 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-14 11:28
Perhaps on the soprano clarinet , the matter of which of these two standard plating metals is most resistant to corrosion from sweaty fingers is not that much of a muchness , but on the bass with its requirement for greater finger pressure to play, a single playing session can leave the touch pads quite heavily tarnished ....so much so that a quick rub with a silver polishing cloth does not cut the mustard . This upkeep strikes me as being more of a issue with silver that with Nickel .
This matter also got me wondering a bit ,if there exist metal purity differences in platings . Is silver plating always pure silver ? .....is Nickel plating always pure Nickel ?
My bit of research into the matter of sweat corroding metals seems to suggest that the notion I've heard a few time that some people's sweat it extra acid is untrue . While sweat does contain Folic acid ,the differences in PH between the sweat of one person and another are apparently negligible. The principal corrosive component in sweat is offered as being salts, which are concentrated and remain deposited as the moisture evaporates , so how much ones hands are sweating is presumably the key factor .Well ! .....Plus length of exposure to the metal and also finger pressure it appears .
If anyone can can fill it any blanks or make any related observations on this issue I'm all ears .
Thanks . Julian .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-05-14 15:07
I am one who tears through silver quite readily. i never knew why but I do know that some have this issue and others don't even know what we are talking about.
two things:
For every day maintenance use a 100% cotton cloth (flannel is good). DO NOT use a polishing cloth (regularly) because its job is to remove layers of material to expose non oxidized metal.
The lasting quality has more to do with the thickness of the plating. Here in the States instruments are provided with a very thin coating of usually no more than 3 microns (Uebel is the exception at 10 or more.....much better).
If you do take daily care, there is no difference between nickel and silver other than the surface of the nickel being more "slidy" and the silver being more "tacky." I prefer "slidy" but get there with Yamaha's nickel/gold (Hamilton plating......also really thin).
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-05-14 16:37
My first clarinet (soprano) was a Noblet with nickel plated keys, which in a few years got permanently tarnished at the spots most in contact with my fingers - and at some places also got corroded completely through the nickel, exposing the reddish layer underneath. Because of that, I've since only had clarinets with silver plated keys, with no problems at all.
My current clarinets I've had for 20+ years, and only earlier this year at an overhaul by the maker, they replated some of the keys of the B-flat - but I myself wasn't aware of such a need, with any visible such signs.
I also have access to a Leblanc bass with nickel plating, with the same problems as with my Noblet. About two years ago I saw a suggestion here about putting adhesive aluminum tape on the affected touch pieces, which I did. So far it has lasted perfectly well, with no signs of wear - so maybe aluminum tape is more long lasting than nickel plating?  Perhaps not the most beautiful solution though, but at least it will protect the nickel from further corrosion.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-14 16:47
Yes indeed Paul ,
The problem with the bass ( a Ridenour Lyrique .. Silver plated ) , is that after one playing session the most frequented keys are quite heavily stained and there's just no shifting it with a silver polishing cloth ( or not one I've found ).
I have little doubt that by having to polish with polish so frequently, I'm probably
not extending the life of the plating much more if any , than just letting the corrosion stand.
The first horn I ever bought was a second hand Boosey Regent and it wasn't until I eventually got other instruments that I became aware of corrosion from sweaty fingers as being an issue . This Boosey always looked ( still does !) like it's poised for shooting a toothpaste commercial....and then perhaps invading Afganistan.....and perhaps even in reverse order ...Ha-ha!.
Whoever plated that horn , I with they would come plate the rest of mine .
Aside from the matter of plating thickness , is there a variation in the quality of plating , ie. Is the silver of silver plating always the same quality (pure silver) ?
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-14 16:58
Thanks Micke ,
Wasn't ignoring your reply......just writing at the same moment .
I have thought that something like adhesive aluminum might be better than letting those most affected touch pads go to **** .
I've also tried nail varnish and Zapon lacquer and in several coats but it only holds up s week or so ....so not worth it .
This all strikes me as very much a bass problem relating to the extra finger pressure....definitely not the same playing a soprano .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-05-14 18:09
I refer to a new horn, or newly plated horn. You use the 100% cotton cloth to remove whatever causes the oxidation whether it be salt or acid (wasn’t much for chemistry). If you cause an oxidized spot, it is from many uses prior. And any polishing agent will only exacerbate the problem over time for very short term aesthetic satisfaction.
…………Paul Aviles
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-14 19:43
Indeed I am referring to a new bass .
I guess I'll just do the best I can to keep it looking that way and then eventually just let it slide into the inevitable " Old veteran " look which is kind of cool .
It's only a cosmetic detail after all !
My old dad used to say that a good car was one which if you banged into something , you couldn't tell which was the new dent . ( Oh happy days !)
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: pukalo
Date: 2023-05-14 22:04
I kind of need to have nickel plated keys because I have a mild allergy to silver.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-14 23:58
Hi Pukalo ,
That's got me thinking ........ Perhapse my bass has just got an allergy to ME !
