 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Wookie001
Date: 2023-10-15 15:02
Actually, some years ago, it was my goal to study jazz saxophone at a conservatory. But now I find it to be more and more pointless, it’s so much about playing the same standards most other Jazz musicians know over and over again.. it just bores me now.
I’ve always been very interested in the whole range of classical music, and have been playing easy to intermediate piano pieces for a few years.
Now I’m taking clarinet lessons to develop a better technique and start playing in an amateur orchestra. Also, to study classical clarinet in the long run. But I don’t have any experience with orchestra playing so far. Can you give me some good advice for playing clarinet in an orchestra or recommend pieces/etudes for the audition I can learn to play?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-10-15 15:28
The auditions are all about repertoire, so it is all about the most prominent excerpts for the instrument. The best way to get initiated is to find auditions and get their required list of excerpts. Practice these religiously as you would your scales and etudes.
As for clarinet etudes there are many good ones out there. The Rose 32 and Rose 40 studies are fundamental and a good place to start. Personally I like the full compliment of Kroepsch books. The first two books cover mostly one line exercises in all keys. Books 3 and 4 are one or two page exercise by Kroepsch that cover basic cord progressions in all keys. Of course as a jazz musician you already have a foundation there!
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2023-10-16 04:29)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2023-10-16 06:16
Buy all the Drucker/McGinnis Orchestral Excerpt books? Are they still in print?
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
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Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2023-10-16 17:25
playing jazz standards isnt boring if you are proficient at improvisation.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2023-10-16 20:05
Another recent thread just posted the audition requirements for a US Navy band audition. That would be a good starting point.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: davyd
Date: 2023-10-16 20:44
Once you have developed the necessary proficiency to be an community orchestra musician, the next step is actually joining such an organization,
I got into one such orchestra by being in the right place at the right time. I got into another one by knowing the right person. In a way, it's no different from getting any other kind of job.
Do your local orchestras have reading sessions, typically in the summer, that anyone may attend? I know several people who have joined community orchestras that way.
If you are currently playing in a community concert band or jazz band, or community theater pit ensembles, does anyone there play in a community orchestra? By getting to know them, you'll find out about vacancies that might exist.
Owning, or having ready access to, a clarinet in A isn't absolutely mandatory, but it most definitely helps. Transposed parts are not available for all pieces; being able to negotiate transpositions is a must.
Taking up the bass clarinet also helps. I know more than one person for whom that was their ticket in.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-10-16 22:37
It will probably be tougher for a novice to get into an orchestra than a concert band anytime soon due mainly to the sheer number of clarinets in a band and the preponderance of bands versus orchestras.
It could take many years to get to the level required to play one of the 2 clarinet spots in a typical orchestra, while you could probably join a concert band now.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-10-17 22:20
As a pianist, and if your sax playing in a group setting was limited, you may not be overly used to the constant monitoring and adjusting of your tuning to your surrounding, as is required from an orchestral player. Even if the overall tuning in an amateur orchestra would leave much to be desired, try at least to adjust yourself to the players closest to you - or, if you are playing 2. clarinet, at least to the 1. chair player.
Learning and getting used to the mindset of constantly listening to your tuning relative to your surrounding, as well as how to adjust yourself and in what direction, is an most essential part of orchestral playing - at least at any higher than the most basic level. With time and experience that will begin to happen more and more "automatically", but until that you probably need to really devote yourself to it.
Part of that process is also learning the tuning tendencies of your own instrument, meaning simply which notes are flat or sharp, and how much. Practicing with a tuner, or tuner app on your smartphone, would probably be helpful. Still remember that tuning is always about compromises, and also that the needed adjustments varies according to which of the notes in a chord your note is. Thus not a single note on your instrument would ever in itself be the "right" one, which you could rightfully expect all the others adjusting to.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-10-18 01:14
Micke Isotalo wrote:
> As a pianist, and if your sax playing in a group setting was
> limited, you may not be overly used to the constant monitoring
> and adjusting of your tuning to your surrounding, as is
> required from an orchestral player. Even if the overall tuning
> in an amateur orchestra would leave much to be desired, try at
> least to adjust yourself to the players closest to you - or, if
> you are playing 2. clarinet, at least to the 1. chair player.
>
> Learning and getting used to the mindset of constantly
> listening to your tuning relative to your surrounding, as well
> as how to adjust yourself and in what direction, is an most
> essential part of orchestral playing - at least at any higher
> than the most basic level. With time and experience that will
> begin to happen more and more "automatically", but until that
> you probably need to really devote yourself to it.
