 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-06-23 01:04
Ryan Pereira, known for his work with 3D printed barrels, bells, and ligatures, has announced that he is taking pre-orders for a new 3D printed Blackwood clarinet in Bb, which will be available for delivery soon.
https://www.pereira3d.com/store.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2022-06-23 02:02
Hi All,
I knew it was only a matter of time before someone came out with a 3D clarinet and I'm not surprised that it's Ryan. He is eminently qualified for this task.
My preferred ligature on alto sax and bass clarinet is Pereira. Several of my stand mates on both instruments tried mine and immediately ordered their own ligatures.
HRL
PS I receive no compensation of any kind for Ryan Pereira. I am just a very satisfied customer.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-06-23 02:10
Besides this being impervious to cracking, the 3D printing process has the potential to offer the most sophisticated acoustics at a fraction of the hand tooled prices (which is a result of time and experience of the artisans that produce the best clarinets). What would have to happen, of course, would be similar to the story Brad Behn tells of his process taking a virtually priceless mouthpiece and.......destroying it. Once the most precise measurements of the BEST clarinet(s) are harvested, it's just a matter of putting those numbers into a 3D printer.
Now I don't know what exactly is happening with THIS clarinet, and this process is just in its infancy, but it is wonderful to see the beginnings of what will clearly be the future.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2022-06-23 02:40
Here's a very brief video of the new clarinet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDdipe-7CX0
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-06-23 04:06
Same video that appears in the original post. Second time that's happened recently. Some of us might think you guys aren't actually reading the posts (of course I confused B natural with Bb..........but not for lack of reading, just paying attention to detail).
:-)
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: vintschevski
Date: 2022-06-23 04:12
Well, that's puzzling, because I can't see any link to any video in the original post, just a link to the Pereira website, on which I couldn't find a video of the new clarinet.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2022-06-23 05:25
In the original post's link, there are little photos below a large photo of the 3D clarinet. Click the 4th photo and you get the short audio.
Ryan improves products remarkably as time goes by. His barrels, for example, have come a long way and the Philadelphia one is quite good. His clarinet overhauls and repads are excellent. It will be interesting to follow the development of what just might be the only production model 3D clarinet on the market. Does anyone know of others?
Post Edited (2022-06-23 05:28)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2022-06-23 08:30
What is the actual material? I imagine it is some type of plastic with blackwood chips in it? Like fiberglass. Or not?
If that's what it is, would be interesting to know how it differs from the same material without the wood chips (e.g. would it be much weaker, change more from weather, etc.)?
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-23 10:57
I just looked and it seems to be possible to buy blackwood 3D printer filament on amazon. I'm really surprised by that.
https://www.amazon.com/AMOLEN-Filament-Bundle-Walnut-Printer/dp/B08R1JGHNP/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=wood%2Bfilament&qid=1655967265&sr=8-4&th=1
I wonder if it's FSA approved? It seems like a great thing for the future, but probably also really important to check that it's coming from farmed sources.
This seems again like a way that we could reuse all the old clarinets that are past their usable days. That would be great, wouldn't it?
Post Edited (2022-06-23 11:02)
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2022-06-23 12:46
If you look at the surface of the body of that instrument you can see the rings laid down by the 3D printer. Does the bore have the same texture? Those who own Ryan's barrels might know the answer to that question.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-06-23 14:42
Any idea where the keywork is being manufactured? I don't think I saw any mention of that
Post Edited (2022-06-23 14:43)
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-06-23 17:23
I have one of the 3d barrels for Eb, it is really nice sounding. You can indeed feel/see the texture from the 3d printing process on both the inside and outside of the part. At least for the barrel, the texture does not seem to have a negative affect at all on the tone (wood has texture too). If I recall correctly, some other companies are purposefully texturing the bores of plastic clarinets to modify the sound.
