 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: allencole
Date: 2022-09-22 20:26
Trying to get my middle schoolers oiled up to know their 7 scales for All-District Band auditions in January, and then I see THIS.
Over the last 30 years, I've seen chromatic requirements shrink from nearly 3 to 2, and now 1 octaves. Now, 2nd octave is optional for everything, and speed is regulated to a standard tempo.
Only two major scales required to be known. (it used to be that you had to know 7, and would only be asked for two)
https://www.vboda1.org/_files/ugd/f1cb32_59d4c439dd8a4186b6bb9b4b034b3544.pdf
Does nobody what to KNOW if a kid can play further, faster and more rhythmically? Does nobody want to know if a sax player masters his/her high F# key?
5 or 6 years ago, I had a high school clarinetist who mastered a 3-octave B-flat scale (her key) just for the fun of it, and she sounded good. Icing on the cake for a terrific young player who was also an ace sightreader. When they asked for her Bb scale, she gave them all 3 octaves, but received a very low score and didn't even make the upper of the two groups. (as if they didn't believe she did the correct scale) Her next year, she was asked for Bb again and played only 2 octaves, scoring near the top overall. Not much incentive to go above and beyond.
I know that most of my kids will never see a symphony seat, but I'm definitely not training them to be overwhelmed by a community band. How do we drop standards on even the most basic competencies?
Allen Cole
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-09-22 20:53
I know in some states they do not take points off if you play additional octaves. I can't imagine why ANYONE would knock down a score for that.......or at least any real musician.
It is frustrating to see stuff dumbed down rather than push kids to work a little harder.
Post Edited (2022-09-22 20:54)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2022-09-22 22:01
With a 3-octave Bb scale, she got a 2 out of 10. My main conclusion would be disbelief--how many of the judges maintain a 3-octave Bb scale themselves?
I judgee HS clarinets in the same district some years before that, and one of my jobs was to monitor the pitch of the scales to see if any students were giving us an F or G scale when E or F# was being asked for.
Our current All-State requirements do state that you play exactly as many octaves of a given scale as they specify.
Allen Cole
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-09-22 23:36
The justification, misguided as it may be, is that the comparisons ought to be made apples-to-apples and playing extra octaves is in effect changing one to oranges. It's a really pointless concern, IMO, because the student either knows the scale or doesn't. If the third octave seems exhibitionistic or gratuitous to the judges, they can just as easily ignore it and score on the basis of the two that are required.
As far as the scale requirements are concerned, I think what can happen in a given area (maybe yours or not) is that fewer students see value in auditioning for and playing in these auditioned groups at all. This tends to be a reflection of either the school music teachers' attitudes or those of the parents. The kids have many other outlets both within and outside of music. When an organization sees fewer and fewer kids even willing to audition from one year to the next, the tendency is to dumb down the audition - fewer and easier scales and easier solo pieces.
High school band teachers in this area still mostly require students to play 9 scales up to 4 sharps and 4 flats (generally only major scales, which is a separate discussion) with some middle school teachers cutting back to 3 of each (7 total).
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-09-23 01:33
I played in All County & (NY) All State Bands in the early '70s...if that's what you mean by All District Band. Anyway, all I recall doing for the tryout was 1st Movmt. of Weber's Concerto #2. I don't recall doing any scales, but I could be wrong as that was 50 years ago....
At any rate, one can learn all the scales/octaves through your private teacher and must do that if you want a career in music, regardless of school District requirements.
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tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2022-09-23 01:36)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2022-09-23 03:26
I'm hoping that the middle school thing I saw might hail back to COVID when they did taped auditions for All-District just for ranking and the band didn't actually meet.
I just hate to see things dumbed down that an average kid can do just fine. Major & chromatic scales are not that big a deal. It's a very high benefit-to-misery ratio.
Allen Cole
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2022-09-23 10:43
Around here high school band students must play scales, arpeggios, 3rds, and intervals in all major keys at a minimum tempo to get a passing grade. Also minor scales in all three forms. These are considered basic proficiencies. These requirements are spread over 4 years if needed and are not at all prohibitive for even average students (not studying privately) if taken seriously as a long term assignment.
At least one local middle school requires all the major scales, as did I when I when I was band director at that level. My private students play all their major and most (or all) of their minor scales and argeggios 2 or 3 octaves by the time they finish 8th grade, unless they start late, with few exceptions. They also play up to an altissimo A or at least an Ab with good fundamentals. It's not that difficult if paced and structured well, although it does take patience and perserverence for some. It's just one of the many things they do in lessons.
