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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-04-17 21:23
How are the Silverstein German reeds compared to the Legere German Cut Classic ones (not the Legere German Signature)?
How does sound and response compare, and how are the strengths related (as an example, what Silverstein German strength would be equivalent to a Legere German Classic 3.5 - or other numbers)?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-18 14:43
I made a dive back into German mouthpieces with the Gleichweit D4-2, ostensibly to make this very comparison. Since Wenzel Fuchs actually makes an endorsement of the German cut Silverstein (not an insignificant gesture) it seemed reasonable to try them.
I made my comparison using a very old Legere German cut reed from about 2014 or so (don't have the exact date of manufacture). This reed is either a 2.5 or 2.75 that makes the Gleichweit sing. By comparison, the Silverstein left me wondering why they even bothered to bring this thing to market. I tried the three softest versions with second and third strengths already being too hard.
Where everything with this whole experiment went off the rails was when I tried the Legere Signature German cut reeds. Those matched the performance of the Silverstein in every way, the sound was not centered, it was erratic from register to register and they go from too soft to much to hard (and weird). If you look at the Legere Signature vamp under a light (reflecting the light back at yourself) you see that Legere put in about four "mounds" of material along the spine (center) of the heart. You can almost predict where the reed will vibrate oddly on the clarinet.
Then, I have to say that the current version of the Classic Legere German cut reed is not much better in comparison with my "classic" Legere from the past. My guess is that when Legere went to the printed strength versions of their reeds and they made the Signature Soprano Sax reeds out of the same material as their Euro reeds (which changed slightly as well but at least work for the size and shape of those reeds), they made the change to the Classic German reeds too.
For me, the German Legere reeds are not working well enough to continue using them. There are still White Master Tradtional German cut reeds from Vandoren until Legere finds themselves again.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-18 14:52
Attachment: Legere Comparison.jpg (94k)
I have enclosed a photo of my "old" German reed vs. the new Legere Signature German. The new Legere Classic German is the same.....without the bumps.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-04-18 21:30
Thank's a lot Paul, very good to know.
I haven't tried the Legere German Signature myself, but I have heard also from others that it's very different from the Classic and that it doesn't seem to be too popular (also the strengths differ from the Classic, despite the Legere strength chart showing them to be equal - Legere themselves told me that the Signature is a tad softer than the Classic).
I also still have a few "old stock" Legere German cut reeds (now 14 years since I bought them), and despite that Legere told them to be equal in strength with the current German Classics, the old ones are definitely stronger (at least the ones I have, where an old stock 3.0 would match a current Classic 3.5).
I'm also overall preferring cane over these, but I use the Legeres occasionally for practicing. The chalumeau is quite good with the German Classic, but I'm not too happy with the clarion - and at least for me, they also articulate slower.
Post Edited (2023-04-18 21:45)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-18 22:55
For me the Signatures were much harder. I was playing 3.0 from WWBW about five years ago. With the Signatures I’m at 2.5. As for response I do better with mouthpieces with thin rails. Most of the mouthpieces recommended for use with Legere have thicker rails. That said the Gleichweit is just a hair less responsive than I’d prefer BUT the sound is so amazing I could care less! I used to play Wurlitzer M3+.
…………Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-20 18:01
So I want to retract a lot of what I said. Either due to trying to adapt to too many differences or a need to play on the reed at least a few days, I’ve found the new Legere Classic German to be quite good. No one could be happier about this than I. Also I think I anticipated using the 3.0 strength where I left off five years ago but that changed now to the 2.5. That does leave why the old reed worked great in both time periods a bit of a mystery.
The flat side of the old reed has a “mirror” finish. So I placed the new reed flat upon a piece of plain white paper (lying on a flat surface) and polished (rubbed back and forth) to shiny appearance. This actually seems to help along with “breaking in.”
……………Paul Aviles
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Author: mddds
Date: 2023-04-22 00:27
hi all,
i've been exclusively using Legere German Classic reeds for the past 4 years but am now looking for a different solution.
i noticed a sudden change after Legere began printing the strength on the reed. the newer equivalent reeds to me play softer and choke/grunt. however, i had trouble playing the reeds of the next strength up (they sound harsh and also choke/grunt). this is consistent across 30 of the new generation reeds (2.5 and 2.75 strength).
i contacted Legere. the rep wrote that there were NO changes in any formulation or parameters from the old stock to the new reeds. he advised me to get the next strength up and take in more mouthpiece.
looking at the two models side-by-side, i can already tell that the reeds are not identical. the herringbone patterns are different.
i ordered a trial pack of Silversteins which should arrive on monday.
i'll provide an analysis of that next week.
-CK
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Author: mddds
Date: 2023-04-22 00:33
paul,
i noticed that the flat side of both generation Classic German Legeres have the textured herringbone pattern and are not flat or shiny. in fact, they've left indentations on the mpc (the lay is no longer smooth, but finely textured).
looking at the flat side of the reed - there is a smooth border, likely where the reed vibrates against the mpc.
i'll try smoothing the flat side to see what it does to the response.
-CK
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-22 03:31
Hey mddds,
Funny I was just about to quote you to you!
But I think I am noticing that the "newer" Classic German are actually about 90% of a half strength harder than their earlier version. So where I left off at #3.00 strength reed, the one that is really clicking for me now is a #2.5. With me it's tough to say for sure because there was a considerable time away from the German mouthpieces and further changes to how I play, BUT the modern #2.5 compares very closely to that old reed I worship. Back in the day, that old reed compared favorably to the #3.00 Classic German (I don't even think there was that distinction back then).
