 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-09-06 05:42
https://www.silversteinworks.com/omniguard/
...still not giving up and making the transition to double lip embouchure...
I've tried most of the things I can find to protect my top lip gums--from parchment paper (Ridenour) to floral tape (Stoltzman) and saw this...
maybe I just need to get a mouth guard from a sports store.....
Thoughts???
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-09-06 08:32
Hi SecondTry,
What is it that is causing the pain? I just grip the mp with my lips and lift my top teeth off the top of the mp and that works for me. There is no pain.
Jen
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2021-09-06 09:53
Try to get "parafilm"
https://www.amazon.com/Parafilm-Roll-250-Length-Width/dp/B005KDF3X6
That is a material you can make those things yourself. It molds to the shape of your teeth by the temperature in your mouth. It's food grade, cheap. From that roll you have the material for the rest of your life plus give/sell to your friends too
Actually i suspect that omniguard is made from the same material...
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
Post Edited (2021-09-06 09:55)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-09-06 19:31
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Hi SecondTry,
>
> What is it that is causing the pain? I just grip the mp with my
> lips and lift my top teeth off the top of the mp and that works
> for me. There is no pain.
>
> Jen
Hi Jen:
For me, like with single lip embouchure, the front teeth contact the inner side of the top lips in addition of course to the bottom lips as is the case for either single or double lip embouchure.
From years of play this does not hurt my bottom inner lip but it does my top inner lip because the top front teeth coming in contact with my tip inner gums---rather than the mouthpiece--is new.
This pain is not to be confused with muscle fatigue--which I also get--from playing durations with double lip embouchure, and I believe that time will alleviate as I develop muscle strength. I get no such fatigue (or pain) playing the single lip embouchure I've played for years.
The pain I experience is not immediate. It comes after about a minute of play and is exacerbated by taking the bell of the clarinet off my knee. Perhaps I am trying to making advancement with this new embouchure too fast. I've played this way about a month. Most of my work has been out of Kroepsch Studies #2, which feature short exercises conducive to limited time double lip play, followed by rest.
I like the sound I get with double lip. It's also solved some issues I've had with too strong an embouchure and voicing notes, particular (near) full fingered notes with the register key opened.
I play an M15 mouthpiece and #3 reeds--so on a relative scale, it's a setup involving relatively little jaw pressure.
Basically, I need a good protective device for my top two front teeth.
Thanks.
Post Edited (2021-09-06 19:34)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-09-06 19:33
Jarmo Hyvakko wrote:
> Try to get "parafilm"
> https://www.amazon.com/Parafilm-Roll-250-Length-Width/dp/B005KDF3X6
> That is a material you can make those things yourself.
Done! Thanks Jarmo!
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Author: Neckstrap
Date: 2021-09-06 20:45
You could always use EZO denture cushions and cut out a piece perfectly sized for your teeth. Super cheap and lasts forever (plus it's made to go in your mouth).
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-09-06 22:15
Hi SecondTry - sorry I hope I didn't come over as judgemental or anything there. I didn't mean to.
Is it okay if I ask another question just to try to understand? Does your top lip get sandwiched between your top teeth and the mp, and is it your top lip that hurts?
I'm not sure that I'm following what you mean, and I'm certain that if I'm not, then I'm going to have the same problem in about a month's time and wish I'd listened properly. :-)
I love the idea of using parafilm. I used to use that in the laboratory to seal the top of glass flasks. It makes me slightly cross-eyed to think of wrapping the stuff round my teeth. LOL! It's an amazing material though, so I could see how it would do the job.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-09-07 00:58
Neckstrap wrote:
> You could always use EZO denture cushions and cut out a piece
> perfectly sized for your teeth. Super cheap and lasts forever
> (plus it's made to go in your mouth).
The EZO product has, to the best of my knowledge, been discontinued.
I do though wear an elastic neck strap, "Neckstrap" , that not only helps support the weight of the instrument, but aids the right thumb's role in double lip of helping to snug the mouthpiece into the mouth.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-09-07 01:00
SunnyDaze wrote:
> Hi SecondTry - sorry I hope I didn't come over as judgemental
> or anything there. I didn't mean to.
You did not.
>
> Is it okay if I ask another question just to try to understand?
> Does your top lip get sandwiched between your top teeth and the
> mp, and is it your top lip that hurts?
Yes and yes.
>
> I'm not sure that I'm following what you mean, and I'm certain
> that if I'm not, then I'm going to have the same problem in
> about a month's time and wish I'd listened properly. :-)
>
> I love the idea of using parafilm. I used to use that in the
> laboratory to seal the top of glass flasks. It makes me
> slightly cross-eyed to think of wrapping the stuff round my
> teeth. LOL! It's an amazing material though, so I could see how
> it would do the job.
As mentioned, I took Jarmo's suggestion and ordered it on Amazon Prime, meaning it will be on my doorstep and about 2 days.
I'll post my findings using it.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-09-07 04:11
After years of trying to demystify double lip for myself, I have now finally gotten to a very satisfying set up that does not include much of any pressure (jaw, lip, snugging or anything). I now seamlessly move from single to double depending on how much I am trying to lip "DOWN" to a note (always keeping things as much in the "middle" as possible).
So as far as the "chicken and the egg" question goes with double lip, one needs to start with an approach to playing that is light and easy. Pain, will NOT motivate someone into lighter, you just need to start there.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2021-09-07 16:02
Double lip only works for me because my to teeth are lifted right up off my lip. So I press down with my top lip, but lift up with my top teeth. So there is no biting pressure at all.