At least the requirements you posted are unambiguous! That's not always the case among our local youth orchestras.
Our honor bands in California require a chromatic scale to high E for middle school and to high G for high school. A few addtional scales are required each year, major and minor, in an articulated 16th note pattern at q=96. One to two octaves for middle school, depending on the scale - and two to three for high school. Perfectly reasonable, and many students play their scales decently but only those who really polish them are likely to get in. We don't have district band - just All Southern and All Northern, and then All-State. One can audition for the regional group or the state group, or both.
Anders
Post Edited (2022-09-23 10:44)
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Author: Reese Oller
Date: 2022-09-23 20:31
In Illinois (USA), we have ILMEA, and we must play every single scale, major and minor, in less than three minutes, with no halts, all quarter-and-sixteenth notes. Then two etudes, and then a sightreading piece. It's pretty intense for us!
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-09-24 04:02
In the Trinity College syllabus (the main competitor for ABRSM external exams) they have for some time offered an option to...
- do scales OR
- do a series of poorly chosen and edited orchestral extracts.
Basically, a joke.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-09-24 05:38
What these organisations require on their tests/auditions probably isn't very important since there are more incredible young clarinetists in the world than ever. All competing for a very select number of chairs in the professional world. Like you'll find some 14 year old somewhere that can rattle off the Nielsen.
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tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2022-09-24 05:39)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2022-09-24 06:35
Tom H wrote:
> What these organisations require on their tests/auditions
> probably isn't very important since there are more incredible
> young clarinetists in the world than ever. All competing for a
> very select number of chairs in the professional world. Like
> you'll find some 14 year old somewhere that can rattle off the
> Nielsen.
>
>
> Post Edited (2022-09-24 05:39)
I think what they require IS important because it has a significant impact on what is taught, when, and often how. It is not about catering to prodigies or creating performance professionals. The vast majority of music students will never fall into either of those categories. However, every student deserves to be challenged to explore their full potential and to have the opportunity to participate in the artistic life of their communities in a meaningful and satisfying way.
Anders
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-09-24 08:46
Anders-- Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. But I don't think these requirements by these organisations mean very much. The professional band I've played in for 35 years has seen countless young people (HS, college) playing with us "cutting their teeth" so to speak. I was one of those in bands/orchestras 50 years ago). The quality of playing of the young people added to our band hasn't IMO changed over the decades. They pretty much know all their scales, or at least the ones they must know to play such pieces as La Forza, Tschaikovsky's 4th, Silken Ladder, Thieving Magpie, etc.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-09-24 09:47
I really agree very much with Anders.
I think the music world is forgetting that there are a lot of people who would give their eye teeth to be able to sight read at about grade 2 on an instrument so that they could enjoy music in their community.
Many of these people probably aren't able to pay for lessons and might just be quietly scrabbling around alone. I think that if the syllabus gives the right requirements, then these people are much more likely to get to where they want to be.
For me, that means really well chosen targets on how to sight read timing, count pulse and get the major keys into their fingers.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2022-09-25 20:52
I think that some good, solid standards can be met. I see no reason why even a casual student can't memorize major scales and arpeggios in all octaves available in our practical range. Even older middle schoolers should be able to do it up to high E or F.
I try to get scales going as early as possible, as well as learning to extract the arpeggios. It's not rocket science, and I find that most students respond very well to these skills once they're using them to accomplish other tasks. It really helps to grease the skids if they understand WHY they're really doing it.
I generally don't feel like I'm pushing anyone to be a proto-professional. It's just a fact that in order to make music viable as a pastime, you need some skills--particularly on a band instrument.
No one should be going into some sort of honor band needing to be spoon-fed their basics.
Allen Cole
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-09-28 05:40
I'm always in favour of everyone knowing all scales, all octaves, etc. (though my posts may not be conveying that well...).
Something to consider I guess for the player who will not play professionally someday and will play in a community band-- How many concert band pieces are written for clarinets with key signatures of 7,6, or even 5 sharps or flats? I'm not saying you shouldn't know these scales 3 octaves, I'm just sayin'....
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2022-09-28 16:51
Hi Tom S. The United States Victor March by Rudolph Schirmer showed up in our community band folder one year. The trio is in Db major. I was all excited, lol, but our director chose not to program it.
