 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rc.prestige
Date: 2021-08-16 15:14
Lots of discussion exists comparing CSVR with SEVR and/or R13/RC. Has anyone compared CSGiii and CSVR side by side?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2021-08-16 22:17
Well I'm a Yamaha Artist. I've owned several R13's as far back as 1969. I'm playing on the CSVR system. I tested the CG as well as comparing the R13's at the Yamaha facility here in southern California. I also played on the SEV.
Frankly all of these horns work. The SEV has a bigger bore than the CSVR. The CSG has a straight bore. It is not tapered like the SEV and the CSVR and of course the Buffet. After playing all of these horns I have been playing the CSVR because of the smaller bore and that tapered bore. The tuning is excellent. This is one of the reasons for selecting the CSVR. I'm not saying the Buffet R13 doesn't tune well, This would have to do with your mouthpiece and your barrel. Also the Yamaha's play really well right out of the case. You can buy this at 5PM in the late afternoon and play a concert that night. You don't have to play test 20 R13's and then pick your favorite. The Yamaha horns are very good. Just testing 1 or 2 and you will love both. There's no need to test anymore.
I feel the SEV is a fantastic horn, I feel like it has a similar feel to the top Selmer clarinets. The CSG, German bore is very good. The horn is a bit more expensive, but not too much. I don't know any American symphony player using the CSG, so I would discourage buying one. It does sound a bit different, so blending in with your clarinet section might be of concern. Remember this horn has a straight bore, so the sound quality is slightly different. It has a beautiful sound.
Some readers may not know this - Before the R13's were made the bores on Buffet horns were straight barrels too. The release of the R13 was the beginning of tapered bores.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2021-08-17 03:07
About 14 years ago, I was playing in the Nashville Symphony and bought new clarinets. At the time, the CSG was new and I tried it and loved it. The sound, tuning, and response was just amazing....until I tried to play it in the section. I could easily play with the flutes, oboes, and bassoons, but couldn't really blend well with the other clarinet players who were all playing Buffets. I figured if the CSG was good then the SEV might be a fit for me. I got some SEVs and they were perfect. I've been playing that same Bb SEV ever since. I picked up a used CS A clarinet that I've also been playing since. I liked these horns so much that I even went and got their Eb which replaced a Prestige RC that I was then playing. Yamaha make excellent horns!
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Author: rc.prestige
Date: 2021-08-17 13:01
I have tried them all - CSVR, SEVR, CSGiii and SE Artist ii but only have limited experience with the SEVR and even less experience with the CSVR. I do however, seem to have much better success with intonation every time I pick up a CSG. To me, they seem to be more consistent than the others. I tend to have tuning problems (sharpness around low G A B) with the SE bore instruments, but don't find these to be a problem on any CSG I have tried. Everything sits pretty much where I want it (ok throat F is pretty flat on all of them).
I guess I'm mainly trying to get a better understanding of the sound concept of the CS bore instruments (CSVR / CSG).
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Author: simon.obrien
Date: 2021-08-17 18:49
hi (first post, long time lurker).
I will be purchasing my 1st professional instrument soon (adult learner) but due to Covid have not been able to go an experiment/test different models to get a feel for how they sound, I am also interested in the CSVR.
You can find some recordings on youtube of the CSVR (and other instruments) but due to compression I don't think you can get a good feel for how the instrument sounds.
I did however find some recordings on soundcloud of a Lecturer of Clarinet at Wright State University, John Kurokawa who plays on the CSVR, I appreciate nothing substitutes for testing an instrument but I felt the recordings (and performance) were excellent so you might be able to get a feel for the sound concept from here. I hope this helps.
https://soundcloud.com/johnkurokawa/
Simon O'Brien
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2021-08-17 22:06
Really good posts above.
I forgot to add this...The CSVR A clarinet is by far the best A clarinet I've ever played. It is so enjoyable to play! The Buffet A's are good with a fair amount of resistance and I'm OK with that. However, the Yamaha A plays like their Bb, free blowing with just enough resistance we are all looking for. I really can't feel the difference between the 2 Bb and A CSVR horns. They sound and act the same.
