postage and duty from eBay (which can bump the price up to over £1000 depending on your location) to around £1500 to £2500 or more from some retailers, but will still have the usual problems unless they have been taken apart and have all the issues addressed (within reason) to make the instrument more reliable.
I've remade and added extra adjusting screws to mine and am currently tackling the automatic speaker mechanism to get it working much smoother which isn't helped by the rocker being a sloppy fit which I'll most likely deal with by using teflon tubing.
It really benefitted from having the main action and lower joint spring tensions backed off as that makes it feel more positive under the fingers instead of fighting against heavy springing. The LH D lever acts on a very short linkage arm which makes it feel heavy, even with low friction silencing materials used and the spring tension reduced as much as is possible. Buffet addressed that by using much longer linkages for a far more balanced and lighter feel, but this is heavily based on Yamaha 622 which in turn has borrowed heavily from older Selmers.
The alloy used for the keywork is much stronger than I was expecting as cheap basses are notorious for having bendy keywork - drilling through some of the keys to tap and fit adjusting screws definitely took some doing compared to some instruments where they felt like drilling through lead. I think it's most likely cupronickel as the swarf is very silvery instead of pale yellow like nickel sllver.
I can sort of understand why they've used hollow key rods as at least that way all the point screw countersinks are concentric which can easily be done freehand without any risk of them going off-centre.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-06-16 00:52
Attachment: P2120003 (2).JPG (717k)
All finished now and this bass is playing like a dream! The upper register is much better but the iffy upper G is down to an acoustic problem rather than a mechanical one. I've increased the ventings across the entire instrument and it's far less resistant than it was.
The speaker mechanism problems have been dealt with and that's all working well and switching over nicely without binding up. The main part of the speaker mechanism was binding up when the long rod screw was fully tightened, but backing it off freed things up and the rod screw thread is still holding itself securely in the lower pillar. I could always fit a grub screw going into the pillar from the opposite side of the rod screw to lock it in better.
I'm toying with the idea of adding an arm to the RH main action to link it to close the C#/G# pad cup - something along the lines of the type of bend seen on the F#-G# link on Loree instruments with two bends in it instead of a curved arm or one with a right angle bend like on Malerne basses.
And now I can safely say I don't regret buying it as it turned into a much better player than I had initially hoped for. At least now I know I won't be stuck with a bass clarinet-shaped ornament should I decide to sell it on at a later date.
As a finishing touch, I found a gold oval 'Made in China' sticker which I've stuck on the top joint above the throat A pad cup as there's no logo on the top joint.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2021-06-17 15:56
Chris,
thanks a lot for your detailed assesment. Having tried one, I totally agree with your opinion on these basses being somewhat poorly set up. How did you solve the issue with the hollow rods? Maybe use a thin grease instead for lubrication?
Would you say that one could as well just order a bass from aliexpress and get the same thing? For 1,8k€, I cannot recommend this to a fellow bass clarinet player. Yet, I'm afraid these low C basses are sold in different qualities, but we'll never know...
Best regards
Christian
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2021-06-17 18:19
Just out of curiosity: What was your reason for buying it? For outdoor use?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-06-17 19:03
On the Selmer-style one, the low D lever linkage is unreliable as it slides around in the slot before it does anything if it even does anything, although the slot in the linkage arm could be filled in and redrilled to a round or slightly oval hole to prevent the pin from sliding around for a more reliable action. Having a much longer leverage, the LH low D lever would probably feel better balanced.
The Yamaha-style one has a heavy LH low D lever as the linkage piece/leverage to the low D key is very short, which in turn has to operate both the low E and low D pad cups. I've added teflon tubing to reduce the friction at the linkage end as much as is possible which has helped, although you are held to ransom by how lightly you can get the spring tension to still make the action feel positive.
The keywork on the Selmer-style one I did see a few years back felt very spongy under the fingers - while mine also has some flexing which is to be expected with such long levers and torsion in the long rods, it's not as bad as some Chinese basses.
It was the ridiculously low price which was the main incentive to buy it and it was definitely a gamble. Now I know it's a player after spending time to go over it, I'll be using it where I'd rather not risk my Prestige bass coming to nay harm - definitely an outdoor or cold conditions bass. I do have to work a bit harder to get a full sound from it, but that could be of benefit rather than a curse.
I forgot to mention the tonehole bedplaces/countersinks were all nicely cut with no chips or rough edges in them that woud otherwise compromise pad life. There are some rough edges where they meet the bore, but that's often the case with ebonite when the cutters break through which could be addressed with some slight undercutting to neaten them, not that it's really necessary on a low cost bass.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2021-06-18 00:18)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-11-10 02:51
I've currently got an Odyssey Premiere low C bass in for a full service as I let the owner of it try my Rosedale bass the other week and she couldn't believe how much easier it was to play compared to hers which hasn't had any proper setting up or anything from the day she bought it. The only reason I had her play it was one of the clarinet players wanted to buy it off me, so I took the opportunity for her to put it through its paces for him. He bought it, so all's good. Now the owner of the Odyssey bass wants it to play as easily as my Rosedale.
