 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Beth
Date: 2001-08-03 22:17
I have always had a problem with wearing away the nickel plating on my clarinets in a very short period of time. I'm wondering if anyone here has had the same problem and found that they have better luck with the silver plating. As I'm hoping to buy a new (or gently used) clarinet in the near future, I'm wondering if it would really help for me to spend the extra money on silver plating? Or is the same thing likely to happen?
A friend of mine used to put a thin layer of clear nail polish on her keys to help retard the wear. But I'm not sure how safe that is either. Is there anything I could do to keep a new clarinet from looking terrible in a matter of only a few weeks? I know looks shouldn't be so important, but it is disconcerting to spend a lot of money on a new horn and have it look so bad in a matter of months.
I'd appreciate hearing others' thoughts on this problem.
Thanks
Beth
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-08-04 00:15
Beth,
I'm afraid if your hands are acetic enough to damage the nickel plate you will have the same problem with the silver. I believe the silver plate to be less hardy than the nickel. Most manufacturers put a copper plating on the keys before they are silver plated. This allows the silver to plate more evenly. Once the silver plate is worn through the copper will show. Sorry, but I can not be encouraging in your situation. The best you can do is to wash your hands thoroughly before playing and make sure you wipe the keys before putting the instrument away. I'm fortunate not to have that problem, but I know a few musicians who can make a brand new instrument look well used inside of six months. They just learn to live with it.
John
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Author: Corey
Date: 2001-08-04 01:49
i have kinda have the same problem with my clarinet,it's only a year and a half old and looks to be about 3-4 years old the silverplated keys look terrible!! i use a polishing cloth after each use maybe that idea about puting a thin coat of clear nail polish could work with my next clarinet, is this good for the keys?? will it damage the keys??
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Author: John Gibson
Date: 2001-08-04 03:21
Maybe I'm weird....but I really enjoy the worn look. Have a couple of older clarinets with nickle silver keys....with use they "brighten" up...but retain that grey look. Even have a "patina" about them. I think it looks good and shows you use your horn instead of "show it off".
john
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Author: Beth
Date: 2001-08-04 03:32
Corey,
I'm wondering the same thing. I don't think it ever hurt my friend's nickel plated clarinet, but I'm not sure about silver. It does seem like a good idea though, if it prevented the acid in my fingers from reaching the plating. It seems to me *something* must be possible. Someone needs to invent something that will raise the pH of our skin temporarily...but not something that will feel sticky or greasy. (Go for it, Corey...)
I'm wondering if the wear on silver nickel keys with the silver plating wouldn't be as obvious as copper showing through under the nickel plating. At least the keys would all stay the same color, even if they don't stay shiny.
Strangely, the keys on my inherited 75+ year old Lefevre clarinet have remained unmarked. Too bad the horrible intonation makes it unplayable.
I wonder what the keys are made out of though. Then again, it may be that my grandfather didn't have the same problem with his fingers eating the plating.
If no one comes up with any other solutions or reasons why clear nail polish is a clear no no, I'm probably going to use it on my next clarinet.
I'm sorry to hear about your still-young clarinet. I know it's frustrating.
Beth
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Author: Tim2
Date: 2001-08-04 03:42
I have the same problem.
Wash your hands before you play. If it is a hot day, you may want to wipe the keys once in a while as you play. Or better yet, play in air conditioning. My fingers sweat profusely when it is hot and humid. When I play in pit orchestras for local things, I always have the old T-shirt with the holes on my lap, ready to wipe of the keys often.
Don't have a repairman polish the keys as that will take off more metal. My rings get pretty worn down to the point that my thumb run and its closure of the first ring and pad is affected. Wipe the horn down. If your are a neat freak, like my wife, you may even want to take the time to go over the metal parts where your fingers touch after you are through playing with a cloth and light soap & water. This will take the last of what is left on the horn.