Added, I was always timid with the upper register, above C with the A clarinets, comparing the Buffet A and the Yamaha A. When hitting the F several times on the Buffet R13 it would jump to the high A. I just HATED that. There was this fear when performing. Well the Yamaha has never let me down. I have no fear when playing above the high C. The Yamaha A also tunes a bit better, not a lot. The upper register blends better with the flutes, oboes, french horns. These instruments tend to go a tad bit sharp up high, maybe 442, the R13's tend to drop say from 440 to 438. Not much really, but it is noticeable. The CSVR A clarinets hold the pitch at 440. Cheers!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-08-17 23:58
simon.obrien wrote:
> You can find some recordings on youtube of the CSVR (and other
> instruments) but due to compression I don't think you can get a
> good feel for how the instrument sounds.
>
I'm not sure the explanation is all compression for why it's hard to get a good feel for an instrument's tone quality. The sound any instrument makes includes the influence of the player - his or her physical characteristics, playing style, reed choices, etc. When you listen to a recording of any kind, you're hearing what a particular player sounds like with that instrument. Your result will inevitably be different, and it's that result - you and the instrument together - that matters.
> I did however find some recordings on soundcloud of a Lecturer
> of Clarinet at Wright State University, John Kurokawa who plays
> on the CSVR, I appreciate nothing substitutes for testing an
> instrument but I felt the recordings (and performance) were
> excellent so you might be able to get a feel for the sound
> concept from here. I hope this helps.
Continuing in the same vein, what you're hearing is John Kurokawa playing on the CSVR, not Simon O'Brien. It *might* (I'm not really sure) mean something to hear Kurokawa - or another skilled player - playing several instruments in separate but identically made recordings. Given that the player, having enough time, will adjust to each instrument, the main source of any difference will more likely than not be the instrument itself.
The point of play testing the instruments yourself is that the result you as an individual get from the instrument is what you're buying, not what someone else gets. It *has* been hard to manage this over the last year and a half, so I guess the next best thing is to find an outlet with a really favorable return policy and try instruments one or two at a time.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-08-18 00:06
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> Some readers may not know this - Before the R13's were made the
> bores on Buffet horns were straight barrels too. The release of
> the R13 was the beginning of tapered bores.
>
Bob, I thought the Buffet polycylindrical bores developed by Robert Carrée were the first non-straight bores on any of the main clarinet brands. Were there other popular non-straight bores before the R13?
Karl
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Author: simon.obrien
Date: 2021-08-18 00:28
Thanks Karl, I 100% agree with your comments.
I wasn't totally clear in my post, my plan is to play test a number of instruments very soon (UK lockdowns have now ended), I am definitely not advocating instrument choice based on recordings of others players.
I just thought I would share some recordings of John as I enjoyed them very much, and I understood that he plays the CSVR which I thought might be helpful to rc.prestige. Having said that I fully agree on all your points regarding how useful this actually is.
Simon
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2021-08-18 00:49
In this video Melbourne Symphony principal clarinetist David Thomas has some perceptive remarks on why he switched from a popular French brand of clarinet to Yamaha . Some takeaways are 1) He was trained in Vienna and interested in the Viennese approach to playing: 2) He initially switched to the CSG Yamaha which he perceives as having a warm, Germanic sound; 3) He later switched to the SE Artist Yamaha model because he found it offered not only the warmth of the CSG but also the power to cut through the orchestra easily and be heard.
Not everyone will have the same preferences or needs or even the same perceptions, but Thomas' insights should be of interest to any player considering switching (or not switching) to Yamahas.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=david+thoma+melbourne+symphony+yamaha+clarinets.
One of the best sounding recitals on Yamaha clarinets I have heard is Patrick Morgan's at the ClarinetFest2021: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=patrick+morgan+clarinet+fest2021+recital. Mr. Morgan is principal clarinet in the President's Own US Marine Band. Does anybody recognize which model of Yamaha he is playing?
Post Edited (2021-08-18 02:02)
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Author: jack
Date: 2021-08-18 10:23
Love my (two) SEVmaster Yamaha clarinets.
