 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2023-09-04 02:57
Is it possible for older adult trumpet players to play anything but loud? Our trumpet section consistently plays so loudly that many folks in the band don't like it. Our last conductor tried for years to convince them to play softer, to no affect. Do any of you have any great suggestions on how to get the message to sink in so they play softer? I know this is a delicate topic but I'm out of ideas! I'm the principal clarinetist and I know my section is really tired of having their ears ringing for days (and weeks) because of the noise.
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Author: pukalo
Date: 2023-09-04 03:15
I don't know about convincing the trumpet players to play quieter, but if you and your section's ears are ringing, consider investing in ear plugs. Many band and orchestra players use them for this reason.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-09-04 03:58
This is of course the domain of the conductor. There may also be a mitigating factor such as there are no other available trumpet players and if you step on the feet of the ones you have you may no longer have trumpet players. But it is definitely NOT a situation that can be resolved by vigilante members of other sections (unless you're willing to pay for a contract hit man).
On a serious note, there have been struggles even for professional groups such as military bands. I recall many moons ago when a trumpet section was openly vocal about their section being "the natural leaders of the band." Of course in the military there is a CLEAR, ranking leader.........and it was still difficult for him to control. It took constant "shushing," stopping, reminding. I felt sorry for our conductor, but he DID control the situation.
It is unfortunate that it is harder to find a good conductor than a nuanced trumpet section. And that is REALLY what you guys need. It's NOT the trumpet players (despite themselves).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-09-04 04:17
Roxann wrote:
> Is it possible for older adult trumpet players to play anything
> but loud? Our trumpet section consistently plays so loudly
> that many folks in the band don't like it. Our last conductor
> tried for years to convince them to play softer, to no affect.
Well, as Paul says, this *is* part of the conductor's job. But at the point where it's causing physical pain, the players sitting in front of the trumpets taking the brunt of the volume can try a couple of things.
-Noise attenuating earplugs (they only reduce the ambient sound levels - by measured amounts) are one possibility, but they tend to make a mess of the player's perception of his own sound and pitch.
-Getting your orchestra or band to buy Plexiglass baffles to place just behind your chairs will cut some of the edge off the trumpet sound and maybe wake them up to the pain they're causing.
-There may be a way by moving the seating around a little to put the trumpets a little farther back and over to one side or the other of the clarinets.
This isn't a geriatric problem - I've had painful experiences playing in front of trumpet players of all ages. It's a question of their control and their concept of their place in the texture. A trumpet section that thinks of themselves as "the natural leaders of the band" were badly educated. If the conductor can't change their minds by re-orienting their textural understanding, just telling (or asking) them to play softer probably won't change things.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-09-04 06:58
Is it possible that they have a bit of hearing loss? If they do, then a hearing aid would help a lot, or else buying a decibel meter like the one below to let them gauge for themselves how loudly they are playing.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cadrim-Digital-Portable-Decibel-Included/dp/B01NBH5BOA/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=sound+level+meter&qid=1693795711&sr=8-5
One of my friends recently got a hearing aid, and it was really interesting to watch the transition. He had been in the habit of making a lot of noise before and driving people up the wall. As soon as he got the hearing aid, the noises started driving him up the wall too, and he was also able to stop them.
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Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2023-09-04 18:04
I think Karl is on the money. This is clearly the conductor's matter to manage or not. I have seen three arrangements that I thought addressed this issue to one extend or another:
1) One orchestra I saw had plexiglass baffles (like music stands only oriented perpedicular to the floor) in front of each trumpet. The trumpet section was located at the back middle of the orchestra. This kept the trumpets from overwhelming the clarinets, flutes and strings.
2) A band I play in has reconfigured the clarinet section (located on the left side of the band from the conductors view) from one where the second and third clarinets sat in the second of three rows right in front of the trumpets to a three-row arrangement with the third clarinets sitting in the same row as the trumpets. This also pushed the trumpet section a bit to the right such that the first and second clarinets are less in the trumpets' line of projection.