Has anyone ever thought of making the keys out of some sort of plastic? There must be all kinds of materials that would hold up well and never tarnish. Adjustment might be tough, I don't know, plastics can bend under heat. Or does it have to be metal?
All you engineers out there ( know there are a lot of you out there playing clarinet, Dee???), how about it, is it possible? Maybe it's already been done.
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Author: Beth
Date: 2001-08-04 03:45
John,
I know silver gets that warm patina. And I agree it can look really nice. But I didn't think nickel really did that. The worn off plating just makes my old Selmers look sort of....bruised.
I actually don't intend to "show off" my clarinet, as I will likely only play for my children and (possibly) my church. I never liked performing (other than playing old love songs for nursing home residents on an old piano. THAT is rewarding). It's just a very personal thing for me.
Beth
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Author: William
Date: 2001-08-04 03:51
My first clarinets (Selmers) were nickle-plated which wore off rather quickly (I practiced a lot). In college, I bought my first Buffet R-13, also n-p which I played until, not only the nickel became worn, the acid in my finger actually ate off the Bb/Eb pad cup next to my r-h forefinger. After having it re-installed at our local repair facility, I had that instrument silver plated--and, no more wear on the keys. To this day, my original R-13 keys are as silvery-shinny as new. All of my subsequent clarinets have come silver-plated and I even have one done in gold. I have experianced absolutely no wearing of the silver or gold finishes and I still do a lot of playing. And I do not try especially hard to perserve the finishes--just swab the bores, whip the tendons and store them away for the next gig. In my hands, silver/gold platings seems to hold up very well while nickel does not. Hope this helps. Good clarineting!!!!!
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Author: Beth
Date: 2001-08-04 04:12
Thanks for your reply, William! I'll admit, I was hoping someone would come forth with an outcome like yours. And you know, your post had an extra "gift" about it.
You wrote:
"And I do not try especially hard to perserve the finishes--just swab the bores, whip the tendons..."
Whipping our clarinets seems rather extreme. But hey! If it works.... LOL!
THANK YOU for your reply. I've forgotten all about the nasty sunburn I got today now that you've made me smile.
Warm regards~
Beth
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-04 04:34
I have no probelm wearing away the finish, but then I don't play 8 hours a day like some & my hands don't sweat that certain way that seems to bode ill for keywork. I will sayh thatg the thumb ring on Buffet R-13 nickelplated clariknets has been going on everybody. goes to the copper right away.
JBUTler was 100% correct when he said to stay away from Silver if you have problems wearing off the Nickel plating. It won't get better,. it will get worse.
I know of a couple of repair people who give a lifetime guarantee with their silverplating (replating) repair of keywork.
Steve Fowler of Maryland guarantees his silverplate 100% the last I heard. Does most excellent work, too.
Best,
mw
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Author: Beth R.
Date: 2001-08-04 04:48
mw,
Do you know if - when the time comes - badly worn nickel plating can be re-plated in silver? Or even re-plated in nickel? Just a thought. I'm guessing it's probably prohibitively expensive though.
I'll likely follow your advice and stick with nickel, unless a landslide of folks start sharing their success stories with silver, like William. I would seem to me that silver would be softer and less durable than nickel. But I had to ask.
Thank you for your reference to Steve Fowler. I'll keep him in mind.
All the best,
Beth R.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-08-04 05:11
In my experience silver plate wears better than nickel. Plus it provides a better grip on the keys. Plus it's prettier. The extra $200 or so to get silver plate instead of nickel is easily worth it.
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Author: Joseph O'Kelly
Date: 2001-08-04 06:06
My Bb is silver plated while my A is nickle plated. My Bb is older than my A and played much, much more. There is no wearing on my Bb while my A shows wear. Silver is much better.