Fwiw, have tried many! mouthpieces. My new and only love is the new Chedeville Umbria, F3 mouthpiece. Free trial, so nothing to lose. If you are looking, you owe it to yourself to try this.
Not associated with Chedeville (or Yamaha), just wanted to let you know.
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Author: rc.prestige
Date: 2021-08-18 13:50
Seabreeze, he is playing CSG's. Seems to have a Silver Bb and Hamilton plated A.
I have spoken to him once, a long time back, and he mentioned having a modified barrel. The barrel in these videos is definitely slightly longer than the standard CSG barrels. Not sure how this works for him, unless his mouthpiece is super sharp...
Post Edited (2021-08-18 14:03)
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2021-08-18 23:18
I use the same P&S Zoom barrel on both my CSG Bb and A. The zoom feature is convenient and a nice complement to the instruments' excellent intonation. For me the barrel seems to give a little more ping to the sound than any of the (many) CSG stock barrels I own.
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Author: Robert N.
Date: 2021-08-19 04:20
Is there a difference in the resistance between each of these three models?
When I hear that the SEVR is reminiscent of the old large bore Selmers, I wonder if the feel similar to play in terms of resistance and other aspects.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2021-08-19 20:27
I played the CSG from 2007-2017, with some crossover with the CSVR from 2017 onwards, and now just the CSVR.
I've always liked the CSG, because it has a different sound than the R-13 and clones. There is a quality of overtone resonance that I found incredibly appealing when I first tried it out at ClarinetFest Vancouver, especially the A clarinet, and I am really grateful to Tomoji Hirakata and Dr. Justin O'Dell for spending time to answer my questions about the instrument. A former student of mine had acquired a set of CSG's but found them different enough from Buffet to warrant a switch back; I handed them by Brannen-customized set of R-13's and never looked back. Later on, I acquired a set of used CSG2's, with the extra LH Eb/Ab lever and the low E/F resonance thumb key, and used them through 2019. That set went to one of my conducting students.
Especially with the CSG2, when paired with the Zoom barrels that I preferred for playing in orchestra, on recordings they instrument cuts through the ensemble very easily, although it doesn't seem that way when sitting/playing it. A few people tend to characterize it as a "dark vs. bright" thing but that isn't very accurate--the tone itself is quite covered, but has a resonant quality that is easy to distinguish in the woodwind section blend. It's this characteristic that I think some folks don't like--it is like violins that don't sound all that loud under the ear, but project beautifully in a concert hall. The localized result for the player vs. what the audience hears can be deceiving. Anyhow, I did want to try other barrels that did not exist in the short ~55mm length that the CSG's use, and the arrival of the CSVR was an opportunity to try something else.
With the CSVR, I feel like I have all of the good things that my set of R-13's came with, but with better keywork, better intonation, and more consistent behavior "out the door" without needing an overhaul from new. I had the opportunity to select them from a huge number at the Yamaha Atelier with the help of my friend and colleague Thomas Carroll, and I've been recommending it to students ever since.
Edit to add: I would be happy with either set, as they all served wonderfully in orchestra and chamber music playing, especially the A clarinets of both models.
Post Edited (2021-08-19 21:54)
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Author: rc.prestige
Date: 2021-08-20 12:35
gwie I totally agree. I have recorded myself doing sound tests with a Buffet Tradition and a CSG. The Tradition wasn't sealing properly on a couple of notes, and the CSG was near perfect straight out of the plastic wrapping. I felt the CSG was slightly smaller sounding, but on the recording (I used a decent mic) the CSG was immediately louder, and rounder in tone. The Tradition did have more sparkle and cut in the tone though.
Did you have issues with throat E and F flatness? Every CSG I've ever tried has had this, slightly worse than most other models I've played on.
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2021-08-20 21:44
I've played a lot of CSG's and they have all had slightly flat throat E and F. I've just gotten used to venting these notes with the LH C#/G# key when required. To me that is a small price to pay for the otherwise excellent intonation.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2021-08-22 20:42
The CSGII’s have been the perfect fit for me the last nine years. I’ve never read trouble blending in professional settings.
The pitch is great, the sound holds at all dynamics.
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