Turns out while they are both very similar basses in their design (both based on the Yamaha YCL-622II bass), the less costly Rosedale is definitely far better built than the more expensive Odyssey. Even before I've taken it apart, I've had to sort out the barely operational automatic speaker mechanism which has the spring tension cranked right up on the long linkage rod so throat A and RH3 are ridiculously heavy to use. The thumb low D key and consequently the LH low D lever are also heavily sprung in order they will return due to the excessive friction from using natural cork on the sliding linkages.
If you compare the two basses, the differences are subtle and only apparent when you see them. Now I've always had a problem with the cost of Odyssey instruments when the same ones (or near identical ones) are being sold for much less. In the case of these two Chinese low C basses, the Rosedale is definitely the better quality one compared to the more costly Odyssey, even if it does need a full service from the word go.
Rosedale (£1499.99): https://www.gear4music.com/Woodwind-Brass-Strings/Rosedale-Bass-Clarinet-by-Gear4music/RW0
Odyssey Premiere (£1999.00): https://www.gear4music.com/Woodwind-Brass-Strings/Odyssey-Premiere-Bb-Bass-Clarinet/1UIX
What any player with the view to buying any Chinese instrument has to bear in mind, regardless of the price, is to factor in the extra expense of a full service to be sure it's all fully functional as they rarely are if not sold through a woodwind specialist (and even some specialists don't service them before sale).
What's the term for two unrelated animal species in different parts of the world evolving in such a way they're almost identical to each other in both appearance and behaviour as well as in the role they both fulfil? Well, that's what these two basses seem to be like - both may seem the same on the surface and perform the same task, but up close there's loads of differences.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2023-11-10 02:56)
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2023-11-10 12:43
>> What's the term for two unrelated animal species in different parts of the
>> world evolving in such a way they're almost identical to each other in both
>> appearance and behaviour as well as in the role they both fulfil?
Parallel evolution
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-11-11 12:10
HI Chris,
Interesting to hear you're account of getting the Rosendale bass into proper playing condition, as this model suggests itself as likely offering the best value for money among the budget Chinese options here in Europe ( at its standard retail price that is). I doubt that paying for a more expensive one is any guarantee of unboxing an instrument with fewer issues to be sorting out. It seems that they all leave the China factory in a similar state. That said they can be expected to play quite well after they have received the necessary attention.
As JD wisely pointed out at the end of his little video on setting up his 500$ Accent.
" This is a cautionary tale."
Ps. My Selmer style keywork bass has solid hinge-pin hung rods, although a few of the pins tended to back out quickly due to slightly angled presentation within the rod hole. ( And a host of other issues to sort out initially needles to say). These instruments come like Kit cars. Ha-ha!
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2023-11-12 12:23
>> How Low (Price) Can You Go? <<
Someone just brought me a bass clarinet that is possibly the cheapest available. Low C new for around $1100/£900 including international shipping and VAT (directly from China). That's less than half than the cheapest Chinese low C bass clarinet available here, and about 40% and 55% less than the Rosedale and Osyssey respectively.
Out of the box the major issues were that the neck can't be inserted fully into the socket and and middle tenon is possible to assemble but borderline. I wouldn't be surprised (even pretty sure) that the plastic parts are made in one place and the metal parts (e.g. neck and bell) are made elsewhere, and they just put them in the case without checking (they may have checked before but tolerances diminished and no regular QC).
The register mechanism is not the best in design e.g. some linkage arms are short to the point that it would never feel as nice as something like a Buffet in that respect, and some keys (such as the right hand third finger key) is more resistant than it would otherwise have to be.
Overall tone is not bad. Compared with an old Vito (which I just happened to have here to check), it doesn't have the extreme change in resistance for some notes and is more even overall, and whether one is better sounding than the other depends on what part of the range. There is more variation along the range than a Selmer or Buffet but it's actually better than expected and response overall is very decent.
Same as the register mech, overall the keys don't feel the best, can be improved, but not to be as good as Buffet/Selmer. This is also a result of length and exact design/shape of the keys and not something that is realistic to modify beyond adjusting spring tension, changing to materials with less friction, etc. The lowest keys on this clarinet are not the best and still are the old(ish) type that some "branders" got factories to change in recent years.
I know of another player who ordered the exact same one and they had less issues (e.g. they didn't have the neck issue at all). It's a risk, but if you have someone who can go over it then it's not a huge risk. It's possibly the best value of every other option. There's a pretty big jump in price for anything significantly better.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-11-12 18:04
Another thing I noticed between the two Chinese basses is the Rosedale (Gear4music) appears to be ebonite as I definitely got that rotten egg (sulphur) smell from it, whereas the Odyssey is ABS as acetone will dissolve it.
The one tuning issue the new owner of my Rosedale noted is the slightly flat low Db, but to resolve that will mean altering the bell tonehole (and the bell key) - either enlarging the bell tonehole or relocating it nearer to the socket which requires far more surgery than it's worth. What with it being a cheap bass, it's not expected to have perfect tuning - not even Selmer basses have perfect tuning and they're around ten times the price.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2023-11-13 22:45
But I thought as soon as you say "Chinese", all bets are off. You wouldn't even buy it in the first place, at any price.
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