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Author: Joseph O'Kelly
Date: 2001-08-04 06:07
My Bb is silver plated while my A is nickle plated. My Bb is older than my A and played much, much more. There is no wearing on my Bb while my A shows wear. Silver is much better. It looks alot nicer too.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-08-04 11:44
Beth,
Yes, keys can be replated. Nickel/Silver it doesn't matter. It will cost more for silver. Depending on the plater it can run you anywhere from $60-$100 for nickel and $80-$125 or so for silver. With the nickel keys they will have to be stripped of any remaining nickel, buffed, degreased, and then replated.
John
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-08-04 11:46
Beth,
Forgot to add that you'll then have to get your clarinet pads and corks replaced. That will probably be more expensive than the plating. I usually send in the posts and rings also so they will match.
John
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-04 14:54
JBUtler is 100% correct with his prices. Silverplate does NOT cost $200 more. In fact, not more than $50 more.
Silverplate is more tactile. I can demonstrate with my wife & daughter the FASTER loss of silverplate. YMMV.
YES, Beth, as JB stated, you can replate nickel..
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Author: Corey
Date: 2001-08-04 18:25
Why don't they make clarinet keys out of solid silver or stainless steel? wouldn't it last a lot longer? Also-- how can you stay away from silver plate almost all proffessional clarinets have silverplate i think i should get a new polishing cloth
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2001-08-04 19:29
mw--my Leblanc catalogue states: "All Leblanc France nickel-plated key models are available with silver-plated keys for an additional $250." However, my WW/BW catalogue lists the Leblanc Concerto with nickel-plated keys at $2099.00 vs. $2249.00 for silverplated keys--a difference of $150. The Buffet R-13 with nickel-plated keys is listed at $3355.00 and the silver-plate at $3640.00--a difference of $285. In any event, I would say that one should expect to pay at least $150 for silver-plated keys vs. nickel. Also, the nickel-plating on my Leblanc LX showed signs of wear within six months. Meanwhile, the silver-plating on my LL shows no signs of wear at all after more than two years of playing. There's just no question: silver is superior to nickel. One last thing: the prices for the R-13s mentioned above are full list. Assuming WW/BW's usual 35% or so discount, the extra for silver-plating would be about $185.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-08-04 23:06
Robert,
MW and I are not talking about the price difference in the NEW clarinets, at least I am not. I know that I can get clarinet keys/posts/rings silver plated for $125 or less from a nationally known plater of instrument keys. I've shipped keys to them for plating many times. Each time the price is a little different due to the fluctuating price of silver anodes, etc. What the manufacterer charges is up to them.
John
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-04 23:16
Somehow things got confused. I thought we were talking about REPLATING metal keywork on a Clarinet. To that end, I was correct in what I said.
YES on a new clarinet there is a approximate $100-$150 difference on Buffet professional clarinets. Forget LIST prices, nobody ever follows them unless they are really "putting it to" a customer.
NOW, speaking to the RE-PLATING comments ... the prices I quoted (and that JButler of noted instrument repair fame quoted) of $50 or so DIFFERENCE in price between Silverplate & Nickelplate is correct.
If you like you can check with someone like Steve Fowler in Maryland who will verify what I have said. I have actually paid Steve the money previously. Also, you could check with Anderson Silver Plating Co in Elkhart, IN. Please keep in mind that if you are not a dealer or repair specialist they may quote you higher prices (or possibly not at all).
<:http://www.plantfloor.com/in/andersonsilverplatingcompany.htm>
Best,
mw
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-08-05 01:17
Beth wrote:
>
>
> Strangely, the keys on my inherited 75+ year old Lefevre
> clarinet have remained unmarked. Too bad the horrible
> intonation makes it unplayable.
> I wonder what the keys are made out of though. Then again, it
> may be that my grandfather didn't have the same problem with
> his fingers eating the plating.
There is a very high probability that the keys on this old clarinet are unplated and made of German silver, which is neither German nor silver. It is a cupro-nickel alloy also referred to as nickel silver despite the fact that it contains no silver.
