 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: McDonalds Eater
Date: 2021-12-24 23:07
Happy Holidays to everyone!
So I have been working on my tone production. As we all know, a key component of fine clarinet playing, at least in the French American school of playing, is the high tongue position: a concept in which the player positions the tongue as if saying “EEE” or imitating a hiss. This is said to focus the sound and make the air go quicker.
However, for some strange reason, even though my tongue is in this position while I play, my tone still spreads. I don’t hear a difference in my sound until I put the tongue too high and therefore choke the sound. Then my ear hears this and I subconsciously start biting :(
I’ve experimented with different syllables and positions: “EEE,” cat hiss, saying “SHH,” putting my tongue high in the front, middle, or back, and I still don’t hear a difference unless again I go too far and close the sound. I can even feel my tongue touching my upper molars while playing, and the sound still spreads.
There must be something I’m doing wrong, and I can’t figure out why :(
Any ideas and discussions are appreciated.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2021-12-24 23:30
What is the mouthpiece? Some are easier to focus than others.
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Author: McDonalds Eater
Date: 2021-12-24 23:45
I currently play an M13 Lyre with 3.5+ Vandoren 56 reeds.
Interestingly enough, even though this one is a bit easier to focus, it has happened with every other mouthpiece I’ve owned, so I think it definitely has to do with me haha
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-12-25 01:13
McDonalds Eater wrote:
> ...As we all know, a
> key component of fine clarinet playing, at least in the French
> American school of playing, is the high tongue position: a
> concept in which the player positions the tongue as if saying
> “EEE” or imitating a hiss. This is said to focus the sound
> and make the air go quicker.
It's a funny thing. I studied through my teens and early 20s with clarinetists all of whom would be considered to have been in the French tradition via Curtis Institute and Daniel Bonade. I never heard from any of them a suggestion that I should raise my tongue or try to produce and EEE syllable. Instead, I always heard about keeping my throat open.
I have read somewhere, maybe in Bonade's Compendium, that Bonade himself talked about forming a French "u" (or a German u with an umlaut) - lips formed in "ooo" and tongue in "eee," so maybe my teachers all missed the lesson where he taught it. But it doesn't seem to have been a central part of the tradition back then.
I'm not going to say that forming "eee" doesn't change the sound from an "ooo" or "aaah" tongue position. But it isn't the only way to focus the tone, and if other things aren't working efficiently, it won't provide focus by itself.
Rather than trying to hold a specific tongue or "throat" position, you might have better success thinking of relaxing the inside of your mouth, including your tongue, to avoid any rigidity. The trouble with any syllable is that if you try too hard to form it and tense the soft tissue inside your mouth, you will generally inhibit resonance.
One other thing to consider is that your reed needs to be not just the right strength but carefully balanced. An unbalanced reed can cause you to tighten too much. 3.5+ Rue lepics should work on an M13L facing, but not every one. And you may find Series 13 mouthpieces in general to be a little more diffuse that some other mouthpieces, even non-S13 Vandorens.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-12-25 02:40
As I see it, the tongue should be lightly tensioned throughout its length to promote vibrations of the air column alongside it. That tension can be promoted by lengthening or stretching out the tongue a bit, which tends (or needs) to arch the upper sections of it.
When I make the mistake of spreading the tone, it seems to be about my embouchure or jaw muscles loosening up & mispositioning rather than my tongue position. That loosening again loses the tension of muscles that should be vibrating and promoting vibrations.
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Author: McDonalds Eater
Date: 2021-12-25 03:26
Hmm, Philip, I’m glad you bring you bring up the embouchure. Maybe that could also be contributing.
I used to be a heavy biter and it was getting irritating so I got rid of the habit. Perhaps have I gone too far the other way? I pretty much don’t put any pressure on the reed with my bottom lip; I kind of just let the reed rest there. Should I apply the slightest little bit of pressure to control the sound but not to the point of biting? Or maybe should I put more upper force with right thumb?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-25 05:15
I've gone through so many different ways of looking at this I don't know if I can contribute in a meaningful way.
However
There was a topic posted in the last few months something like "What videos do you want to see more of on YouTube?" In there, someone posted about a clarinet pedagog whose name escapes me but I landed on a video of his where he speaks about achieving the correct air pressure. What he said and how he said it really hit the nail on the head, so if ANY of you can point to that thread and that teacher/player I would be most grateful. His words on this topic are spot on and what we need right here.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-25 12:43
Was it this thread?
