 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-05-01 22:21
STOP ENTERTAINING THIS NONSENSE NOW!
They do NOTHING of any benefit on woodwind instruments - they're only a hindrance and an inconvenience.
If you believe they do work in preventing the spread of airborne particles, then do you even know how woodwind instruments work?
If you don't, then do some research which you should've done right from the start of this pandemic instead of believing all this conscious easing nonsense.
A fool and their money are soon parted.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-05-01 22:42
Haha! I'm glad I held my reaction and let you take the lead. When I question the integrity of the science behind such things, the thread gets shut down.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
[Edit: I do feel these conversations have a place on the bboard - because these issues/decisions face the clarinet-playing community as we return to performance ensembles. I would suggest one could argue that there might even be a health-negative impact in putting fluid-collecting devices onto the end of one's instrument, and then handling that and placing it back into the case.]
Post Edited (2021-05-01 22:57)
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2021-05-01 22:53
Somebody obviously saw the opportunity to make a buck with items that "seem to make sense" in this pandemic, without scientific validity. And it makes people feel better that they're doing something.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2021-05-01 23:11
While I'm required to use a bell cover on my clarinets, the flautists continue to spew forth a cloud of droplets blown across their instruments' embouchure plates...unabated.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-05-01 23:29
Ursa wrote:
> While I'm required to use a bell cover on my clarinets, the
> flautists continue to spew forth a cloud of droplets blown
> across their instruments' embouchure plates...unabated.
They should all have their own isolation pods for that - as well as soundproofed and with the mics connected up to autotune.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2021-05-02 00:53
I'm not mad - I simply can't believe these things are required by some schools and bands when the whole science behind woodwind instruments renders them completely useless and a complete waste of money and resources.
I got fed up and left several facebook woodwind pages as every other post on them seemed to be an advert for these things.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-05-02 01:29
I agree the use of these things makes no sense. Don't forget the air that comes out of the holes in a clarinet.
I belong to a Band Directors facebook group where most talk about these things, and the regulations these band directors must follow. "You guys can rehearse inside masked and/or distanced while I have to rehearse outside, bearing the brunt of the horribly cold weather here in Southern California".
I have said all along to wait 'til everyone is vaccinated before doing ANYTHING in ANY large group. Band, Sports, Poker, whatever. Very few want to just suck it up and wait. Too frustrating. Let's asses the risk vs. reward-- Maybe it's OK if one or 2 people die because we got together, but not if 6 or 7 die.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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Author: davyd
Date: 2021-05-02 19:38
"Wait until everyone is vaccinated" - what to do about those who refuse to be vaccinated, or those who, for some medical reason, cannot be vaccinated?
I don't imagine anyone wants to be the gatekeeper who, when they are required to ask whether someone is vaccinated, gets the angry reply "None of your business".
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-05-02 20:59
"I don't imagine anyone wants to be the gatekeeper who, when they are required to ask whether someone is vaccinated, gets the angry reply "None of your business"."
If the answer mattered, and someone gave that reply, I would assume the worst.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2021-05-02 21:37
Poor choice of words on my part. Should have said wait until all that want to be vaccinated are. Yes there are a rare few that can't be vaccinated. There are also people who are allergic to peanuts and some that must live in a bubble.
I care not about someone getting the virus who simply decided not to get the vaccine. (Edited slightly - Mark C.)
I mean you wait until everyone has been able to get the vaccine, then resume all band and other group activities pretty much back to normal. Mask on face optional at that point.
Before that point I vote no group activities at all, at least none indoors.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2021-05-02 21:38)
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Author: Burt
Date: 2021-05-02 23:52
At least the clarinetists sit BEHIND the flutes. And, I agree, bell covers do nothing for a clarinetist except preventing him from using a stand.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2021-05-03 04:04
The paper studying clarinet playing indicates a significant plume of aerosols is expelled from the bell - there's some pretty cool videos of it. That surprised me. Higher pitches seemed to produce higher velocity plumes. What came out the clarinet bell was comparable to what comes out a singers mouth. Bell covers greatly reduced the plumes from the bell.