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-28 17:07
Our band does a concerto with a select high school student every year. A couple years ago we did the Mozart Clarinet Concerto. The soloist played with an A clarinet but most of the band do not own A instruments so we played the accompaniment parts on Bbs which means they were all in 5 sharps...yuck.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2022-09-28 19:23
Hunter_100 wrote:
> Our band does a concerto with a select high school student
> every year. A couple years ago we did the Mozart Clarinet
> Concerto. The soloist played with an A clarinet but most of
> the band do not own A instruments so we played the
> accompaniment parts on Bbs which means they were all in 5
> sharps...yuck.
And some of those background parts are likely as hard as sections of the solo part! I ran across an old 'Music Minus One' of K.622 in a music store and was surprised to see it printed in A but for a Bb clarinet soloist-in...drum roll...5 #'s!
Should've bought it and took up the challenge!
Allen Cole
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-09-28 19:30
There's a 16 bar section in Cailliet's arrangement of Elsa's Procession (Wagner, Lohengrin) that's in Gb for the Bb instruments. My band (mostly high school) managed it when I last did it with them - at least most of them did.
Karl
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Author: allencole
Date: 2022-09-28 19:46
Tom H,
Sorry, I tried to quote you, but couldn't make it work. While you're correct in saying that most community bands aren't doing stuff in 5/6/7 sharps and flats, there are any number of situations where there are runs or patterns in these keys set up by accidentals rather than key signature. And when you have music to accompany any sort of vocal--well, all bets are off in terms of key.
I think that we should be INCREASING emphasis on difficult keys for the very reason that so many of us never see professional careers, but so many could be a very competent warm body in a community group. My own involvement in amateur groups and with teaching adult students, is that they don't understand how much we fudge things that they see as requiring absolute perfection and being difficult-to-impossible. I have often seen decently competent players sit in for one night and never return simply because they saw something they didn't understand, or sightread something less than perfectly.
I think that we can eliminate much of the fear of keys, by having simple music for students to play in those difficult keys. Too often, kids only learn to play in difficult keys after the music itself has become more daunting, and they have gone for years in easier keys. I'd rather have them learn a difficult scale, and play Ode to Joy, First Noel, Twinkle Twinkle, etc. at an earlier stage so that they overcome the fear of strange-looking stuff. There are ways to show them in simpler songs that some enharmonic spellings, including double sharps and flats, are actually a GOOD thing. It can a harder sell when their music already has their fingers flying.
Allen Cole
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-28 22:12
The ending of Holst's Jupiter for band is pretty ugly too. I think it is 6 or 7 flats for a couple measures of 16th runs.
I despise playing Elsa's procession. It just does not sound good for band.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-09-28 22:55
allencole, Yes I see your point. I agree. It is something I did not think of -- the runs. Back to key signatures-- I recall years ago our pro concert band did Light Cavalry which had at least a section in Db (or Bb minor)-5 flats. next time we did the piece the conductor elected to locate the arrangement that was basically in concert Bb....
On a Facebook group someone posted that he/she had all beginning clarinet students (private lessons I assume) learn ALL scales at least 2 octaves during the first year of lessons. Now THAT, seems a bit much....I know I didn't have to do that in 1964.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2022-09-28 22:57)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-09-28 23:31
Philip,
Just because a band can play the piece very very well (The marine band has a good recording too), does not mean I have to like the arrangement...or playing it myself. I like orchestra transcriptions in general, they are challenging and usually fun to play. I think Elsa should have been left in the orchestra, it sounds better on strings to me.
I will stop derailing this topic now.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2022-09-29 00:23
Wow! Hunter_100, I know what you're saying about Jupiter. The arrangement we did had pentatonic runs in D-flat, at least at the beginning of the movement. It really put me in the woodshed!
And Tom H., I agree that all scales in 2 octaves is a bit much for first year. I once had a sax student learn out to 4 sharps & 4 flats in his first year, but he had the hunger and I was just 'letting' him do it with minimal supervision. Interestingly, he came back after the summer with this idea of constructing his scales from tetrachords, and falling into all the overthinking that tends to go along with that methodology. I can remember telling him, "Ben, YOU ALREADY KNEW THE SCALES!--just do the tetrachords on your classroom quizzes"
Most of my guys get out to 2 sharps/flats first year, 4 sharps/flats 2nd year, and then we deal with the six-of-one/half-dozen-of-the-other set in 2nd or 3rd year. Fortunately, the Master Theory Workbook has some exercises which allow me to blast the kids with continuous accidentals--allowing them to see their scales and key signatures as a helpful solution, rather than yet another unwelcome mental burden.
So much teaching at early stages is a matter of sales pitch, and I'm very interested in sequencing things to emphasize cause/effect and problem/solution.