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=266668&t=266544
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-25 13:51
Thanks for the suggestion SunnyDaze, but I actually found it by looking up my answer on that one which was a suggestion to do more videos like the Kohan Scales for Clarinet (I like 'em). That thread was called "What's Missing?"
and here is the video that will solve McDonalds Eater's problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYBzMOm7EJQ
If you guys do nothing else this Christmas, take the seven and a half minutes to watch this whole video.......it is the MOST valuable bit of advice!
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-25 16:49
Crikey. That's a whole other thing that I didn't know I was meant to think about.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-25 17:37
I just tried the exercises that he describes and they work for me with my double lip embouchure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqKn7mSE1CY
Does that mean that I don't need to do complicated things with my tongue? I don't think I could do the tongue thing.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-26 04:09
Yeah, I believe it is ALL air pressure and the balancing of that with just enough embouchure pressure (as he spoke of that trade off). The mouth is a closed system, so quite frankly it doesn’t much matter what happens with the tongue.
………………Paul Aviles
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2021-12-26 04:20
"The mouth is a closed system"
Paul: please explain what that means? And how that proves that it doesn't matter what happens with the tongue?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-12-26 05:30
Paul Aviles wrote:
> The mouth is a closed system, so quite frankly it
> doesn’t much matter what happens with the tongue.
>
This description sounds a little over-simplistic and defies experiential evidence. I've already dismissed the importance of any specific syllable formation to produce a focused clarinet tone. But I can very easily alter the tone I produce by moving my tongue flatter, more arched, closer to the reed, farther from the reed, etc. There's not much question from my experience that tongue position has an effect. It just isn't necessarily the one the OP is trying to produce.
Karl
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2021-12-26 08:21
Paul - With the palm of your hand an inch from your mouth, exhale onto your hand with a low tongue. One hears the sound "Haaaa". The air exits the mouth slowly, as though one is fogging up a mirror.
With your hand the same distance from your mouth, exhale again, this time with your tongue almost as high as you can place it in your mouth (eg. your tongue should touch your upper back teeth). One will hear the sound "Heee" and notice that the air is coming out of the mouth much more quickly *with no increase of effort, diaphragm pressure, etc*.
By raising the position of the tongue in the mouth, air pressure increases (if you accept the OED's definition of pressure).
With students who have a problem focusing their sound, raising the tongue never fails to make an initial improvement. With a higher tongue, air exits the mouth more quickly than with a lower tongue. The result is that the reed vibrates more quickly.
Simon
Post Edited (2021-12-26 08:58)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-26 11:23
If I do that, the "haaa" sounds makes the palm of my hand get warm like a fogged up mirror, but if I do the "hee" sound, my hand doesn't, as if there is no air coming out at all.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-26 15:43
Great way to illustrate this Simon! This is what convinced me all those years ago about "cold air" as spoken about by the Robert Marcellus. Of course Tony Pay jumped all over that and it is obvious why if you do the experiment a bit differently. As you succinctly put it, the air speed changes as you change your tongue position. BUT, set yourself to a "YAWWW" tongue position and then try to achieve the cold fast air upon your hand........EASY. And so is the converse. What you experience in the original experiment is CHANGE, and not that one cannot easily do either air speed ('hot' and 'cold') with either (or ANY for that matter) tongue position. I choose to change air speed at the gut........just easier for me.
Further, if one is careful to ensure that there is NO CHANGE of lip pressure or configuration and NO CHANGE of jaw pressure whatsoever, you can move your tongue about your mouth all day long with virtually no affect on the sound of any note whatsoever.
We all just have such a strong connection of the tongue to everything else due to speech from infancy that it is really really hard to separate these things from one another.
So much for voicing
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-12-26 21:00
McDonalds Eater,
Some mouthpieces do naturally tend to focus the tone more than others. You noticed an improvement when you switched to the Vandoren M13 lyre. The regular M13 tends to produce an even tighter focus. You might try out a few of those and pick the one with the greatest concentration of tone. Some other mouthpieces that usually improve focus are the Vandoren BD4 if you have its facing closed to near 1.00 mm by a good mouthpiece tech and the Custom Rubber Yamaha 4C (not the cheap plastic one).