3) This goes back a few decades, but my high school band had the trumpets situated in three rows on the right side of the band (from the conductor's view) and the clarinets located in three rows on the left side of the band. We clarinets never had any difficulty hearing ourselves.
4) And one person I play with wears musicials' ear plugs if she has to sit too close to the trumpets. I bought a pair but haven't had cause to use them yet.
Professional ensembles have the luxury of being able to limit the size of the their trumpet sections. Volunteer community bands usually end up accepting all comers, and there often seems to be an excess of trumpet players wanting to play.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-09-04 20:12
On more than one occasion when listening to trumpet players, I have been struck by just how much the instrument's bell looks like a funnel. I'm sure you could get most of a batch of Jelly mix in there without spilling a drop. Obviously I wound never do such a thing..... not without asking the owner what their favorite fruit flavor was first.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: marcia
Date: 2023-09-04 20:31
I have resorted to wearing earplugs, which become uncomfortable after a while. However preserving my hearing is worth the minor irritation. I have been know to say that every trumpet player should have to spend an entire rehearsal sitting directly in front of the trumpet section. I truly wonder if they have the slightest idea how loud they are. ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
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Author: Connor1700
Date: 2023-09-04 20:41
Earplugs. They make them specifically for musicians. They work quite well.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-09-05 01:16
What I'd do is implore the conductor to resolve the issue. If that didn't work, I'd implore the trumpet players to play into their stands or up over the heads of the row in front of them. If that didn't work, I'd let the conductor know that I was resigning and why.
Hearing is too precious to risk. I'll also strongly disagree with the others who find earplugs are an acceptable alternative. I've tried the musician ones and find them abhorrent - and (for me) quite contrary to making music...plus it is the principle of the thing. If trumpet players want to be sadists, let their victims be the willing, not the unwilling. It would be wrong (morally, ethically, professionally) for me to play my instrument in a manner which knowingly harmed the long-term health of those around me.
I've played with, and listened to, far too many great trumpet players / cornet players to put up with such outrageous behavior. No reason to put up with it.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: LFabian
Date: 2023-09-05 06:59
Our very experienced 1st chair persuaded the conductor to move the clarinets to the opposite side of the trumpets, on the right side. No more complaints. We are in front of the trombones. One time we had 4 tubas. Suddenly our rehearsal room became very small.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-09-05 09:37
One time in our community orchestra the trumpets came and sat directly behind the clarinets, which really was dangerously loud for us.
I just asked them to move, and they went to the other side of the room. They were fine over there. But they were playing very quietly, and in a really controlled way.
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Author: graham
Date: 2023-09-05 13:37
If you’re a professional, consider legal action. If you’re an amateur, demand a resolution and if you’re treated as bluffing, call their bluff. What you are describing is a hell that can’t equate with enjoyment. Yes, it should be possible to enjoy your band, but that isn’t what it’s offering to you.
On the narrower point, the trumpet players should be challenged to demonstrate that they have the skill to play quietly. If they fail the challenge, they should be shown the door. It’s probably time for a clear out.
graham
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Author: ruben
Date: 2023-09-05 15:59
What about Dizzy Gillespie bells pointing upwards. Could that make a difference? I'm not kidding (for once!).
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-09-05 17:47
Is this problem more prevalent in amateur groups? Presumably pro trumpet players would be blending with the ensemble sound.
In our community band there's a range of abilities; a few pros, some talented amateurs that drive all over and play in multiple groups, and quite a few people that love to play but never do outside of our band. Plus one quirky guy.
The people who play the least tend to simplify dynamics. Sometimes I think they're varying between just two levels, or three: not really audible, and loud. Some folks, and yes, trumpets come to mind (and drummers,) add a "blast" category atop the other two.
I've hinted to the conductor about working on dynamics, but he's well aware of the situation. There's just more important things at our level.
p.s., I'll use musician earplugs as needed. Yes, they change your hearing of your sound, but it can be worked with. It depends on the individual and the kind of earplugs.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-09-05 18:47
It is simply not true that this is an issue solely with amateur groups. The Chicago Symphony Orchestra got the the reputation for being loud in the late 70’s. Since that was part of what made them more popular, Solti continued to insist on more volume from the brass (in their case this was mainly horns and trombones). This is when plexiglass shields became the norm separating brass players from string and woodwind players.