Have you tried a full half strength softer (such as a #2.00 instead of a #2.5)?
I say 90% because ideally I wish the #2.5 that is working for me now was just a hair stronger. Moving up to the #2.75 is just too strong for me.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-22 04:39
OK..........
.........SO.............
I'm working this issue with the Legere Classic German cut reeds out in REAL TIME.
sorry
What I tried just now was to polish the flat surface of the latest #2.75 Classic German. This is really good. Perhaps the strengths went up a full quarter.....and no more?
This will take more trial and error (emphasis on error) but starting off on a reed that is too hard would explain why it just doesn't work right. Then if you assume you need to go up in strength that result would naturally be even worse.
For now I'll go back to the horn and see I feel tomorrow.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: mddds
Date: 2023-04-25 21:01
hi all,
this is in response to the original question the OP posted.
i received the Silverstein reeds yesterday and i trialed them last night so i'll give you my initial review.
i usually play 2.5, sometimes 2.75 Legere Classic Germans.
i received 2.5, 2.5+, and 3 Silverstein German.
all 3 Silversteins chirped across the break (2.5 > 3 > 2.5+).
Strength match: 2.5+ best strength match.
Flat altissimo notes: On all 3 reeds, all notes above high D were at least 20 cents flat. (i'm usually sharp with the legeres).
Altissimo notes: i could not make very high A and Bb speak at all.
Uneven scale: certain notes like G (at the top of the staff) had a tendency to pop out.
Tone: Overall harsh sounding esp low notes.
Articulation: Very slow and resistant
Other: Difficult to hold down and tie the reed. the flat side of the reed is smooth, unlike the Legere. i eventually resorted to using a Luyben.
i'm not sure if i need more time to adjust to the new reed feel.
i tried this on 2 mpc and on my B and A clarinets.
maybe they will be better matched with some other mpc that i don't regularly use - i'll try those tonight.
-CK
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Author: mddds
Date: 2023-04-25 23:02
also of note.....
the Silversteins play slightly better compared to Playnick Mastercut Synthetic reeds.
again, tested on 2 Playnick mpc on the B and A.
-CK
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-04-27 17:34
Thank you mddds for your detailed review, much appreciated.
May I ask which Playnick, or possible other mouthpieces you made your trials on?
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Author: mddds
Date: 2023-04-27 20:17
hi micke,
on the B: Playnick D2
on the A: Playnick Solist N1
Wurlitzer 100C/S Set
String Ligature
i will try them on some other mpc tonight and report.
i tried playing the 2.5+ Silverstein during rehearsal last night, but i gave up very shortly due to incessant chirping.
-CK
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Author: mddds
Date: 2023-04-28 18:46
last night, i trialed the Silverstein reeds on my other mpcs (Playnick D3, Wurlitzer 3WZ, Wurlitzer WZ2).
the 2.5 is the softest strength avail from Silverstein. this strength was still on the resistant side overall. the 2.5+ was almost unplayable. i didn't bother playing the 3.
the chirping did go away somewhat.
overall, still harsh sounding and resistant (3WZ > WZ2 > D3)
the same problems i mentioned earlier but magnified (flat altissimo), uneven scale.
the D3 was the closest match compared to the Wurlitzers.
the WZ2 was designed to play Vandoren V12 reeds so i'm a little confused as to why it played better than the 3WZ.
these 3 mpc seem to require a 1/4 softer Legere reed compared to the first two.
i might order some softer Legeres and allow these mpc to see the light of day after sitting in my drawer for 7years.
i think i'm going to return the Silversteins as they have some work to do.
i hope this helps.
-CK
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-04-28 21:08
mddds wrote:
> last night, i trialed the Silverstein reeds on my other mpcs
> (Playnick D3, Wurlitzer 3WZ, Wurlitzer WZ2).
>
> the 2.5 is the softest strength avail from Silverstein. this
> strength was still on the resistant side overall. the 2.5+ was
> almost unplayable. i didn't bother playing the 3.
>
> the chirping did go away somewhat.
>
> overall, still harsh sounding and resistant (3WZ > WZ2 > D3)
>
> the same problems i mentioned earlier but magnified (flat
> altissimo), uneven scale.
>
I, too, have tried a number of different synthetic reeds over the past several years and, with the exception of Legere, have found them all unplayable on any of the many mouthpieces I own. Legeres are, to me, not as satisfying to play as good, well balanced cane reeds, but are at least serviceable in most situations with most of my mouthpieces.
Which begs two questions:
Are these synthetics being developed solely by engineers with no musician input until they hit the retail market (is anyone who actually plays clarinet testing them)?
Or, are the clarinetists who test them using mouthpieces that none of us use? Maybe it would be helpful if at least for the early samples of new synthetic reeds the manufacturers would identify on the labelling what mouthpieces the reeds were tested on.
Karl
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Author: mddds
Date: 2023-04-28 23:16
hi karl,
i posed your questions to Legere. he basically said testing is done on a variety of mpc and players to ensure that it works for as many as possible.
regarding the classic german line: "...testing for this was done by german players brought to canada. the signature german line was made during a year long trip to germany w german players from significant orchestras and others in the city/region. the Berlin phil was among them."
the Legere classic german line is over 13 years old. i thought i read that the Vandoren synthetics were 7y in development. i don't know how long Silverstein has been in development.
so maybe the other companies still need time to refine their reeds.
-CK
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