Allen Cole
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2022-09-29 01:28
I would imagine how much learning of scales (and other stuff) is also dependent on the age of the student. A 15 year old beginner can surely learn a lot more in the first year than when I started at age 10.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-10-04 02:08
If it has become only a bunch of busywork, students may not understand how important and desirable it is. If teachers were not paying attention, and perhaps were not properly trained themselves, they may have de-emphasized scales as a consequence.
I believe that it's the mental habit of MAKING scales in your head that improves your playing when sight reading, performing, or improvising.
It was only after I stopped looking at the music, and started working them out in my head, that I started getting any real benefit. I wouldn't have been able to do this had I never read them at all, but it was figuring things out myself that made it work.
1. If it's easy for a student to memorize music by simply reading it, reading the scales is probably fine, at least initially
2. Even so, they will only be familiar with the scale patterns that they read.
3. They may not understand what they are doing.
Depending on the music and scales they are working on, it may not be obvious that the scales are helping with the music. (If you are sightreading Bach it's wildly obvious...Ed Sueta, maybe less so...) They may conceptualize the scales as different things, rather than various forms of the same thing. If scales are presented in isolation from "music", they may not intuit how scale steps relate to one another, and also relate to harmony.
4. They will have less of the mental flexibility necessary to put the scales into practice.
5. It makes additional sharps and flats seem more intimidating.
6. It also tends to separate "music making" from "wood shedding", or "expression" from "technique". Insofar as it's possible, students should always be musical.
I guess I'm saying that it's one thing to properly emphasize learning scales and arpeggios, and another to simply require memorization from a certain book. Of course, it makes sense to standardize things in auditions and so on. But, like a lot of things in schools, the means sometimes gets confused with the end.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2022-10-04 02:12)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2022-10-04 08:21
Quote:
It was only after I stopped looking at the music, and started working them out in my head, that I started getting any real benefit.
Hear, hear!
This was true for me as well.
Perhaps my concentration was just that limited, but if I concentrated on the paper, my mind focused on reading/interpreting/playing the correct note on the paper - as the paper commanded, I did. (Which, of course, seldom worked out for me because rarely does a player get the chance to play three octaves of an unmodified scale in a performance piece - and those modifications would always throw me - my fingers always wanted to continue the pattern I had practiced so often.)
Without the paper, the sound itself dictated what I must do. So, in the end, I had to think a lot more about what I was hearing, and which fingering(s) would produce the next correct sounds/interval. Through this, I finally gained a bit of the understanding I had missed before. Those modifications in printed music might still throw me the first few times, but my ears and fingers were now better at working together at finding correct intervals.
It took my focus off of paper, and placed it squarely on sound.
Maybe not for everyone - but it sure helped me.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: allencole
Date: 2022-10-04 14:28
Attachment: Learning Your Scales for Keeps.pdf (562k)
Attachment: Scales Are Tools!.pdf (456k)
Amen, guys. The biggest problem for most kids is that they don't have a clue WHY they're learning scales. So yes, they're viewing them as busywork and something standardized to be tested on. Pass your test and then forget it. Many see no connection between scales and key signatures.
The second problem is that many of them are seriously overthinking in their memorization process. Too much mental calculation and not enough correct repetitions. I find that it's best to have them build the scale up note by note, so that any potential mistakes get worked out and not skipped over.
Once memorized via reps, start using it to play by ear as well as on paper. Most kids know the Ode to Joy, which at least works them on part of the scale. I'm sad to say that fewer and fewer know The First Noel, which is a great workout for the entire scale. The idea is that the scalewise nature of the melodies allows the student to just feel their way up and down using this physical THING they've just learned.
Another thing that I like to bring up with scales is the idea of 'hearing' what key you're in. Most songs end on the root note of the associated key/scale, and I find that playing a scale or scale fragment before and/or after the song helps to train young ears.
Here are a couple worksheets I give kids to supplement our discussions.
Allen Cole
Post Edited (2022-10-04 14:32)
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2022-10-04 18:22
Well, I'll tell you one thing - it may be a solo piece rather than ensemble but, if I'm going to perform the Brahms second sonata, you bet your life I'll be practising D flat major/B flat major in all sorts of patterns (down then up, in thirds, broken chords, interrupted groups of four)!
Also, another point is that scales build muscle memory for when you haven't time to fully read a passage at speed.
And don't forget that scales and arpeggios develop tone and intonation.
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2022-10-04 20:24
An excellent discussion with very good points.