I found it a complete assault on musicality and reason. I think things have calmed down here in the US. I also don’t believe European orchestras went down that path. Correct me if I’m mistaken .
……..Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-09-05 19:10
Another side where professional groups are concerned - orchestras like the Chicago SO or Philadelphia or other top-level groups are likely playing in large halls on large stages. There's more space for the sound to dissipate into. The players are seated farther apart. And many orchestras play on risers, with the brass in the back on the highest risers. So at the top pro level, it may not be so much an issue of physical assault and more one of musical taste. Even then I've known Phila Orchestra players to complain about loud brass playing.
If you're rehearsing in a smaller space (typical high school band room or stage), everyone is much closer together.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-09-05 20:27
Trust me, loud is LOUD. Yes there is a bit of distance between players on the the stage of Symphony Center but that does not mitigate the sound pressure levels generated to “market a loud orchestra.”
I believe LOUD has been replaced by performances of video game music and Harry Potter live. One of these days we’ll get it right again.
…………Paul Aviles
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2023-09-06 18:24
'Loud' was a feature in the UK at that time as well. A famous clarinetist of the time said young conductors were always asking for more volume. The player equated the players' job to 'orchestral navvying'. Not sure if that's a familiar term in the US, but navvies were the immigrant Irish labourers who dug by hand much of the UK's canal and railway cuttings, embankments and tunnels.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-09-07 17:50
JTJC wrote:
> 'Loud' was a feature in the UK at that time as well. A famous
> clarinetist of the time said young conductors were always
> asking for more volume.
Gigliotti famously (among his students) coined - or maybe adopted it from another source - BTSOOI, which stood for Blast The **** Out Of It to describe the way he had to play for Ormandy in the Philadelphia Orchestra.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-09-07 20:19
LOL Karl. "BTSOOI, which stood for Blast The **** Out Of It to describe the way he had to play for Ormandy in the Philadelphia Orchestra." That might have originated with Ormandy himself.
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Author: kurth83
Date: 2023-09-08 10:00
As an older trumpet player who recently started to double on clarinet (which brought me to this forum), a possible easy solution is to make them play cornets, which a lot of band literature actually calls for anyway. Cornets are much darker, which means they have less upper harmonics, which means less ear damage and pain. You have to insist on (standard) deep cup cornet mouthpieces too to really get a dark tone that won't hurt. I could shove a trumpet mouthpiece into a cornet and brighten it up considerably which would defeat the purpose there.
I mean this as a serious solution, and wish our band would do it too.
I actually play a very dark, almost cornetish, trumpet with a deep cup mouthpiece (not as deep as a cornet though) and it hurts my ears a lot less than the brighter trumpets I own, which I never play anymore for that reason.
Aging classical trumpet player beginning to learn clarinet as a second.
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Author: graham
Date: 2023-09-08 15:50
In theory, a professional will perform better than an amateur in this respect, because they have better skill in soft playing, are happy to demonstrate that skill to their peers, and need to physically conserve themselves for the many hours of playing. Top amateurs are similar, but many amateurs have none of these characteristics, which is why, on average, I suspect that the problem is more one of amateur groups than current professional groups.
In the 70s and early 80s, the London Symphony Orchestra wanted to play rather like amplified rock music, and Howard Snell and William Lang played their trumpets pretty loud indeed. Then again, Brymer played loud on clarinet, and Anthony Camden played very loud oboe. But more recently, the hushed delicacy epitomised by Andrew Marriner became more characteristic of the LSO, which used very soft dynamics to create the contrast required between loud and soft. Meanwhile, all opera pit performers are highly skilled in soft playing. But one cannot expect most amateurs to achieve the same.
graham
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2023-09-09 02:59
Thank you! I'm glad I'm not alone with this concern! Sometimes I feel I'm the only person saying anything about the problem. I've done a copy/paste of a lot of your suggestions and will present them to our new conductor if/when I feel it won't be too offensive to her.
