 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-07-20 21:20
My Buffet R13 dates from the '60's. I've been playing it for 15 years. My local band tunes to a tuner at A440, and for a most of those years I could tune to that with a 65mm barrel pulled a small amount.
Now my R13 is playing much sharper. I'm having to pull the 65 barrel out almost until cork is showing, and pull the middle joint out a ways, and pull the bell way out too. Then most everything is in tune, except lowest F and E.
The pitch rise seems to me to have been sudden, but I might have missed something more gradual. The local band only plays in the summer, and I don't usually bother to check my tuning when I'm practicing off-season.
Why would a seemingly stable clarinet veer so sharp? I tried different mpc's and ligs, no difference. Register key seems clear. I'm scratching my head.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-20 22:10
When playing regularly I found that the changes in the seasons going from Spring to Summer signaled a substantially sharper tuning (despite whether I was indoors with air conditioning or outdoors). Perhaps there is a generally hot weather system in your area (I am seeing reports of what they call the "heat dome" in the south western US right now).
One other thing to consider (maybe) is that filling in the undercutting of tone holes will raise the pitch (more in the clarion than chalumeau). Perhaps (and just throwing this out there) some "gunk" had recently (or over time) impacted itself within the tone holes and is causing this issue. Might be worth a look by a tech to see if some sort of deep clean is in order.
Just thrown' things out there
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-07-20 23:15
Are you the only one in the band having this problem? It does seem an extreme change.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-07-21 01:24
Philip Caron wrote:
"My Buffet R13 dates from the '60's. I've been playing it for 15 years. My local band tunes to a tuner at A440, and for a most of those years I could tune to that with a 65mm barrel pulled a small amount.
Now my R13 is playing much sharper. I'm having to pull the 65 barrel out almost until cork is showing, and pull the middle joint out a ways, and pull the bell way out too. Then most everything is in tune, except lowest F and E."
Did you try a 66mm barrel (standard on R13)?
You could get a 67mm and stop worrying why the clarinet is sharp. Could be number of reasons, but as long as you can tune by either pulling out more or using longer barrel, your will be able OK.
Also, can the tuner of the person who "tunes" the orchestra be sharp?
My Korg tuner has adjustable A from 410 to 480Hz.
Maybe someone else will suggest other ways to fix the problem.
Good luck!
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-07-21 12:08
Firstly, your R13 Bb clarinet should use a 66mm barrel as standard - the 65 is for an A clarinet. I don't know where you are living and playing but I'm guessing it's not the UK as we differentiate between practicing (noun) and practising (verb)!
In the UK top-end Buffet clarinets are supplied at A=440 but the cheaper models and European high-end are at 442. Some of my students with 442 models use series 13 Vandoren mouthpieces to avoid pulling out too far.
If you have 440 model with a 66 barrel then you should only need to pull out between 1-2mm at normal room temperatures.
Things change considerably as soon as the temperature goes up or if you are playing with amateur musicians. In a professional band or orchestra pitch is incredibly stable. I can walk on stage and do no more than blow a for a few seconds and be sure that my tuning will be spot on. If I head off to help with a lesser group I can feel like my clarinet is all over the place because tuning is so poor - relatively speaking!
If none of this applies to you then obviously you need to get your instrument checked out. Good luck.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-07-22 02:07
Hello all. Temperatures have been summer normal in Vermont. nothing harsh, no heat waves. The effect on my intonation was far less in previous years than what I'm experiencing now.
I'm pulling the barrel out a bit more than an eighth inch, the middle section a 32nd, and the bell about a 16th. It's working well enough, but it still seems a lot. I have a 66mm barrel, and that has a small effect, but I still have to pull things to a degree well beyond what this clarinet has required before.
I haven't heard of anyone else in the band having this problem, but I'm aware that the other 5 clarinetists are not having it. We tune to an app, and it seems to agree with an adjacent member's app. At home, my tuner also agreed, and it clarified the extent of my situation.
My A clarinet, another R13 contemporary with the Bb, does not have this sharp tuning problem going on.
Paul, I'm going to check the tone holes, though they got my annual cleaning in the Spring. Hmm, *all* the tone holes.
Could something happening to the bore cause this?
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-07-22 05:36
I have a Buffet R13 67mm barrel that I'll trade for a box of reeds....
Meanwhile
"One other thing to consider (maybe) is that filling in the undercutting of tone holes will raise the pitch (more in the clarion than chalumeau). Perhaps (and just throwing this out there) some "gunk" had recently (or over time) impacted itself within the tone holes and is causing this issue."