Perhaps most important, the student must be told more than "practice scales and arpeggios". He/She needs to be told WHY we do this--What the objectives are, as other posters have described; and HOW to practice them properly (tempo that leads to success, evenness, light finger motion, proper air & embouchure, tone, etc.)
None of which was explained to me "back in the day", unfortunately. :(
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Author: Hardlec
Date: 2022-10-05 00:03
I used to play all 12, and then I tried pentatonic.
But I had to give up playing for about 20 years. I can play 8 now, C, up to three sharps and up to for flats. It has taken me a long time. From E below the staff to C above it. My altisimo is limited by my "lip."
If you are playing at a competition, play what the judge wants to hear.
When you play for a group, play what the group needs, then expand. I play with several community bands. I could get along fine with 8 scales.
But I will learn all 12 tonic and pentatonic.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-10-05 09:39
The hardest stuff for me to finger isn't necessarily what has the biggest key signature. It music that has unusual patterns.
For example: A Bach Gigue in 12/8 has sixteenth (1-2-3-2-1-3) at different steps of the scale. Like "Eb-F-G-F-Eb-G". It should be easy, but I wanted to play "Eb-F-G-Eb-F-G" because we practice broken scales like that. That's what Telemann or Handel would have written. My brain didn't want to switch. So, I have to think about it every time. I wonder if he did that on purpose, or if it never occurred to him to be "normal". LOL He's always mixing things up in ways you don't expect, except it's never gratuitous, it's always amazing.
Theoretically the Bach fingerings should be "in hand" because it's only steps and thirds, but you have to pay attention because the grouping is different from what you've practiced. That's what I meant by mental agility.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2022-10-05 10:00)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2022-10-05 10:31
Matt74 wrote:
> The hardest stuff for me to finger isn't necessarily what has
> the biggest key signature. It music that has unusual patterns.
>
>
> For example: A Bach Gigue in 12/8 has sixteenth (1-2-3-2-1-3)
> at different steps of the scale. Like "Eb-F-G-F-Eb-G". It
> should be easy, but I wanted to play "Eb-F-G-Eb-F-G" because we
> practice broken scales like that. That's what Telemann or
> Handel would have written. My brain didn't want to switch.
> So, I have to think about it every time. I wonder if he did
> that on purpose, or if it never occurred to him to be "normal".
> LOL He's always mixing things up in ways you don't expect,
> except it's never gratuitous, it's always amazing.
>
> Theoretically the Bach fingerings should be "in hand" because
> it's only steps and thirds, but you have to pay attention
> because the grouping is different from what you've practiced.
> That's what I meant by mental agility.
>
>
> Post Edited (2022-10-05 10:00)
In fast passages like that, could you be thinking too hard about specific note identities? Our learning of scales, and the use of key signatures, should enable us to look at the staff more simply like a graph in faster passages--particularly those where there are no accidentals. Trust yourself to hit notes scalewise when you have a smooth diagonal, and be more watchful of where you're headed when there's a third or similar jump.
Often, when you have a smooth motif with one steeper jump, it's been done to set you up for a similar motif one scale degree above or below the one you just played. And it's not just Baroque music. Similar fast patterns in pieces like Hungarian Dance No.5. Similar with Handel's Bourree from Water Music.
Allen Cole
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-10-06 04:21
Even though it's made up of common elements it's still unusual, so your brain has to learn a new pattern. As individual notes it's simple, but the pattern is unusual. You know how to play all the elements, they're easy. But, as a pattern you have to avoid doing what your brain has been trained to do, and play something different. Practicing scales gives you the technique, but you also need the mental flexibility to change things up. Practicing scales and patterns out of your head helps with that. That's all I was saying. IDK if it was the best example.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-10-06 18:10
I heard an interview with Andreas Ottensamer a while ago and he talked about what he'd played during lockdown to keep himself in shape. He referred to some studies by Alfred Prinz. I recognised that name but hadn't realised he'd written any studies. Turns out he'd also studied composition. Just had to get the studies out of curiosity. They're based on some standard orchestral excerpts, such as Nutcracker, Galanta, Shost 9, but work around the material, a similar idea to the Thurston Passage Studies. They're great for sending the fingers the wrong way with unexpected intervals, notes etc. Perhaps they're standard issue in the German or Viennese schools. Anybody else seen or used them?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-10-07 17:19
The Prinz studies elaborate around famous and difficult clarinet orchestral passages just as Ulysse Delecluse's 14 Grand Studies book does (pub. by A. Leduc). Mostly, the two books select different excerpts to woodshed and do so in different ways, so both are worth having.
Post Edited (2022-10-07 17:22)
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The Clarinet Pages
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