I will be curious to see if the toneholes are drilled/reamed/undercut after the 3D printing to improve the roughness or not. I would think the roundness of the tone holes would be the trickiest part to 3D print since the stacked layers would create micro steps all around the perimeter of the holes.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2022-06-23 20:09
But the beauty of this process is that you BUILD whatever dimensions and shapes you want, there should be no need modify beyond the printing process. Perhaps there are much more expensive printers that make a more refined surface.
………….Paul Aviles
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2022-06-23 23:48
I'm wondering if the tenons may be prone to breaking off. A recent 3D printed mouthpiece I saw had a machined tenon installed (by the maker I think) because this can be a problem.
Steve Ocone
Post Edited (2022-06-24 16:24)
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Author: Pereira3D
Date: 2022-06-24 00:29
Thank you for sharing my info as well as the nice words from many of you. I appreciate it as I’ve devoted years to the development of this project (and improving my line of barrels, bells, etc, in general). I’ll try to touch base on all of the questions that were asked.
The material is extruded in-house with a mix of African Blackwood (or Mahogany for my 3D Mahogany material) particles and a plant-based binding agent that keeps said particles together and allows the filament to melt properly through the printer’s extruder. As far as SunnyDaze’s point goes, it’s just as safe to handle as a standard wooden clarinet. Since 3D woods are hybrid materials, this is why they’re not affected by weather/humidity conditions compared to traditionally-used woods.
Between my 3D woods and 3D filaments that do not have wood particles, weather conditions do not seem to affect one over the other from my tests. The sound is certainly influenced by having wood in the mix, though. It took me quite some time to find the right mix of material, settings, and, most importantly, post-processing techniques to have my products produce results in line with traditional aftermarket accessories. Many have used 3D printing for prototyping and have written off the technology for end-use products, but my time working with the materials and my finishing techniques really made all the difference where I feel that 3D printing can rival other methods of manufacturing if you take the time and learn how to work with these materials. During my prototyping process, I’ve tested carbon fiber, nylons, metal-infused material, various different types of polymers, etc. before arriving at the materials I use currently.
The tone holes and undercutting and initially “printed in” and then reamed afterward. Each and every tone hole on the 3D clarinet is faced very carefully to ensure a perfectly smooth surface that will seal properly as if it weren’t 3D printed. This is obviously one aspect of the design where it’s imperative that you don’t leave layer lines exposed at all. I print in quite dense infills for my products, and I try and take potential breaks at the layer lines into account with the design. The prototypes have held up very well to torture tests, but in the event that a break at a tenon, etc. were to happen to a customer, I offer a warranty for replacement.
Regarding the keywork, I’ve had custom sets made in China. I’ve worked back and forth with a fine source to come to a set of keys that keep the clarinet priced where it is, but also will hold up nicely and remain structurally sound over time. I’m pleased with how they turned out, and I do fit each key by hand when I’m assembling each clarinet. Having an extensive repair background is a must for a project such as this.
Finally, the slightly textured surface finish is indeed done by design. Not only having this texture, but the way it’s textured matters quite a bit. Using these 3D materials, too rough or too smooth can both have a negative impact on sound and/or response. Many will notice the instrument or my products in general are notably lighter in weight, which also has great benefits, but the quality of the surface texture allows me to fine-tune the way it responds and feels. I’ve found that there is added “good” working resistance and depth to the sound.
Ryan Pereira
Pereira 3D Clarinet Services
www.Pereira3D.com
Post Edited (2022-06-24 00:32)
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-06-24 04:15
Are you going to be at Clarinetfest in Reno? If so it would be GREAT to be able to test play this baby...
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Author: Pereira3D
Date: 2022-06-24 06:05
Yes, I'll be exhibiting at ClarinetFest in Reno next week. I actually plan to bring 5 3D clarinets along (1 of which is my first prototype in 3D Mahogany material), so feel free to try!
Ryan Pereira
Pereira 3D Clarinet Services
www.Pereira3D.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2022-06-24 09:34
That's great news, also want to talk with you about mouthpiece blanks...