Unfortunately this advice is the wrong way around- filling in the tone holes will FLATTEN the pitch, not sharpen it.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-07-22 07:38
I once had a clarinet (Buffet R13 Prestige A) that was incredibly flat, and required barrel cut to 63mm to make it tune to 440. The consensus on this forum was that a warped bore caused the problem.
If no one else in your band is having the same problem and your A is not having the same problem, then the problem must be with the instrument itself.
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-07-22 11:27
m1964 - my R13 A clarinet needs a 63mm barrel to play at 440... I thought it must be the bore but Francois Kloc + one of his associates both examined the bore and said it was fine... can then only be the tone-hole layout/size? I know, it's odd.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-07-22 18:55
donald wrote:
> m1964 - my R13 A clarinet needs a 63mm barrel to play at 440...
> I thought it must be the bore but Francois Kloc + one of his
> associates both examined the bore and said it was fine... can
> then only be the tone-hole layout/size? I know, it's odd.
Is yours a R13 Prestige model? I wonder if you bought mine
In any case, it is unusual that the clarinet needs barrel 2mm shorter than standard to be in tune (unless playing in a very cold environment).
I know a professional player who has a 1971 R13, bought new by his parents.
He played it so much that the 3-ring key worn off completely and required a new key to be fitted. His clarinet was eventually refurbished by Guy Chadash who installed a thin (about 1-1.5mm) bushing on the middle tenon of the upper joint, basically replicating the effect of pulling out at the middle joint.
When I asked the owner why he did it, he replied, "He [Chadash] told me it was necessary for the clarinet to be in tune".
The high C on this clarinet is sharp in relation to the middle/long C, so I wonder if the long C and the whole lower joint was made flatter by installing that bushing. However, the instrument has very nice tone and the owner would not part with it.
Going back to OP, Chadash does sell an adjustable 65-68mm barrel.
If my clarinet had a problem like that, I would have it examined by Lohff & Pfeiffer- looking at their website, it seems these people know what they are doing.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-07-22 19:00
There's something pretty serious going on if you need a 63mm barrel to play a Buffet 'A' in tune. Perhaps you're busking in Iceland?
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-07-23 23:47
Could a partially blocked register pip be the culprit?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-24 02:10
Donald,
I think you are thinking of the TONE HOLE itself and not the undercutting.
In this scenario though, to have what seems to be a tuning issue distributed across the entire horn seems unlikely. I hope Mr. Caron finds the cause as well as a solution and shares them with the group.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-07-24 16:41
Hi Paul. When and if I ever find the answer or not, I'll indeed report it here. I'm now awaiting a reply from my repair tech. Presumably he'll want to examine the instrument, and he lives in another town, so there'll be a delay, and now is also band season, so that may delay things a bit too.
The clarinet is otherwise sounding well. After our band's outdoor concert yesterday (on the gazebo of the beautiful Village Green in Walpole, NH,) several audience members came up and complimented its sound, and band members have been making similar observations for a while.
But it's showing age too. Years ago I put cork pads in all the keys that fill with moisture ("moisture" happens more with me than most players, apparently). All that cork is now hard and clacky. And the keys are getting looser and noisier in ways that don't stay fixed very long - worn articulations and such. All that could be addressed, and the old unisex artifact (can't say "girl") would probably benefit from a full overhaul. But.
I've gotten the itch, possibly age-related, to get a good new clarinet. I've never had one. I can afford it. Testing some hand-picked top-of-the-line lavished-with-care demonstration Uebels and Toscas at Clarinetfest a few years ago was unexpectedly thrilling. It makes me laugh at myself - a self-teaching isolated pretentious nobody with a great clarinet? - but, haha, I might do it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2023-07-24 19:06
Rather than strictly adhering and tuning to 440Hz regardless of the temperature, tune accordingly to the temperature, provided there aren't any fixed pitch instruments in your group. If it's hot, then tune sharp - in other words, leave your barrel where your clarinet is in tune with itself and all the other wind instruments tuning in this manner will all rise in pitch without anyone being flat or sharp if they're fart-arsing around pulling barrels and middle joints out to achieve an unrealistic 440Hz.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-07-25 15:16
I recall an outdoor concert on the Capitol steps in Austin Texas, Summer, in the blazing sun. A “rehearsal leader” attempted to tune the band to concert 440. He used the electric piano (one that of course had EASY pitch shifting). The concert was a pitch disaster! How could the tubas even attempt 440 out there?!!?