>
> Part of that process is also learning the tuning tendencies of
> your own instrument, meaning simply which notes are flat or
> sharp, and how much. Practicing with a tuner, or tuner app on
> your smartphone, would probably be helpful. Still remember that
> tuning is always about compromises, and also that the needed
> adjustments varies according to which of the notes in a chord
> your note is. Thus not a single note on your instrument would
> ever in itself be the "right" one, which you could rightfully
> expect all the others adjusting to.
>
I'm pretty sure every musician has to constantly play perfectly in tune anytime there is more than one instrument in the group. I don't see how this would be any stricter in an orchestral setting and less strict in a small group.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-10-18 01:26
super20dan,
I admit that I chuckeld a bit when I read Quote:
...it’s so much about playing the same standards most other Jazz musicians know over and over again.. it just bores me now.
I thought, "Yeah, it's much better to play the exact notes in the exact style that everyone else does/has - and mostly on the same music that has been played exactly the same way for decades/centuries" Haha!
But after the quick laugh, I can understand how some folks might feel the way Wookie01 does. I think it depends on the environment/exposure the individual player has.
The chord changes to many of the standards are pretty predictable and similar - the melodies are usually pretty simple; and its easy to fall into the trap of hearing/playing the same lines over the same chords - even when you try not to. Personally, I find that to be part of the fun and challenge of the music.
Getting to compose something new every time I play a tune still remains quite exciting to me and keeps things fresh.
Best of luck to Wookie01 in his/her new endeavor! Whatever it takes to keep the fun/passion going!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-10-18 16:11
lydian, you are absolutely right - but this topic is about orchestral playing. Thank you anyway for your clarification, in case someone misunderstands my previous post.
Post Edited (2023-10-18 16:42)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2023-10-18 17:40
Maybe Pit orchestras would be fun to try since the OP is clearly a doubler and well versed in jazz style?
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-10-19 15:33
twas written...
"Yeah, it's much better to play the exact notes in the exact style that everyone else does/has - and mostly on the same music that has been played exactly the same way for decades/centuries"
Well, that is NOT at all what classical playing is or should be, it's really sad to think that someone actually believes THAT.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-10-19 16:39
No, BUT I understand it coming from the classical side. I began my love of clarinet with big band music (mostly 30's and 40's). As a younger person there were still a fair number of "revival bands" touring around such as the "Tommy Dorsey Band" etc. Attending one of these I looked forward to the all the sparkling sounds I heard on the time worn records I had. However, I was hugely disappointed to find that the soloists did not present exact copies of what was familiar to me......I didn't understand the idea of the "jazz solo." It was years after that when I came across the RCA Bluebird Archived recordings of the early Goodman band presenting multiple takes of the same tune. Each of those takes featured Goodman playing something completely different each time. THAT actually shocked me.
The whole idea that something perfect could be violated in that way swayed me to the classical side. I enjoy the beauty of something that represents an immutable symmetrical structure. Within that though, as 'donald' and others know, however, is a a huge world of variance in interpretation. There in lies the wonder of classical music. Yes, perhaps annoyingly subtle to "the other side," it is what has entranced me for many many years.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-10-19 19:32
I think the point was it’s kind of ironic that the thing that’s different every time (jazz) is boring, but the thing that’s the same every time, at least pretty darn close if you do it right, (classical) would be less boring.
There’s obviously a lot of individuality and interpretation that makes classical pieces fresh and exciting. But it’s nowhere near as novel as playing an entirely different solo every time that’s created from nothing in real time.
Post Edited (2023-10-19 21:27)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-10-19 19:41
Hi Paul,
Well said.
Like nearly every one of us who pursued music education through college on clarinet, I began in classical, was trained in classical, etc.
I fully understand your shock (and perhaps dismay) at hearing different versions of tunes you had grown to love in pop/jazz of the era. I remember going through that same shock as a kid - though I had forgotten about it until your post. Expecting a favorite solo, but then hearing something comparatively lackluster in its place...what was that?! Yep, I remember. I can see how that was off-putting to you.
As Donald points out - I (perhaps) overstated my current disdain for how boring I find classical music now - but in my defense, I was sharing an initial gut reaction to Wookie01's statement, and then shared the rationalization of the truth which ran counter to that gut reaction. (Though, yes, I do find listening to classical music to be quite boring for the most part.)