Tony Pay said some useful things about how concept, imagery, and metaphor can be effective in producing audible changes in the way a clarinetist plays. Telling players to make direct changes in tongue position, air speed, and lip position may not be as practical as just giving them a metaphor or image to concentrate on. For instance, if you blow into the clarinet "as if you were blowing into a narrow straw," your lips, tongue, and diaphragm may just snap into place and do the right thing to concentrate the sound. No need to be consciously bossing each anatomical part into place! Our bodies are smarter in some ways than our brains are and can do wonderous feats of timing and coordination if we use metaphorical imagery to trigger the response. Some players have used such imagistic metaphors as "a rounded pear with a glowing lantern inside" or a "hard, glossy diamond wrapped in a cover of black velvet" as a conscious tonal ideal, and eventually all the anatomical details are taken care of by the body's coordination system (which is subject to influence from the conscious will but not separately controllable in all its myriad details) to produce the desired effect.
If you can visualize the sound you want (as well as internally hearing it), your body should eventually guide you to see how you can at least approximate that sound. Your tongue will find the sweet spot, and the force and feel of the lips and jaw and teeth under them will assume the position necessary to achieve the desired goal. When you try different mouthpieces, reeds, and ligatures, your coordinated body will accept the ones that get you closer to the goal and reject those that don't. All this takes time and patience.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-12-26 21:13
Hi Seabreeze. Very well said. Over time I've moved more toward wanting to be aware of what specific muscles do what, but when it comes to explaining a complex coordination, metaphors can be a great help.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-26 21:29
Hi Seabreeze - that makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for explaining.
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2021-12-27 07:19
There has been a lot of research on how woodwind players adjust their mouths and throats to make particular notes sound correctly. I'm no expert on this, but the main conclusion seems to be that the frequency at which the air in the vocal tract (i.e., mouth + throat) resonates needs to be close to the frequency at which the air in the instrument bore resonates. That is, the reed is exciting vibrations in two different instruments at once. If there is a mismatch, interference will result, whereas a good match will enhance the sound. The most extreme example of an instrument exhibiting this effect is the didjeridu, and there is an extensive discussion of how it works on the excellent woodwind acoustics website run by Joe Wolfe and his colleagues in Australia:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/didjeridu.html
The same website extends these observations to saxophones and clarinets:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/SaxTract.html
Among many additional studies, there is the interesting observation by Lulich and Charles that professional clarinetists actually LOWER the tongue instead of raising it for altissimo notes. According to this paper (I can't post the whole thing because it's not open access, but here is the abstract):
https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.4978059
some players think they are voicing "ee", and some do not, but they are all actually moving the tongue down while keeping an "open throat."
What I get out of all this is the following:
1. It is not the speed of the player's air that matters. Rather it is whether the shape of the vocal tract causes it to resonate similarly to the frequency of the particular note being played.
2. Players often have trouble describing what their vocal tracts are doing, so in the end mental imagery as Seabreeze described is the best way forward.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-27 09:59
Hi kehammel ,
That also makes a huge amount of sense to me. Thanks for posting it.
Jen
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-12-27 12:59
If you BURP while playing the sound drops down an octave. Gross, but something to think about (in relation to the above post).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-27 16:57
Gas from your digestive tract is sulfuric and thus heavier than air........ a drop in pitch (the reverse of ingesting helium to sound funny......lighter gas allows the vocal cords to vibrate faster).
I doubt that metaphors will change any of that
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-12-27 19:12
Hi kehammel. It's nice to read research that supports my own half-baked notions.
The idea of "fast air" has so far resisted my understanding. I suspect it's to deliver more energy to internal resonances. However, I do arch the tongue for altissimo and other registers, to help tension it along its entire length, and so to enhance all internal vibration lengths.
During play your throat and other parts of your anatomy vibrate. Light tensioning of the tongue, embouchure, and body all should be set to support any frequency. (Which is one reason to sit up straight while playing. For example, it makes low E, the longest air column, sound better than when you're slouched.)
In a significant way, you vibrate. You are your sound. Singers tend to be aware of this.
Salt well - I'm no scientist, and I'm a clarinetist mostly in my own mind.
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2021-12-27 22:21
Hi Philip. I agree with you. I need to feel my tongue, mouth, and throat as being "activated" when I want a particular note to speak correctly. Not tense, just activated. Whether my tongue is up or down is something I don't really have a clear picture of yet.
As for "fast air," it's a confusing, ill-defined notion. Conceivably, delivering the same amount of air through a narrower vs. a wider pipe (tongue raised vs. not raised) could cause the reed to vibrate in a way that favors high notes, but acoustics researchers don't mention this. They focus instead on how important it is to match the resonance frequencies between the instrument and the vocal tract.