" Can't that fool see that whenever he touches me I break out in a rash ?...........
I'm in agony while he just thinks he's getting good at altissimo! " .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: pukalo
Date: 2023-05-15 00:06
Julian you probably have highly acidic sweat, which easily corrodes silver plating.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2023-05-15 02:31
I played a Buffet pre-R13 for decades without any wear to the keys. It was the cheaper model with the (dull) nickel plating. So I didn't realize that my finger chemistry would be a problem.
Several years ago, I bought a Ridenour Libertas clarinet. I love it, except that within a year I noticed considerable wear on the plating, which I assume is nickel. (The sulfur in hard rubber oxidizes silver.)
Finally, copper started showing and green copper compounds were coming off onto my fingers. When I had other work done on the clarinet, I had the four ring assemblies (which showed a lot more wear than the keys) re-plated. When that started to wear, I used silver nail polish covered by clear nail polish, and plan on re-applying the clear polish occasionally. Hopefully that will postpone the problem long enough.
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2023-05-15 14:48
A long time ago, I read about a man who had a problem with his firearms corroding with touch. When he reduced the amount of salt in his diet, this problem went away.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-15 20:01
Burt,
Tom Ridenour says that if the plating goes on your Libertas, don't worry because it will still play beautifully .
Typical down to earth battlefield philosophy from the Mikhail Kalashnikov of the clarinet world . Ha-ha !
Michael,
So what you're saying is that maybe I should eat less salt and also I will need to play from memory inside a dog ?
I think that the best reply to that is " love flies like an arrow......fruit flies like bananas " . (Gotta love the man!)
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-15 22:22
@ Julian, (quickly during work, but can goo deeper into it if requested)
Plating is a complicated issue! just as mouthpieces and playing the clarinet..
Quality of plating is depended many factors.
1) first of all, is the bath old / new,
2) the plated items are properly cleaned (also to do with old / vs new bath).
3) What base materials are used,
4) The plating conditions them selves (V / Amp / Time).
5) what electrodes are used, although this is fairly standard.
Theoretically speaking it is possible to plate sterling silver (92.5% Silver, 7.5% copper) instead of fine silver. but since the prices of silver are very low nowadays it will have no economic benefit so you can assume it is not done.
Base metals for silver will be brons and brass, base metals for nickel is usually 2 layered, with the top layer being copper (red copper) for a better bond between the layers.
Nickel is a much harder material then silver so it will wear slower, it is also quite tarnish proof because it is plated very densely. Silver itself is also quite tarnish proof but it tends to plate with pores. so proper silver plating on items that have ware on the would need to be several layers, with tumbling inbetween the layers to close the pores. Generally this is not done though. If not done.., the aminoacids and sulfer will go through the pores and tarnish the copper based base materiels, this will make the silver black! and you can only stop this by properly burnishing close the pores by non-abrasive tumbling. I am just not sure if you want to do that with instrument gear as it will be less straight when coming out then going in. Anyways.. only thickening the layer of silver would not make it better!
Sweat wise, a few things should be considered, but the main culpret there is sulfer and amino acids in the sweat. Salt definately doesn't help, but sweat is salty.. wouldn't be good if it wasn't. So besides going down on salt in the dieet, also go down on the sulfer containing food sources like eggs :D, and sweet more often for longer periods of time (Sauna's are perfect for that), this will make the sweat "cleaner".
Generally speaking the ideal white plated material whould be rhodium (but this would be a lot more expensive and would not necessairly be much better then rhodium. Best thing to do is invest in a proper, high quality plating sequence.
About how to clean.. well anything that cleans will remove silver period!
It will take longer or less longer to wear through, but it will finally.
Silver polishing cloths will ofcourse remove some silver but they will also close up the pores. Cotton on the other hand is used at high speed to brase silver as it has excellent cutting properties. So I would personally tend to stay away from that, it definately will cut of silver. Best natural materials would be (pure) hemp. those are long soft fibers that will not tend to cut (as much as the others), silk or synthetics.
Kind greats
Matthieu
Post Edited (2023-05-15 22:35)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-05-16 14:23
The "cutting" comment is a bit intellectually dishonest. Anything "at a high rate of speed" will cause a cutting effect. There are high speed nozzles that allow water to cut through steel.
The cloth is meant to be used every day AFTER playing. The cloth is to be absorbent. The absorbency takes away the chemical residue left from one's body chemistry (whatever that is).
You wipe, not grind. This will keep whatever plating you have to remain looking like new (see, I appreciate aesthetics) for many years despite a particularly harmful personal chemistry (and that IS my problem).
And I would further disagree with the idea that plating thickness is not an issue. I had Wurltzer 100Cs for about 12 years which feature a stupid thick silver plating. There was never any issue with the plating on those clarinets. And I began with using a polishing cloth every six months.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-16 17:12
@ Paul,
concerning a cutting comment. True and untrue.. speed (actually pressure) is absolutely a factor, but not the only! Water can cut through almost anything with the right pressure. Water is a VERY special molecule, bi polar, strong surface tension, uncompressable. so water is more that the thrusth crushing liquid we drink. do not underestimate it. Still Cotton will have more a cutting effect then any most other pieces of cloth, which will be noticed after extended repeated use.