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Author: kingofklez
Date: 2021-09-08 17:10
In a similar vein to what others suggest, I find this works best and most conveniently
https://www.liprotek.com/
Though I'm sure it's overpriced ($17 on Amazon) for what it is : some kind of mutable plastic that you soak in hot water and then mold over your teeth. It works great, lasts forever (I clean mine with a toothbrush when it gets gross). It's marketed for the lower teeth but you can obviously use it on your upper teeth. What I like about it is that it's consistent and reusable and comes with a sanitary case. It make take a few times to get a good impression but once you have it, you can basically forget about it for years and years. Yes, of course it's better not to need anything at all (and I'm pretty sure by now I probably don't need it) but it's nice as insurance just to know I'm not gonna cut my lip when reaching for a high note on reed I suddenly realize is bad.
Post Edited (2021-09-08 17:13)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-09-08 19:42
kingofklez wrote:
> In a similar vein to what others suggest, I find this works
> best and most conveniently
> https://www.liprotek.com/
> Though I'm sure it's overpriced ($17 on Amazon) for what it is
> : some kind of mutable plastic that you soak in hot water and
> then mold over your teeth. It works great, lasts forever (I
> clean mine with a toothbrush when it gets gross). It's marketed
> for the lower teeth but you can obviously use it on your upper
> teeth....
Funny @kingofklez--I just independently saw this product on the internet last night. Can you speak from experience that it might resist the gravitational forces of being placed on upper front teeth (in addition to lower front teeth)?
Thanks.
>
> Post Edited (2021-09-08 17:13)
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Author: kingofklez
Date: 2021-09-08 21:01
Yes it does that remarkably, the key is to push it in a bit between your teeth as you're making the impression and it stays in place very well, I forget it's there even and walk around for hours with it until I have to eat haha.
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Author: MarkS
Date: 2021-09-09 19:10
Hi,
I am a single lip player. I played using Parafilm for several years, then switched to Silverstein Omniguard, and then tried Liprotek. I believe Omniguard and Liprotek are essentially the same material (same directions, etc.), but the portion given in Liprotek was much smaller (but cheaper) than Omniguard. For me, Liprotek was too small to be useful. I have been happy with Omniguard. Silverstein says it should last about a year, but I have been wearing mine daily for almost two years, and still fine. I rinse it off in warm water after each use, and soak it in Listerine (the kind with alcohol) every few days to keep stuff from growing on it. Also, let it dry with its case open before putting it away.
Mark
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2021-09-09 20:57
Are you playing on a too-resistant setup? That could be the source of your lip pain.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-09-10 01:46
Paul Globus wrote:
> Are you playing on a too-resistant setup? That could be the
> source of your lip pain.
...more like too weak a mouth
With a Vandoren M15 and #3 reeds, the set of closer easier setups, let's say, is far smaller than the set of shorter lay, more open tip, hard reeds ones.
My pain, as I've described is two fold. First there's the pain of the teeth on the upper gums, then there's muscle fatigue. The latter is far more tolerable and something that I imagine one builds up tolerance against with time: no different that first learning to play. I'm using muscles that I haven't as actually engaged before as much, now when playing with double lip embouchure and as far as I'm concerned, such muscle fatigue is simply "par for the course."
The for more concerning biting pain though I did have some advancement on today. If came in the form of Santa-Amazon delivering 1" wide floral tape I ordered.
Until this time only narrower rows were available at my local brick and mortar stores.
The wider tape really makes a difference for me: it being wide enough to cover both my front top teeth. Then, it's simply a matter of taking about a 1' long piece of this floral tape and folding it over on itself enough times to be the right size and level of cushioning.
With narrower rolls I was dealing with 2 of the three dimension coverage issues: width and thickness.
Post Edited (2021-09-10 01:47)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2021-09-10 03:09
Why are you switching to double lip? It's not appropriate for everyone. If you can play the instrument sans lip pain employing single lip, why not stay with single lip? You'd be in very good company.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-09-10 03:45
Paul Globus wrote:
> Why are you switching to double lip? It's not appropriate for
> everyone. If you can play the instrument sans lip pain
> employing single lip, why not stay with single lip? You'd be in
> very good company.
>
Hi Paul:
I am attempting to become more proficient in double lip embouchure, ideally with the hopes of switching to it someday fulltime because I feel myself at the edge of the quality of sound I can produce with single lip--not that I'm unhappy with my sound--and feel that there is just some extra "uwee" (I think that may be an Opperman term ) that I get in my sound with the more open oral palette I get from this embouchure.
I've heard that it no way precludes reverting back to single lip if such endeavors prove a failure.
Some of my favorite sounding clarinet players play that way---not that I will ever be them, including Wright and Guffredi, but then again Manasse, whose sound I also love, is a single lip player. The first recording I ever heard, many years ago, was of Cahuzac and I've always wanted to sound more like him.
I also think there's benefits from playing double lip that can transfer back to single lip from training the player to not bite or press keys to hard, and do their best to mimic in sound, in their single lip embouchures, that the like and learned performing in double lip.
Post Edited (2021-09-10 03:49)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2021-09-10 12:59
I have played double lip from the beginning -- more than sixty years now. I can also play single lip and I doubt that anyone listening to me could hear any difference in the sound I produce. In short, I don't tend to believe that double lip equals a better sound (or a better anything for that matter).
I heard Harold Wright in performance a number of times and he was indeed a marvelous instrumentalist and musician. But it's a mistake to assume that his attainment was due solely, or even mostly, to his embouchure.
Here's the point. Maybe you are indeed more naturally suited to playing double lip (which is the case for me). Then again, maybe you are not. If you are experiencing pain playing double lip, you need to consider that possibility.
I wish you well.
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