Paul referred to supporting sound from the gut. I studied singing for many years, and actually wasn't that good at it, but I did learn to produce my sound using correct "appoggio," which means using the abdominal muscles in a balanced way to deliver air at a well controlled rate. Doing this does feel like supporting from the gut, but the reason it's beneficial in both singing and woodwind playing is that a steady tone is produced and volume can be controlled. Matching the resonances in the instrument with those in one's vocal tract is a different issue that cannot have much to do with the volume of air being delivered. After all, this kind of "voicing" needs to work at all air volumes, from pianissimo to forte.
I will agree with Paul, though, that correct abdominal support FEELS like it's part of correct voicing. That is, doing the right thing in one part of the body can trigger muscle memory in another part, so that they all work together. This gets back to Seabreeze's excellent point, namely that we don't have precise control over each body part that's involved, so mental imagery is our best resource.
Regards,
Ken
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2021-12-28 06:37
This topic keeps returning.
Here is a clip Raymond Wheeler did in the 70's that changed some of the perceptions of many clarinet players and teachers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id5O3Tk5YV8
The tongue, isn't stable, it moves (the back of the tongue, especially) according to the pitch of the note required. Note that surprisingly, the higher notes have a low position for the back of the tongue.
Here is a response to a similar post given a few years ago:
It seems to me there are two distinct parts to a workable tongue position:
1. The placement of the tongue on the reed.
2. The shape the back of the tongue makes in order to optimize tone and intonation.
Tom (said):
"I do find I really have to concentrate on keeping oral cavity the same and stay really sensitive to the pressure, because if I don't that sound change will change and very noticeably. It won't be a bad sound, it might be a color that I could find useful for some piece of music."
You might be interested in looking at some of the recent research regarding the oral cavity. Specifically "Oral tract fluctuations in clarinet and saxophone performance: an acoustical analysis/by Peter G.Clinch" Monash University libruary www.lib.monash.edu.au
Peter was a former teacher of mine. An inspirational Saxophone player. His research (and other research) led him to notice the large amount of movement with the back of the tongue and within the oral cavity. He felt that each note had an optimum position.
Michael Webster in the Clarinet has listed a number of studies that describe tha pattern of this movement.
In the Clarinet Vollume 30 Number4 He lists a study by Raymond Wheeler he goes on to suumerise some of Wheelers findings.
These included:
"1. During performance...the throat opening near the uvela is quite narrow for the low register tones. The upper rear portion of the tongue is in a high position. as the scale ascends into the clarion and altissimo registers the upper rear portion of the the tongue moves gradually downward and forward....
5. There is only one positon the tongue can assume while sustaining a given tone and that must not be changed, although some teacher-performers profess that tone quality may be improved by adjusting the tongue's vowel or syalble shape for any tone....."
Michel Webster goes on to list as study by Dr,Richard Stasey, "a prominent Houston otolaryngologist" (not sure about the last term but my goodness it sounds impressive).
He finds that
"1. There is more throat activity in clarinetists than in other woodwind players..."
I hope you find this of interest. I found some of the ides in conflict to what I felt I was doing, after reading some books on brain function I have adopt the attitude of the Lion in Madagascar (sorry-two young children here) ie"never trust your instincts"
Here is the Wheeler article, posted by Tony Pay some years ago;
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2005/05/000454.txt
[ Link provided - GBK ]
It's a fascinating article. The interesting thing to me is the fact that what we think we are doing is often quite different than what science tells us is actually happening.
Chris Ondaatje.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-28 16:28
Thanks for posting the video. I was just thinking about this one. If you notice, the point at which the teeth supports the reed is ALL OVER THE PLACE (and we cannot see the actions of the lips). And yet we are told only to look at the tongue position. So what is really going on?
Bad science.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2021-12-29 03:50
With all due respect to Paul, it looks like we have very different ideas about what is going on.
I don't think this actually matters though, the issue is how this your ideas can affect your playing.
For my own part, I've found that lowering the back of the tongue assists when doing harmonics. Without moving the lips, and with a little practice, it's possible to get four or more harmonics when playing the fingering of our lowest C. The idea is that each harmonic is close to the ideal voicing for that actual pitch.
Perhaps this helps.
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2021-12-29 04:34
Phurster's post was great. It sent me to Tony Pay's post about Raymond Wheeler's research, and I just had to laugh. Here we are, discussing all this stuff, and I'm posting links to recent research that points to a lower tongue position for high notes, and this was all basically known in 1973!