My Leblanc Symphonie II has keys like this. Since they have no plating, naturally there is no plating wear.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-08-05 01:29
Tim2 wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever thought of making the keys out of some sort of
> plastic? There must be all kinds of materials that would hold
> up well and never tarnish. Adjustment might be tough, I don't
> know, plastics can bend under heat. Or does it have to be metal?
>
> All you engineers out there ( know there are a lot of you out
> there playing clarinet, Dee???), how about it, is it possible?
> Maybe it's already been done.
It might be tough to hold adequate tolerances in plastics. For cost reasons, plastic parts are molded and this process tends to be less "tight" than machining or casting+machining that can be done with metals.
Metals that *never* tarnish (or rust) are quite expensive and/or have other flaws. For example, gold and gold alloys are just too soft. The keys would bend too easily. Nickel alloys such as cupro-nickel (aka "German silver" or "nickel silver") have been used as they tarnish at an extremely slow rate. I can't tell you why it fell out of favor though.
Anyway, I'm not a materials person so can't really run through much more than that.
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Author: Beth R.
Date: 2001-08-05 01:52
Are there really no instruments made today with nickel silver? It seems like the perfect material for me.
Beth R.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-05 01:52
Speaking of German Silver (which has what I would call more of a yellow patina as it ages), John Butler is able to buff it in a way that brings out the beauty in older keywork (John can explain better than I).
I have seen John apply his buffer (& various compunds) with what I thought was very worn & ugly keywork. BOY, was I wrong.
I hope John will take a moment to explain (and/or correct me).
Best,
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-05 03:03
The key to what DEE said was UN-plated. AND, the work that JB did for me that I thought was so beautiful was on UN-plated keywork (as well). Best, mw
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-08-05 11:51
Mark,
Thanks for the compliment. You are correct in that the raw German silver has a little yellow reflection to it, but it does look very nice. I think that the raw keys when buffed look excellent. The process that I use is not magic, perhaps a little more labor intensive, but nothing magical.
First, I make sure all key swedging and key fitting work is done before buffing. I usually do this as I'm taking the instrument aprart. I get all the grease and oils off by washing them in plain soap (Dawn) and water. After drying I first buff the keys with a compound called "white diamond". I used to get this from a local jeweler supply but they have stopped carrying it. I now order it from Votaw tool in Springfield, Missouri. This process gets the scratches and "hard" oxidation off the keys. I then "color" buff the keys with a green rouge. Finally, the keys go into a ultrasonic cleaner with a solution of oaktite heated to 140 degrees for five minutes. This last process is to remove all buffing compounds from the keys, especially the hinge rods. Like I stated before, it isn't magic, just work.
John
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-08-05 15:58
I have recently had work done on all my clarinets. My Evette got the nickle (worn off in places) removed and silver put on. My Vintage R13 had no plating to be found anywhere... plain keys, it got silver. My 1925 FB had the plain keys buffed.
I find that the silver, nickle, and plain keys all look different. You just go for what you like. I may be weird, but the silver has a cheaper look than the nickle. The buffed keys looks by far the best. I am concerned that when you play the buffed keys you are wearing away the key instead of the plating.
I haven't heard anyone suggest this, but (and here I mention, even though it really makes no difference, I do have an engineering degree in addition to my professional degree) it seems to me that powder coating could be an answer. It is hard and almost indestructable. The oils and acids from your hands will not affect it. You could get all kinds of gooney colors like they are doing to saxes now. It is also available in clear which would look wonderful over buffed keys. Another thought would be to lacquer the keys (fingernail polish is the same idea). The only thing that affects the powdercoat is heat, so the tech would have to be careful when floating pads. Technicians can pad a sax without destroying the lacquer so they should be able to do a powdercoated clarinet. Hey what would you give for an all black clarinet... black posts, keys and rings...... not much I think!
Does anyone know what that "Black Nickle" plating that is popular on saxes now is? It might hold up well on a clarinet.
