 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2022-07-22 01:34
Attachment: Screenshot 2022-07-21 at 22.34.12.png (100k)
just wondering whether the A here (in picture) should be tongued twice- once to start it and then again quickly to stop it?? or should the 'start' of it just be in the finger movement and it only be tongued to stop ??
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-07-22 03:02
Unless you are dealing with a very quick succession of notes (rapid sixteenth two tongued, two slurred) there should NOT be a stop to a note using the tongue. That sound is too abrupt, has no natural taper and must be avoided. Stopping a note happens at your mid section and is a function of the effort of your abdominal muscles being at equilibrium with the effort of your diaphragm (a perfect isometric exercise).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: AndyW
Date: 2022-07-22 22:02
Attachment: Screenshot 2022-07-22 at 18.59.04.png (29k)
ok, thanks Paul, I'm adept at stopping a note with breath control - but should I tongue-start the 'A' here (second example pic), or 'start' it as if it's part of the slurred group?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-07-22 23:37
I'm not sure about exactly what you are asking. But I'll answer in what may be just as confusing a way.
Robert Marcellus was pretty adamant about stopping the last note of a slur short PRIOR to a staccato note. In other words, you create a hair's more space between the slurred notes and the staccato note(s) for clarity.
Hovever
Another clarinetist I highly respect, Michael Rusinek, is just as adamant about playing the last note of a slurred group going into a staccato full value. To me that doesn't explain the clarity inherent in turning that figure around. That is, two tongued notes going into two slurred. By nature of the staccato, you get separation of the two figures. But I love Rusinek anyway.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-07-23 22:08
Andy, I think the answer to your question is that, notated the way your example is, you would certainly separate (articulate, tongue) the A by beginning it with a stroke of your tongue. In other words, the second note of the slur, G, is not connected to the A.
I think it can be more of a question if the A were marked staccato but included in the slur. I don't think there would be much debate with the A outside the slur as your example is.
You wouldn't automatically stop the A with your tongue. With a rest after it, you'd most often stop the air, but it depends on how you want the end of the note to sound. Stopping with your tongue will, as Paul suggests, produce an abrupt hand-clapped-over-your-mouth effect that isn't graceful-sounding if you want to sound graceful.
Karl
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2022-07-24 18:29
I wasn't taught how to properly finish a note until MANY years into my clarinet odyssey.
Paul and Karl: Thanks for your comments. Would you please elaborate on the mechanics or concepts of "how it's done" with air? I'm sure many on the site would appreciate it. (Including me.)
Steve
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-07-24 21:04
I'm really confused. I thought we weren't meant to stop with air. It took me three years to learn not to, as I used to articulate only with my diaphragm. I can tongue now, but I still have to fight the instinct to do diaphragm articulation.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-07-24 21:06
For me, it isn't something I need to think about, so I'm not sure how to explain it mechanically. I just stop blowing while maintaining my embouchure to prevent a drop in pitch and keep the actual timbre consistent to the end of the note. If a longer taper is wanted, I just reduce the air slowly - if al niente, until the sound disappears.
The irony is that most kids, once they learn to start notes with a tongue release instead of a "whooo," end all of their notes this way. It comes without thinking about it. The tongue doesn't go back to the reed until the sound is over (the vibrations have stopped). Teaching them to tongue "on the airstream", with a continuous airstream while only separating the notes with the tongue, annoys them at first because touching a still vibrating reed tickles. But without learning to maintain an airstream while articulating, it's hard to play even moderately quick "tongued" notes and really fast tonguing is impossible.
Karl
Post Edited (2022-07-24 21:38)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2022-07-24 21:37
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I'm really confused. I thought we weren't meant to stop with
> air. It took me three years to learn not to, as I used to
> articulate only with my diaphragm. I can tongue now, but I
> still have to fight the instinct to do diaphragm articulation.
As with so many things, it depends on the context.
You don't as a rule (there are always exceptions) *start* a note with just the air and no tongue release to give it definition. Some players do start a very quietly entering note (like the first note of Weber's Concertino) without a tongued "attack." Some players (the things I've read bring Marcellus to mind, but I never studied with him so I can't attest to how rigid his attitude was) warn *never* to start a note without a tongue release at the beginning.
But ending a note depends on what comes next. Is it part of a series of fairly quick notes? It may create a more linear effect to tongue on a continuing airstream. Is it the end of a phrase? Tapering the air (as time allows) may give it a more lyrical and graceful effect. Is it marked staccato secco? It will be drier-sounding if you stop it with your tongue. Is it an eighth-note passage in a Sousa or comparable march or (Heaven forbid) one of those articulated exhibitions in the Nielsen Concerto? You really can't do that by ending the air between each note.
Rules, to the extent they are taught for convenience, always have exceptions as the musical context requires.
Post Edited (2022-07-24 21:40)
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2022-07-25 01:08
I agree it depends more on what you are trying to achieve than what is written. It doesn't matter so much how you make the sound you want, as long as you make it sound good. Avoid both abruptness and ambiguity.
Keep in mind that staccato means "detached", NOT "short". That should help you decide.
Work on starting and stopping notes very gently with the tongue, and also with breath. Then do the one that works best. The more choices you have the better.
You want to "say" something with your phrasing so that it makes sense to the ear, but it should be appropriate. The phrasing should be clear. Sometimes you may need to listen to a recording of yourself, or ask someone with good musical sense if it sounds right. "Too much" and "not enough" are not always obvious, and it also depends on the performance environment.
- Matthew Simington
Post Edited (2022-07-25 01:09)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-07-25 01:13
I think illustrating the "end of a note" (at the end of a phrase for example) is best illustrated WITHOUT the clarinet. Take a really deep breath and HOLD it, with your mouth open and not stopping with the tongue. What you have there is a completely open airway (from bottom of lungs all the way out) with the "potential energy" of diaphragm and abdominal muscles fully flexed (like a drawn bow of a bow and arrow). Now, execute a series of really short releases of air....it will sound like "huh..huh..huh," and you will really feel the stop in your mid section like a bump.
Those endings or bumps are how you stop a note (at the end of a phrase or in isolation).
I totally agree with Karl on the note beginnings....it depends
In most cases (standard musical context) you want the definition of a tongued beginning to a note. Of course that start is really two actions of the tongue done in quick succession. The first is to place (NOT HIT) the tip of the tongue upon the reed. This prevents the reed from vibrating as you introduce the air column. The second action of the tongue is the release of the tip of the reed. This allows a sudden burst of vibrations which is what gives you the initial transient (like the plucking of a violin or guitar string).
As for the "air attack," we hear this ALL THE TIME when singers sing a word that begins with a vowel. We shouldn't look for reasons to limit our sonic vocabulary.
I recall a Karl Leister masterclass where he wanted students to begin a certain loud note in Brahm's first Sonata with just the air (meas. 25 for those of you scoring at home). The standard training we get here made it all but impossible for those US students to execute; Leister kept repeating, "no tongue, no tongue." And I think the example many of us would agree with, is the end of the second mvt. of Beethoven's Sixth Symphony. The two note descending figure that is the "cuckoo," needs to sound like "WHO-who," and not "TU-tu."
................Paul Aviles
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