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-12-29 05:34
Yes it's true that the tongue moves slightly for each tone, however a tried and tested method of improving players tone is to concentrate on keeping things still and uniform between tones (and thus achieve a genuine legato between notes). This has been proven for several hundred years to work!
Why might this be?
The changes are very very slight. Most students will exaggerate them if asked to do it deliberately. The changes in tongue position have to be, and/or become, instinctive - so it's better to learn these subtle adjustments through DOING rather than intentionally try to change tongue position for each note.
For this reason, the vast majority of students will benefit greatly from legato exercises such as those in Klose Bk1, or by Leon Russianoff, or by Daniel Bonade.
Those encouraged to waggle their mouth around for every note seldom rise to the top.
Develop instinct. This requires you to listen and have a connection between what you hear and what you feel inside your mouth. That's all.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-12-29 11:39
The Raymond Wheeler video is great. There are all sorts of parts of his anatomy moving to make those sounds, that I didn't know I even had.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2021-12-30 11:59
Donald said;
"Yes it's true that the tongue moves slightly for each tone, however a tried and tested method of improving players tone is to concentrate on keeping things still and uniform between tones (and thus achieve a genuine legato between notes). This has been proven for several hundred years to work!
Why might this be?
The changes are very very slight."
To many expert players, this is exactly how it feels. The issue is one of how the brain processes information. The tongung is moving quite a lot, as can be obseved on the videos, however this feels so effortless (at least to an expert) that they are unaware of this movement.
An example of this occuring would be if you notice students, in say their second year of playing, stuggling to reach a C above the stave. It's inevitably flat when they get the note. Once the student works out how to position the back of the tongue (they many not be aware of exactly what they are doing!), it becomes easy. After a few months many can't even remember having a problem getting the note.
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Author: donald
Date: 2021-12-30 12:48
No the tongue is NOT moving a lot for adjecent notes- these movements are really around 1mm if playing a mojor scale. Ask someone to move their tongue deliberately and they move it 1cm,10 times too far.
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Author: kehammel
Date: 2021-12-30 19:31
I've gone back and looked at the data published on four professional clarinet players by Lulich et al. Here's the link to the abstract again:
https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.4978059
If you can find a way to look at the entire paper, you will see that tongue position moved by at least a centimeter (especially in the middle of the tongue) in all of the players studied.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2021-12-31 00:52
Thanks for your link Tony.
I thought your quote: "Instability
implies the possibility of precise control, stability implies the lack
of it." was brilliant.
Donald said:
"No the tongue is NOT moving a lot for adjecent notes- these movements are really around 1mm if playing a mojor scale. Ask someone to move their tongue deliberately and they move it 1cm,10 times too far."
I don't think I'm disagreeing with you. Perhaps I expressed it clumsily. With adjecent notes the movement would be less, with a minor correction around the accoustic breaks.
Kehammel, that link is amazing. Thanks.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-12-31 01:29
Haven't we travelled from the original poster's question of how tongue position might affect tonal "focus" to an ultrasound consideration of how tongue position and other factors vary in relation to "portmenteau and pitch blending"?
The legato connection or sound blends between notes and the fine tuning of pitch are not at all the same as the timbre characteristics clarinetists refer as "focus and concentration" vs. "spreading and diffuseness" of tone. A perfectly in tune note can have many different timbral characteristics. It could be beautifully centered, or lush and velvety, or blunt and wide as a foghorn, or shrill and shallow as a kazoo. A gorgeous sonority can be horribly out of tune. It would be wonderful if players with great tones always played in tune and players with excellent intonation had pleasing tone quality--but "it ain't necessarily so." Alas, you can easily have one without the other.
Post Edited (2021-12-31 06:47)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-31 05:29
I disagree. Most of this covers the production of a good sound. Just a lot of info.
……………..Paul Aviles
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Author: lmliberson
Date: 2021-12-31 16:54
A "good" sound?
What constitutes a "good" sound is highly subjective.
To quote a very famous, unnamed band director of the past, "You must be able to discriminate between your sound and a good one."
And with that, Happy New Year!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-12-31 18:31
"Good" within this context is "better" than what the original poster is experiencing, and why he sought advice in the first place.
I still strongly suggest that the seven and a half minute video (much like the single lesson with Montanaro referenced in the video) could represent an immediate improvement for those who have tone issues (despite or because of vast embouchure work) if they just take it to heart.
........and...........Happy New Year!
...........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2022-01-01 07:56
I have had success with focusing and raising the pitch in the lowest notes by widening the corners of the embouchure.
Freelance woodwind performer
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