That’s my fart-arsing around story.
………Paul Aviles
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Author: m1964
Date: 2023-07-27 02:52
Philip Caron wrote:
...The clarinet is otherwise sounding well...But it's showing age too. Years ago I put cork pads in all the keys that fill with moisture ("moisture" happens more with me than most players, apparently). All that cork is now hard and clacky. And the keys are getting looser and noisier in ways that don't stay fixed very long - worn articulations and such. All that could be addressed, and the old unisex artifact (can't say "girl") would probably benefit from a full overhaul. But.
I've gotten the itch, possibly age-related, to get a good new clarinet. I've never had one. I can afford it. Testing some hand-picked top-of-the-line lavished-with-care demonstration Uebels and Toscas at Clarinetfest a few years ago was unexpectedly thrilling. It makes me laugh at myself - a self-teaching isolated pretentious nobody with a great clarinet? - but, haha, I might do it.
Philip,
I can tell you from my own experience that a brand new "good" instrument feels just so mush better than the old one (even though my old R13 is in almost perfect condition). The tone, response, tuning are better on current pro models than on vintage instruments (most of the times).
Prestige level Buffets (Prestige RC, Festival or prestige R13), Selmer Muse all do play very very nicely. As well as the top of the line Yamaha Artist, Uebel Zenith and Superior II.
I personally do not need the clarinet I have for my level of playing, but it feels so nice to have one.
One thing you can do in order to save some money is to buy the instrument in Europe- that's how I was able to afford the clarinets I currently have. You can e-mail me if you want any tips on buying an instrument abroad.
If money is no object, then a trip to a reputable shop owned by a knowledgeable performer is the way to go. No online shopping from WWBW, etc (IMO).
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-09-05 03:40
The sharpness turns out to be caused by something that I've been doing differently relating to sound production, which I started working on last winter. Until just recently I didn't connect what I was doing with a general pitch change. But it consistently raises pitch from bottom to top some 20+ cents.
Note, I wasn't "flat" before I started changing my sound technique, nor did I have a poor sound. But I'm amazed to learn that general pitch could be raised the way it has.
Confusion arose because I wasn't consistently using the new technique; I usually warmed up other stuff first, then added my "new sound" stuff. But some of the pitch checks I made on my Bb and A were with the new technique, and some were without. I think I've got that clarified now, and I think I can play either way on either or any clarinet - but I want the new sound. New sound, old pitch. I'm working on it.
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Author: 245264ycl
Date: 2023-09-06 20:18
Lots of space devoted to Philip’s first world problem (I say in jest).
My over active salivary glands and at times, perhaps due to the change in shape of my oral cavity.
Gary
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-10-15 17:53
Philip, could you describe what your "new sound stuff" is about? I'm intrigued by the overall 20 cents sharpness it causes, of the whole register from top to bottom. Could come in handy for anyone playing in unusually cold conditions (I once played inside a snow castle at about + 5 Celsius/41 F, another time outside on sea ice at about 0 C/32 F ).
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Author: moma4faith
Date: 2023-10-16 23:39
I am also interested in these new sound production techniques that you've been working on. Would you care to elaborate on what you've been doing?
I'm glad you have it figured out. Now, are you still wanting to try one of those newer instruments? I have just recently "retired" my R-13, made in the 70's, and owned/played by me since 1987. I will probably pick it up again, every now and then. I can't right now, as I am working on bonding with my newer instrument, learning the subtleties of its intonation, shading, tone, response and all the other fun stuff.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-10-20 19:31
Hi Micke and moma4faith. I'm reluctant to give details here publicly, because I'm a long-time self-teacher, and hah, what I might hear back scares me a little. My credibility is zilch, so either this makes sense on its own or not.
Btw, I'm not an advocate of self-teaching. Having a good teacher is by far the best way.
What I changed this summer that probably affected pitch stemmed from a discovery I made last winter. That concerned the necessary independence of tongue and lower jaw. I'd been practicing bending clarion tones, and it appeared that bending could if desired be done without moving the jaw at all, just the tongue. I practiced that on each note, noticing the different flexion points along the tongue for each, trying to see how far they'd bend, making low clarion B bend, trying to play fragments of chromatic scale by bending a single note, smearing notes together, using it for vibrato, trying it in chalumeau - that kind of thing. Undirected, not systematic. Just tongue, no jaw. NOTE, you can strain the tongue doing this: it has to be built up gradually.