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-24 12:05
Hi Ryan,
Thanks so much for all of your explanation. I also do a little bit of 3D printing here and I know it's really really hard to get designs and printing just right, so I have some idea of the massive amount of time and effort that you must have put into this. I think it's absolutely amazing work and so well done. It's really impressive.
Would it be okay to ask if the blackwood particles in your filament are from a Forest Stewardship Council (FSC) approved wood source? That means that the wood is coming from farmed trees rather then wild ones.
I know that might be a hard thing to find out and to arrange, but I think it is something that will be a huge selling point for your instruments if you can manage it at some point. It would give you really epic environmental credentials.
Also I wondered if someone is helping you with the legal side of getting your designs and processes patented? In the University where I volunteer we have an office that exists just to help the scientists turn their ideas into successful business ventures and that involves a lot of legal stuff. If you're not already getting help with that, a local university might be able to help you. I only worry because people might see what you have done and start producing knock-off versions on their own 3D printers.
Well done on the fantastic work. It is properly amazing stuff that you're doing.
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: Pereira3D
Date: 2022-06-25 07:36
I appreciate it, Jennifer. Admittedly, I don't have that much depth of information from where I source the wood particles, but it's certainly something I'll look into. In addition, I'm trying to experiment with alternate woods and materials in general to find other suitable options that aren't as limited of a resource. I've had some success with uncommon filaments, such as glass-infused polymers (which I'll also have a few examples of at ClarinetFest). Thanks again for the kind words and for your suggestion for the legal side of things. I do have things in place for those matters, but you're right that many others have started printing their own products. However, much of what's unique about my stuff involves the material and what I do after the print process, and, thankfully, that's not as simple to copy!
Ryan Pereira
Pereira 3D Clarinet Services
www.Pereira3D.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-25 16:13
Hi Ryan,
Thanks so much for the reply. It sounds as though you have a really wonderful setup there and I will look forward very much to seeing where you go with it all.
The business of trying new filaments is one that really impresses me so much. Our local hospital has a department that builds parts to be used as surgical implants for people, and they print in some really amazing materials.
I've been wondering whether it would be possible to make new clarinets from the powdered wood of old defunct instruments. Maybe one day we will be able to send you our broken vintage instruments so you could use them to have new filament made. That would be so great.
Anyway good luck with it all!
Best wishes,
Jennifer
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2022-06-25 17:31
It looks like the filaments contain 20% wood. So there seems like plenty of room to try other fillers without affecting the material a lot.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-25 18:43
Hi Ryan,
I've been thinking for a long time that it would be good to get old broken clarinets being recycled into new ones.
I wondered - if I could find a way to get my vintage clarinet turned into 3D printer filament of the right kind, and pay for your work, would you be willing to print it into a new clarinet, so we could write an article on it for the ICA magazine or something like that?
I think it would be a compelling way to highlight for people the importance of not sourcing granadilla wood from unfarmed tropical rainforests.
I've written to a couple of companies to ask if they would turn my clarinet into filament, but I'm not sure what kind you use, or whether you would be willing to tell me. I know from my own experience that getting the right filament matters a lot, so maybe this would be too complicated a thing to do right now? I'd be glad to know what you think.
Thanks!
Jennifer
Post Edited (2022-06-25 20:19)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2022-06-26 02:53
I would imagine that it would be necessary to find a way to grind up the wood info a form that would be usable. Your idea could be a valuable way to "recycle" grenadilla parts that are no longer able to function as instruments, due to damage or other factors.
I don't know what the exact process is in Buffet's manufacture of the Greenline clarinets or what percentage of wood it includes. When they came out with those, it was my understanding that part of it was to find a way to use the sawdust waste that occurred in boring, lathing and creating their instruments. While I don't know how they actually create the greenline compound, in theory it would seem that some type of reclaimed wood program could be created.