The study did not thoroughly check escape plumes from tone holes. All that was done in that regard was to take measurements when playing C5, which has an open tone hole near the bottom of the instrument, with a) just the bell inside the measurement box, and b) with the bell and the open tone hole inside the box. The result was little if any difference in measured aerosols - having bell covers made a far greater difference. Note, they also measured CO2 emissions, and those were higher with the tone hole in the box.
Aerosol emission via tone holes should be studied further. However, this study strongly indicates that a lot of aerosols are expelled from the clarinet bell, and that bell covers stop a high percentage of it. It indicates that bell covers work. It also might indicate that, while sound is emitted from tone holes, and CO2 is, most of the expelled aerosols come out the bell.
You can download the paper here:
https://scholar.colorado.edu/concern/articles/hq37vp75r
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2021-05-03 05:21
Philip, I may be misreading it, and I *was* reading quite quickly and not every word. Even its conclusions are technical and difficult reading. So the study is limited in its usefulness to an average reader who just wants to know what was found about aerosol emissions from a clarinet.
As you've already noted, though, the only measurement of tone hole emission seems to have been from the open bottom tone hole when the clarinetist played C5. As I read it, the open tone hole, when it was included inside the box with the masked bell, contributed significantly (in a statistical sense) to the overall amount of emission inside the box. But there was no effort to compare the effect of the open holes involved in, for instance a throat note, which vent much farther from the bell. So they didn't explore what effect a bell mask has on those short tube notes.
I don't have any problem accepting the effectiveness of a bell mask when B4 or C5 are being played, or E3 or F3. Maybe even G3/D5. But clarinet parts aren't limited to those long notes where maximal air volume is intuitively exiting the bell. Unless I've missed important content in this report, it seems as if the test designers really didn't understand or didn't want to consider the really important differences between woodwind sound production and vocal production, where all the air is exiting from the singer or speaker's mouth. And this is the important point most of us are making when we minimize a bell mask's effect.
As I've watched our players in the youth band I conduct on Sundays, now that we've resumed in person rehearsals with face and bell coverings in place, it seems to me, again intuitively, that the slotted face masks we're requiring the brass and woodwind players to wear are of even less use. If the player's technique is sound, there shouldn't be any air exiting from the mouth except what goes into the instrument, so the face mask isn't going to stop any emissions.
I actually noticed today for the first time since we started rehearsing 3 weeks ago that the flute players are using mask with slots on each side to pass the flute through so the mouth plate itself is inside a sort of pouch. I don't know exactly how these masks don't interfere with the air flow enough to damp the sound, but our flutists seemed to be able to play quite well with them in place.
Karl
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-05-03 19:01
Chris P wrote:
> STOP ENTERTAINING THIS NONSENSE NOW!
>
> They do NOTHING of any benefit on woodwind instruments -
> they're only a hindrance and an inconvenience.
>
> If you believe they do work in preventing the spread of
> airborne particles, then do you even know how woodwind
> instruments work?
>
> If you don't, then do some research which you should've done
> right from the start of this pandemic instead of believing all
> this conscious easing nonsense.
>
> A fool and their money are soon parted.
>
I completely appreciate the spirit from where this comes.
If my summer groups get to perform and such bell cover nonsense is requested I will make a stink...not because I am in any way against taking steps, even ones that come at personal sacrifice or expense to virally protect myself and others...
...but rather, because (and I think this Chris' point and frustration) you don't address a pandemic with scientifically meaningless window dressing like bell covers and promote false narratives about virus spread that don't comport with science.
Bell covers somewhat protect against virus spread for clarinetists who limit themselves solely to the playing of E3 ![[E3]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/e3.gif) , a classification no clarinetist falls into.
:)
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