 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-02-27 12:38
Firstly it is important to put up front that I have found the European Signature reeds to work great and very cane like over the last five years that I have used them. The latest iteration is the same (exactly the same) great product that features wonderful constancy from reed to reed in terms of quality and strength (though some have not found the strength constancy I have, these last three that I have are virtually identical to each other to me).
But I have a few problems.
The plastic sarcophagus has been criticized in another recent thread. I have to say that I find the new reed holder wasteful space. It could be at least half its length if it just had a flush opening at the front........slide the reed out; pop it back in. Although it is marked a recycle number of "5" and Waste Management (WM) takes 1-7. That's where all three of mine went sans the little rubbery insert that got trashed. Who has room for that in a case (if you carry multiple Legeres)? I use the LEbLANC four reed holder; small, thin, holds the reed in securely and flat without any undue pressure.
Finally there is the "logo" issue. I was really looking forward to having the strength of the reed imprinted in a more permanent way upon the reed. In my first attempt to put one of the reeds back into the sarcophagus, I used my thumbnail to try and shimmy the reed backwards (not the way to get them back in place) and my thumbnail slipped down the "bark" scraping the "Legere" name off the reed! Apparently the new method of imprinting uses a thin film or laminate of sorts that can be fairly easy to scrape off. Though a slight improvement over the round strength sticker that fell off after just a few uses, this new marking method is a far cry from the older much more permanent logo on the reed.
So what's the problem? I have multiple reed guards each one with a different associated strength. What I did up to this point is use a permanent marker to replace the sticker for designation purposes. The problem there is that the surface of the Legere does not hold the permanent marker for more than a couple of uses either.
Come on guys! How hard would it be to use the older printing method with the strength designation ON the reed already?!!!?
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: OneWatt
Date: 2021-02-27 19:21
My primary problem with the European Legere is that it's "just okay." ... kind of "meh" ... at best.
I can get much more musical enjoyment and control out of a cane reed with adjustment (ATG plus vixen flat file) but find that each time I reach for a Legere I'm left disappointed.
As for marking, I haven't yet had the disappearing ink problem. Sounds frustrating, but my ink marks haven't lasted long on my cane reeds either.
The one thing I like about the product? Its case. I feel it's well designed. And the reality of recyclable plastic is that the vast majority of it gets dumped into landfills, not recycled. Holding on to it and actually using it is better for the environment then erroneously thinking that putting it in a recycling bin meant that it got recycled.
Don't mean to be contrary, but my biggest problem with the European Signature product is that it's not a great sounding reed. Then again, perhaps that's my problem, not the reed's ;-)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-02-27 22:43
Understood
I think I may be addressing those who already like and use the Legere reeds. And I also hope to have the ear of ANYONE at Legere. I am not asking for a theoretical change to their reed, but rather using the printing process they had used up to this point.
Maybe they do like everyone else and just strength test what comes out of the machine and slap a corresponding label AFTER manufacture. In that case the "laminate" style new logo (and strength indicator) may be the best post production option
Just hoping that is NOT the case.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: OneWatt
Date: 2021-02-27 23:34
@Paul - Good suggestions.
To clarify, I don't dislike the ES Legere. In fact I keep one on hand since I know exactly how it will play immediately upon setup ... no muss/no fuss.
It's merely that I find the sound and control never truly "wow" me the way a cane reed (can do).
Again, despite innumerable hours practicing, my being a clarinewbie must have some bearing on this experience.
And of course I feel motivated to keep trying from time to time given how many accomplished musicians make beautiful music with the Legere products.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2021-02-28 02:06
Maybe, Paul, we need to find a marker that will bond to polypropylene?
OneWatt, it's my theory that there's a style and cut of Legere that will work for anyone, you just have to keep trying them. Like the musicians who started using soprano sax reeds on their clarinets and loved the result. Nothing wrong with cane, of course, but every now and then it might be worth ex[perimenting with plastic.
Anyway, I've given my opinion of the new European Cut Legere — it works exceptionally well on my Fobes CF bass; good response and I love that it's slightly wider.
I've given my opinion of the functionality of the new reed case — again, it's well-designed and keeps reeds safe. It's also completely unnecessary since I use a Selmer reed case for soprano and old La Voz holders for my bass reeds and have never had an issue with taking a new Legere reed out of their old package and slipping the reed into my holder where it will happily live for the better part of a year. They get an "A" for design, however.