Hemp and silk are also absorbent..
The comment on plating issue was meant to compare a thick porrous layer (like used to metalise kids shoes or something stupid (IMHO) like that) vs a thinner burnished layer. If Wurlitzer used the correct way (multiple layers with tumbling/burnishing) in between it would definately increase the quality of the plating.
but as I said, this is generally not done, generally does not mean never and people choosing for quality will. It's a choose.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-17 00:35
Hi Mathtieu,
Somehow it doesn't surprise me that you have researched this matter in great depth . Thank you for sharing .
It seems that your sources offer the principal corrosive in sweat as somewhat different to mind , but unless one is going to experiment with changing ones diet ,then this probably isn't worth debating . Personally I'm going to go on eating my eggs ....and with salt . Ha-ha !
I do like the sauna angle and think that it's a great negligence that it's not mentioned on any clarinet maintenance instruction guides I've ever seen.
Is seems that the general consensus is that silver and nickel plating are equally resistant to corrosion with silver perhaps coming out a bit on top . In view of the fact that rather than a quick clean of the keys with a silver cleaning cloth or just cotton rag , I am finding that after a single session I'm getting stubborn black staining on the bass keys, got me thinking about silver's micro-porosity . It just seems like the extra finger pressure required to play the bass is driving sweat into the metal . Nickel is apparently not micro-porous like silver , but I guess it may corrode equally for other reasons .
I think that the question that's really in my mind regarding this matter is ...Is it better to remove this staining although it requires using metal polish which will no doubt take a little of the plating every time ?
Or should I just wipe the keys clean but leaving the dark tarnish ?
I've always assumed that corrosion is something which tends to snowball if left to stand, because the resulting micro-pitting increases the surface area to oxidation and also traps corrosives .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-17 01:44
Nickel is more reactive to sweat, but just barely since sweat is only slightly acidic, as you are already aware. Wear of any instrument plating, be it nickel or silver or gold, is more mechanical than chemical.
Silver is less reactive to sweat, but is softer and tarnishes readily in air. So you have to keep it polished to keep it looking good, and that removes material every time you do it.
I personally hate silver instruments due to the high maintenance required to keep them looking good. I'll take good old nickel any time. I have hundred year old nickel instruments that look like new, whereas my silver instruments are black within a week.
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2023-05-17 02:05
Paul Aviles wrote:
> The "cutting" comment is a bit intellectually dishonest.
> Anything "at a high rate of speed" will cause a cutting effect.
> There are high speed nozzles that allow water to cut through
> steel.
>
Pure waterjet cutting is only used to cut soft materials, like fabrics, thin plastics, metal foils, rubber, paper, cardboard.... To cut steel, an abrasive, usually garnet, is incorporated into the water stream.
For example, the high-end of waterjet cutter pressure is around 85,000 - 90,000 psi. It takes 85,000 psi to cut through a 1/40" thick sheet of aluminum. Steel, of course, is harder than aluminum and more difficult to cut. To say that, with current technology, there are high speed nozzles that allow water to cut through steel is a bit intellectually dishonest.
John
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-17 02:23
@ Smokingdok
Addition of garnet to the water stream?!, very interesting! I never knew that!.
@ Lydian
Quote:
Nickel is more reactive to sweat, but just barely since sweat is only slightly acidic, as you are already aware. Wear of any instrument plating, be it nickel or silver or gold, is more mechanical than chemical.
/Quote.
absolutely true, hence the reason I said Rhodium (or Palladium) would be your best bet. Highly precious, will withstand allmost any corrosives onder normal live conditions and when polished it will not (easily) cut away like silver, nickle or gold as it has very high cohesion forces, so you move it moleculairly from one place to the other instead of cutting it away and loosing thickness.
@ Julian:
Quote:
I do like the sauna angle and think that it's a great negligence that it's not mentioned on any clarinet maintenance instruction guides I've ever seen.
/Quote.
Well I couldn't agree more. I vote to add Sauna subsciptions to the purchase of any clarinet.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-17 10:34
Lydian,
What you're saying definitely fits with my impression too .
I guess that one thing is how the two metals stand up if wiped clean after each use , and another is probably how they each endure being just left with sweat deposits standing . It seems to me that silver is quicker to develop a more ingrained tarnish, but as I've previously mentioned , this impression of mind may be biased by comparing nickel plating on my sopranos with silver plating on my bass . I'm pretty convinced that the rapid tarnish problem is very much related to the greater finger pressure required to play the bass . I also have an old Bundy bass , but I got that with the nickel shot already , so I can't reasonably compare .
I haven't yet heard anyone else agree that the tarnish issue escalates with the bass due to the extra finger pressure , which makes me feel like I'm a bit of a biological freak . Ha-ha !
Sorry if I've seeming ignored other replies !.....must run to work !... Thank all !
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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