Post Edited (2022-06-26 14:35)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-26 09:33
Hi Ed,
Yes, it was initially the greenline clarinets that I was thinking off, but I never could work out how to be involved in changing the source of wood on that. I see that kinds of wood 3d filament are 35% wood though, so that's a fair old chunk of wood that is needed to make them.
I can't find any evidence that any of the grenadilla fillements is made from FSC approved wood. I have written to a bunch of companies and will post answers on the thread if I get any good information.
Jen
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2022-06-26 16:28
Just once slight correction. Grenadilla (African Blackwood) is not from a rainforest.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Pereira3D
Date: 2022-06-26 19:14
Hi Jennifer, it’s definitely a complicated process to turn an existing instrument into filament, but it’s certainly possible. With my current schedule, it’s difficult to take on something like this, but feel free to reach out to my email and we can discuss it further. As for percentage of wood particles, the wood filaments on the market have a wide range regarding percentage of wood particles in the mix. My material’s wood particle composition is around 40%, and I felt it made a fairly substantial difference compared to some of the readily available filaments on the market. Of course, there’s a long R&D process to get something to print reliably with a higher mix of an external material, but it’s worth the effort for this application.
Ryan Pereira
Pereira 3D Clarinet Services
www.Pereira3D.com
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Author: Hunter_100
Date: 2022-06-26 19:31
I think a small custom maker that already has the equipment to machine wood blanks into finished bodies would have an easier time making a recycled/upcycled instrument. I think it would be easier to blend the wood dust with epoxy and cast cylindrical blanks that could then be processed the same as the wood ones. Although, maybe Buffet's green line patent would preclude this. I never read it, I'm not sure what they actually claim in it as their propriety tech.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2022-06-27 17:02
Hi Steve,
Thanks for commenting. I'm a bit confused about that. I thought I understood from the COP26 thread that Grenadilla was a rainforest tree:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=494966&t=494966
I think I picked it up from the second post by Late_returner
Date: 2021-11-02 14:58
Did I misunderstand that? Maybe it is just from regular forests in Africa, and the FSC regulations are trying to encourage more sustainable management?
Thanks for pointing that misunderstanding out. It sounds as though I had got the wrong end of the stick.
Hunter_100 yes I see what you mean about getting the wood put in resin. That does sound good too.
Jen
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2023-04-17 20:34
Hey All, I hope you will forgive the resurrection of this thread! I had the opportunity to go visit Ryan at his workshop last fall and to try out some of his new 3D Printed instruments. Ryan was also kind enough to sit down for an interview while I was there. I’ve made a video showcasing the journey Ryan went on to build these instruments, in addition to play testing them and including some of my own general thoughts about how the instruments perform. I didn’t have time to talk about everything related to my experience in this video, so if you have any additional questions for me, please don’t hesitate to ask!
https://youtu.be/qTL59-cs6JE
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Author: Pokenerd
Date: 2023-04-18 04:43
Just saw the video this morning. Was the sound significantly different than clarinets made from traditional materials in person as well? From the video they sounded pretty different at least for me
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Author: Maestro_6
Date: 2023-04-18 06:40
I'll let Eric answer based on his experience, but living about an hour from Ryan's shop, I tried a couple of clarinets in the late winter while picking a barrel for my R13s. I found them very comparable to the sound of my Buffets but with a bit more cover with the 3D blackwood feeling closest to home. The feel was slightly different, probably due to the differences in the bore, but would easily adjust to it over a couple of weeks.
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Author: ghoulcaster
Date: 2023-04-18 11:38
I wonder how flexible the Chinese clarinet key making company was.
It would be cool to have basic innovations like in-line trill keys or the left-hand Eb/Ab, or even have things like a D/G vent.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-04-18 14:17
I'm not sure to what Pokenerd refers when speaking of comparison. There is NO comparison amongst other clarinets made in the video. If Eric had played his Tosca and then the two versions of the printed clarinet one after the other, you could make some assessment of sound differential within the context of the video's sound (obvious addition of reverb to the recorded sound). However since we only have the Pereira played on the video, a true comparison with anything else is not possible.