John, on my plated horns they couldn't remove the bell rings to plate them, what do you do for that? Also, I know my buffed keys on the FB will go back grey-yellow with time, how do you suggest I maintain them? At some point can I remove the keys and re-buff without immersing the keys in a degrreasing solution? It seems to me that a red-rouge cake on a 1" rag wheel is just the ticket if leaving the rouge residue on the keys isn't a problem. I assume using alcohol to remove the residue is ok, that is how I have done it in the past.
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2001-08-05 16:54
I've never had problems of wear on my clarinet. I'm more worried about their playing ability. But here's my $.02: what about an oxide or metalloid? Silicon? Hematite? Some of these would be obvious no-nos, but why isn't there anybody experimenting out there with materials like that? (Hematite keys would look cool.)
You know how they have blue-steel springs? What if somebody made keys out of the same material?
It seems like there are tons of materials you could experiment with. So would be the upsides and downsides of such materials?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-08-06 14:45
A few thoughts:
1. Blued needle springs commonly have a severe rust problem.
2. The plastic type powder coating would not stand up to the heat needed with standard pad adhesives.
3. The (powder?) coating on aluminium joinery, I think, has to be applied to aluminium. Not a good material for pivots.
4. Nickel silver, German silver, cupronickel..... That is the 'base' metal of our current keys. Without plating it does tarnish, albeit slowly, to that very dull look of modern 'silver' coins after they tarnish. They can develop an unpleasant feel like fine sand paper.
5. Titanium would be good, but very expensive to buy and machine.
6. Gold plating has been suggested for saxophones and flutes. It is soft and wears more easily but it is extremely resistant to corrosion, so may well last better, and certainly look better.
7. Plastic keys would be far less rigid than the current metal. This would cause many problems with reliability of pad seating and linkages. Imagine those left hand low levers wobbling sideways. Plastic would give the impression of playing a jelly! Many plastics would have problems with pad adhesion and adjustment. Many adjustmets and initial set-ups and CORRECTION of poor design involves bending metal keys. Far greater accuracy in design and manufacture would be needed for a material that cannot be easily bent to modify the shape. However, new technology..... new polymers..... who knows what the future may bring.
Modern epoxy lacquer as used on some saxes is extremely durable. I'm not sure why it has not been used.
8. Some paint type surface finishes are rugged. "Hammerglaze''? If a surface finish is not metal, then the more resistant it is to scratches the harder it has to be, and the harder it is the more brittle (e.g. porcelain on steel), so it cannot cope with bending of the base metal, either from adjustment or accident.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-08-06 20:07
I prefer the silver-plated to the nickel-plated keys. For one, the silver feels better and lasts longer. You do have to wipe them off and keep the tarnish away, but if you're playing the instrument all the time that's not a problem.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-06 20:11
the SILVER plating has a (different) "TACTILE" feel than the nickel plating. At times, the nickel playing on my former R-13 would feel "slippery" to me. On the other hand, compared to the clarinet I "grew up with" as a kid, BOTH ARE GREAT!
best,
mw
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Author: Robert
Date: 2001-08-09 04:05
Silver does have a different feel, I like silver better because I did have the problem mw talks about as they felt a bit slippery, especially because when I play my hands seem to sweat a lot. I haven't had any problem with tarnish or anything, all I do is wipe my keeps when I'm finish, and once or twice a month go over it with this silver polishing cloth I got, and it keeps the keys nice shiny and looking new.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-08-09 04:29
Careful with the polishing cloth. it has an abrasive material. I wipe my clarinet down with a cotton (white) diaper. BOY, am I glad they don't get used anymore around here anymore! <lol>
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Author: 7
Date: 2001-08-17 08:22
Beth said;
"Someone needs to invent something that will raise the pH of our skin temporarily...but not something that will feel sticky or greasy."
Easy.. Dust your hands with baking soda and wipe it off. I use baking soda all the time to bump up the PH in my fish tanks. Less then a teaspoon of soda converts a gallon of water with a PH of 5 up to about 7.5.
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