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2023-09-10 15:52
All of the threads for ear plugs appear old.
Any current recommendations from you all?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-09-10 16:46
Hi Slowoldman,
I have some really good earplugs, and I'm not sure what they are called, but I can write and ask if it would be useful.
The were made by an audiologist, to fit my ears, which was a very weird process. First the lady pushed tiny cotton wool balls deep into my ear canals. Then she got a plastic syringe full of the kind of stuff that dentists use to make moulds of teeth. She squeezed that stuff deep into my ear canals, which felt quite strange, and also filled up the outer part of my ear. Then she waited a bit for it to set, and took the moulds out. Then she reached in and pulled out the cotton wool balls with tweezers, which didn't feel very safe at all, but was actually fine.
Those moulds were sent away so that copies could be made. The copies have a special filter in them that allows music through quitely, without distortion. They really are very good. I use them a lot and they reduce noise a lot, but I can still hear perfectly clearly if someone speaks or I play music.
The audiologist just called them musician's ear plugs, but I could write and ask what the brand or model is if that would help.
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2023-09-10 21:34
Thanks, Jen. I'm interested in "over the counter" plugs first, but because of sound quality I would also consider the audiologist-made variety if necessary.
If you are able to provide the brand or model, I would appreciate it.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2023-09-12 21:50
If all else fails--putting a sock in the bell should work! ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-09-13 00:10
But, who'll put the sock in the old trumpeter's bell?
(To the tune of "Who'll put the bell on the old cat's tail?")
:)
Karl
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Author: moma4faith
Date: 2023-09-22 08:58
Isn't the trumpet credo "Higher Faster Louder"?
I once played in a community band (comprised of many educators and "pro" musicians) where the brass section greatly outnumbered the woodwinds. More trumpets than clarinets, a lot of trombones and French horns... There was no way to hear with the third trumpets belting out their part right behind the clarinet section. The instrumentation was ridiculous. This was not a set-up where everyone can come play - it was by invitation, so there shouldn't have been a problem.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2023-09-23 00:48
>But, who'll put the sock in the old trumpeter's bell?
I have been tempted many times........
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Author: davidjsc
Date: 2023-11-04 00:46
I ran into similar problem in a community band I played - except it was loud alto saxophones, well 1 loud alto sax in particular.
At the time I was playing oboe and me and the other oboist were stuck right in front of this guy blasting away 2-3 feet two feet behind us. (we were on band risers, so his bell was closer to our heads). Our conductor could never get this guy to play softer and not blarinig above other sections. I personally think the guy was missing some gears and screws, so the conductor was not comfortable with outright kicking him out of the group - which, however, would have been a popular move.
Anyways, every so often, when our conductor was especially grated by this guy's playing, as well by our constant complaining, during our weekly practose he'd sometimes let us get back at this guy - but the guy was so clued out that we and others were making deliberate points at him.
One time me and the other oboist said... eff this!... and we reposition ourslves after our break, behind him, and then proceded to play our oboes as close to his ears (one one on each ear) as possible.
Thankfully our conductor let us blow steam at this guy a couple times a year, beacuse I think he thought the alto sax guy was going to get beaten up by some of us in the dark parking lot after practise, out of annoyance, or his instrument 'disappeared'.
Sucks because eventually we lost this conductor, who was really good. I wouldn't be surprised if this alto sax guy was part of the reason he left. I left around a year or so later, but due to unrelated life events making me stop playing.
DSC
~~ Alto Clarinet; Bass Clarinet; B-flat and C Boehm Clarinets; Albert C Clarinet; Oboe ~~
Post Edited (2023-11-04 00:49)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2023-11-04 09:32
Interesting that the trumpet section thought that swords were necessary. I know some trumpeters like that.
Tony F.
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Author: LFabian
Date: 2023-11-05 04:09
If it’s some comfort, my hearing aids have custom hearing profiles as well as an equalizer. Molded earplugs. If desperate, I just take them off. I still am able to hear myself. Conductor knows
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