That said, the sound I heard from this video was quite impressive. I actually agree with the final statement Eric made, this is a creature on to itself and a huge leap of innovation. We had the question recently about polycylindrical bores. Well, with 3D printing you could do ANYTHING to the bore, things that could never be accomplished with the tooling of wood as we know it. So a "copy" of an existing clarinet (the Selmer Signature in this case) may ultimately not be where this technology ends up and nor should it be.
Our acceptance of this type of clarinet along with how it is marketed will ultimately determine its future success. I personally think this is only the beginning and there will be many more companies to follow with many more innovations to the internal structure of tone holes, "undercutting," and bores.
Thank you Ryan Pereira! You've opened the door to a brave new world.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2023-04-18 17:18
Quote:
Just saw the video this morning. Was the sound significantly different than clarinets made from traditional materials in person as well? From the video they sounded pretty different at least for me
Hey Pokenerd, I found that the instruments definitely had their own distinct sound concept, but I wouldn't say that they were outside the realm of normalcy compared to clarinets made from traditional materials. I like Maestro_6's description, they are instruments designed to have a nice amount of cover and the Blackwood definitely feels closest to home. I think the difference in sound between the Blackwood and Mahogany was even more striking in person (and I thought it was pretty striking in the recording.) I was really excited to discover that the 3D Mahogany material could produce such a different result. While it may not be an instrument that you would want to use in every situation, having that option for an instrument with a sound quality that naturally leans towards being slightly more diffuse, softer and warmer in general is really cool at that price point.
Quote:
If Eric had played his Tosca and then the two versions of the printed clarinet one after the other, you could make some assessment of sound differential within the context of the video's sound (obvious addition of reverb to the recorded sound). However since we only have the Pereira played on the video, a true comparison with anything else is not possible.
Sorry about this Paul. I've gone back and forth on this a bit, but I've mostly settled on trying to avoid doing direct playing comparisons when doing reviews of individual products. On one hand the inclusion of a comparison to my standard (mouthpiece, instrument, etc.) equipment is definitely helpful for the audience, as it gives added context to the product I'm trying. However, it's essentially a comparison that will always be skewed towards whatever I am most comfortable with. I've noticed this when watching other reviewers try new products as well. For the most part, people sound better on the equipment that they have put the most time on. And in some of those cases, perhaps what they put the most time on actually is a better product, however I'm just not sure it's fair to directly compare a product I have spent a dozen or so hours with, to something I have spent 1000's of hours playing on. As a result I try to go into each review with an open mind and judge the product on its own merits. Hopefully the videos are still helpful for getting an idea of what something sounds like and in some of my more detailed reviews, plays like.
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So a "copy" of an existing clarinet (the Selmer Signature in this case) may ultimately not be where this technology ends up and nor should it be.
I just wanted to quickly clear this up in case I caused a misconception with my video. From what I understand, the instrument is closer to a cross between an R-13 and Selmer Signature from a design standpoint. Ryan liked certain aspects and elements of both instruments (and the Yamaha CSG in the case of the 3rd Finger LH Raised Chimney) and wanted to make something that met in the middle; he wasn't attempting to produce a copy of either instrument.
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Author: EricBlack
Date: 2023-04-18 17:29
Quote:
I wonder how flexible the Chinese clarinet key making company was.
It would be cool to have basic innovations like in-line trill keys or the left-hand Eb/Ab, or even have things like a D/G vent.
Sorry ghoulcaster, I missed this one. From our conversation, sourcing the keywork seemed like a really big hurdle to overcome and I believe at that point Ryan was just looking for a standard set of keys that were consistent in their tolerances and production. I wonder if the factory could be more flexible in the future as well, as I agree, future additions/innovations to the keywork would be cool to see!
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