Every time I practiced that way, my tone would sound much better afterward: fuller, sweeter, more controlled. Still does. My model now assumes that the tongue voices not just pitch, but tone. The jaw function and purpose are separate and controlled separately - a separate subsystem. When altering the tongue, whether for articulation or pitch or tone, the jaw mustn't move in tandem, or even flex differently: it just keeps doing its own program. (And vice versa: jaw change shouldn't alter tongue.)
It seems I'd been inhibiting tone production with unnoticed and unnecessary changes with my jaw (which a teacher would have stopped, for sure.) The active use of the tongue to voice tone was part of what I changed about the time my overall pitch went higher. I'm arching my tongue a lot to tension it, in all registers for every note. It supports resonance, or maybe better, it reflects it.
Other muscles can also support resonance, and in particular, the soft palate and uvula are both muscular; the soft palate opens/closes the air passage to the nostrils. You can tension those muscles and feel resonance with them. I've been working on that as well.
Thus, I've been consciously adding muscular tension along my inner air passage to promote resonance. If some of those points of consciously added tension had hung slack(er) before, then wouldn't that "tightening up" raise pitch? I haven't dug through acoustic theory yet, but my provisional theory says, "it could." That would mean it's ME that's sharper, not the clarinet.
That whole theory of inner resonance is not one discussed here, or maybe anywhere, and that's strong reason to assume it's inaccurate. I've long continued following it because it makes more sense to me than "fast air" and similar descriptions, and well, it's what I've got. With practice it's developed.
The greatest support for this theory, perhaps, has come very recently, just this fall: a new "discovery", and the most awesome thing I've ever stumbled on in my long solitary stumbling path. Breath support, an expression I've heard a million times: hah and aha, now I think I know what it means - for myself at least.
My personal revelation is, you tighten the abdominals not merely to push air; you tighten them to **resonate**, to reflect and support resonance. It's exactly like a singer does to project a singing tone, they fill their chest and abdominal air column with resonance. It's palpable from your lips to your bottom, pressing and vibrant, and you contain it actively, with muscular tensioning. In this way, you literally ARE your sound. Thus, "breath support" currently means to me, "air column active containment with muscular tensioning."
At this point, abdominal tensioning seems to me to be the principal system of tone generation, with embouchure & voicing & etc. being secondary systems. I'm just starting to practice it, but when it gets working, everything else just falls into place, both physically and conceptually. Its effect is so strong it overrides small mistakes in secondary systems, and just keeps producing good strong sound (at any volume.) The scope for expressive power and control this seems to open for me is boggling. I can sing my music now. I've been adding a second two-hour practice some evenings just to enjoy it.
Any teachers or good clarinetists who are still reading must be smiling at a self-teacher finally stumbling onto basics they could have been taught years ago. Then again, I've never seen or heard anything in my terms about it, so maybe not. And maybe all this is nothing, or something that only will work for me, etc. Caveat, caveat. Question asked, answer attempted. Fall gently, chips, I beg.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-10-21 11:48
Philip, thank's for sharing. I really like your analytical and experimental approach, and I'm also glad on your behalf that you get a lot of enjoyment from your progresses. Isn't a happy player in itself something most valuable, whatever path you get there?
You may be right that the effect of strained vs relaxed muscles along the bodily airways directly on the vibrating air column hasn't been discussed on this forum, but at least I am convinced that "everything" that is shaping that air column as well as resonating with it behind the mouthpiece tip opening, has as much bearing on the final tone quality as "everything" similar past that tip opening (as I commented some time ago also on another thread here).
Just a question about your previous comment about trying to maintain the same tone quality you have now achieved along with raised pitch, but at a "normal" pitch level (required in ensemble settings): If you haven't already sorted it out, how about just loosening your "lip grip" around your mouthpiece, while maintaining everything else (tongue position, breath support, etc)? Would your tone quality stay the same, just at a lower pitch level? If so, that could actually indicate that you've previously worked unnecessary hard with your embouchure, and that you could now enjoy also the benefits of a more relaxed one - while keeping your improved tone quality.
On the other hand, if you feel that a more relaxed embouchure is harming your tone quality, maybe you could do some experimenting with your mouthpiece intake - perhaps taking in just a little bit more than before? Or, trying just a tad softer reeds?
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