However, I'll point out that the Küffner Quintetto op.32 thread by Craig Hill (along with links shared by yourself and Craig) helped to reacquaint me to classical in a new context where I'm seeing it as perhaps slightly less rigid and boring than I had grown to see it. (Also, huge thanks to Seabreeze for getting me started along that path over the previous years.)
So, yes, I understand where Wookie01 might be coming from...though I'm not there yet, and doubt I ever will be.
I feel that it is still an interesting (and somewhat rare) viewpoint to be coming from jazz/pop over to classical because the former was too repetitive/boring in comparison.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
[Edit: clarified "on clarinet" in my opening statement]
Post Edited (2023-10-19 19:42)
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2023-10-19 21:45
Sorry if I’m interrupting what this thread has morphed into but I’d like to circle back to what was originally asked by the OP.
First, do we know the age of the OP and what their skill level might be? Does he or she study with a private teacher? Having such knowledge of the situation goes a long way toward putting forth any kind of legitimate advice.
In the meantime, keep in mind that an “amateur” or “community” orchestra can mean many things. It could be a serious endeavor or that of a recreational activity for people in the area.
I remember joining a local community orchestra when I was 15 years old - the principals of the orchestra were mainly local music teachers but there were also some taken from ranks of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. So some people were paid - not me, however! Oh…the audition I took to get in the group? There were no excerpts, no scales, no etude. I played whatever solo I was working on the time. Fast forward a few years and I found myself in a “higher level” community orchestra, also with DSO members in the mix as principals. Everybody got paid something. And I got in by word of mouth - no audition whatsoever. And on it goes - there are literally more than a dozen of such orchestras in my area with many different levels of competence (for lack of a better word).
There’s no fixed formula for what any of these groups might want to hear for an audition. It could be anywhere from a solo or etude to an excerpt or two or (very likely) whatever the group might be performing that season. You want to know what they expect? Ask them!
Please don’t equate an audition for a group of this nature to that of a professional symphony orchestra. It just ain’t the same animal!
The best advice is to learn how to play your instrument. Yes, as was mentioned earlier, practice! Learn the fundamentals - scales, etudes, etc. The goal is acquiring control of the instrument and learning to express yourself. To make music.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-10-19 22:45
Hi lmliberson ,
I was thinking just the same thing. I played in a community orchestra a few years ago where the only criterion for membership was having an instrument in your hand. It was really good. The conductors were all professional musicians and I think they were privately taking bets on who would finish first each time we played. It was really top notch fun.
I reckon there's an orchestra for everyone out there somewhere.
Jennifer
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-10-20 00:59
Same here. I just walked in off the street, no audition, nothing. It's pretty clear after one rehearsal if you can hack it or not. Same goes for all the community bands I've been in. I've gotten into a few pro bands and other community bands or pit orchestras as a sub or permanent member by reputation and/or personal connections, no audition other than having a good first gig. But a pro orchestra is typically going to have an audition requirement and several excellent musicians vying for the spot. A novice has virtually no chance in that situation anyway.
Sounds like the OP is a novice on clarinet, so any dreams of auditioning for a professional orchestra need to be pushed out several years. I'd say once you reach the level of a 3rd year clarinet student, you could play in a community band without embarrassing yourself.
As others have said, develop your chops, build your musical resume and make connections. This will be more beneficial than preparing for some audition that may never happen.
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Author: davyd
Date: 2023-10-20 23:45
Expanding on one item in my previous comment:
I attended an open reading session held by a local community orchestra (a colleague in another group told me about it). I must have acquitted myself well, as I was invited to sit in with the orchestra's wind quintet, whose clarinetist was away. I must have acquitted myself well there too, as I was then invited to join the orchestra as 2nd. I would later move up to 1st, and join the quintet.
My audition piece, as it were, was not the Nielsen concerto (which I have no business even attempting), but the Nielsen wind quintet (a more realistic challenge). Go figure.
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Author: JoeRomano
Date: 2023-10-22 03:01
This summer I auditioned for Symphony Parnassus, a community orchestra in the San Francisco Bay Area. I was working on some solo piece, but when I spoke to the conductor (Stephen Paulson, who is also principle bassoonist with SF symphony), he told me he wanted to hear the first movement of the Mozart Concerto, as well as a couple exerpts from the symphonic literature. So I quickly worked on the Mozart (having not played it in decades) and also prepared the Mendelssohn Scherzo from a Midsummer Night's Dream, as well as Kodaly's Dances of Galanta. Luckily it worked out for me, and finally in an orchestra again after 4 decades! Anyway, to address the original post, I guess it depends on the group and what might be required. It pays to ask well in advance, if you have a particular group in mind.
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