And I've shared my opinion about the environmental aspects of the reed case. We currently have no recycling anything during Covid and even before that, only #2 was accepted. And I've heard reports that many plastic recycling programs are more for feels than anything else, sort of a polypropylene Potemkin recycling program to assuage our concerns about waste. The new case rates a "C-" for assuming that everyone will recycle them. Luckily, at the rate of use, it'll be years before I've got a box of old cases.
However, I did locate an outfit called "Gimme 5" where we can mail our #5 plastic for responsible disposal. Now guess what? — the program is temporarily suspended due to Covid — however, they do currently collect #5 at Whole Foods stores. For me the nearest Whole Foods is 3½ hours away so I'll just hold onto them and mail them in if the program is revived. I'll let people know here if I find out that the service is running again.
Gimme 5
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-02-28 05:54
If anyone has a suggestion for a marker that will leave a permanent mark on polypropylene that would be GREAT !!!!!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: OneWatt
Date: 2021-02-28 06:05
Paul -
Since it's extremely difficult to find an ink-based pen/marker that will adhere to polypropoyene, perhaps consider adding a little paper sticker to the "bark" area (i.e., not the flat side that rests against the table of the mouthpiece). You can make a note if needed.
But even just a snippet of colored post-it note paper under a small piece of clear tape might alert you as to which Legere is which.
Just a thought. Also, this solution is less likely to be toxic or "run" when placed near your mouth.
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2021-02-28 12:50
I used to say to the environmental pro cane clarinetists, that they have more plastic in their vandoren boxes around every reed than one legere reed has. This is not the case anymore. Big, clumsy reed case, very difficult to handle. A normal well ventilated case the reeds on a glass or acrylic plate bound with elastic band is much better.
I found a way to put the reed back to that terrible thing. Slip the butt end in first then press the reed in that awful holder one side first, then the other. Feels very violent and i am not sure if correct. The best use of the holder is to throw it in the recycle bin.
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2021-03-01 00:01
Paul, this is off topic, but how did you find the Behn Sonos mouthpiece? If you like, you could of course make a new thread about it, or just tell here.
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Author: LFabian
Date: 2021-03-01 10:29
I have been using a battery operated engraver right on the cane.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-03-01 13:45
I need to review the Sono (sorry I miss identified the name as Sonus). It is quite amazing and gives me a new way to enjoy Boehm mouthpieces (which is why I'm dragging my feet on talking about it........a new experience that requires some time to figure it out).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-03-09 01:42
I have to share a suggestion from a fellow Boarder (Breitling) that worked great for me in my attempt to imprint the strength on the Legeres after the little sticker falls off.
All you have to do is make the surface at the butt end of the reed "dull" with some light emery board sanding. The point is only to make the surface hold ink (I use Staedtler permanent markers). You DO NOT want to thin the reed which may cause negative performance issues.
So far the markings are holding great!
It was further suggested that I may also apply a coat of clear nail polish to preserve the markings but so far that does not seem necessary and it is certainly holding MUCH better than the non-roughed surface ever did.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: mddds
Date: 2021-03-09 02:44
Paul's way fared better than mine.
My advice is to take off as little material as possible.
Sandpaper or emery board seems to be the way to go.
The play quality of 2 reeds declined significantly after using a rotary drill (taking off very little of the material).
Seems that little adjustments that far from the tip still affects reed playability.
Also, the acrylic bur leaves relatively smooth marks on the reed, rather than a roughened texture.
-CK
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2021-03-09 04:17
I have tried two strengths of the bass clarinet version of this reed, and can't understand why anyone would use these instead of cane. Yes, they are loud and clear sounding, but the tonal richness of cane is nonexistent.
Just my experience.
Post Edited (2021-03-09 07:08)
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2021-03-11 09:08
I started with #2-1/2 and then on the recommendation of the Légère rep, who seemed extremely knowledgeable about reed design and their product, dropped down to a #2.
The #2 plays better for me than the #2-1/2 but still lacks the warmth and tonal flexibility of a cane reed IMHO.
I have read about some players thinning the rails on these for better response, and also watched a video of someone thinning the reed just inboard of the rails, but have not attempted these adjustments.
What is your experience Josh?
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2021-03-11 09:23
Tim,
I don't any experience with Legere Euro Cut bass reeds as of yet, hence the reason I asked. That said, based on my experiences on the Bb version, I'm not too surprised of the results you've had: Excellent response, but lacks the richness of a cane reed or their soprano sax signature reeds.
BUT I did try their American Cut tenor reeds after Walter Grabner claimed that they work extremely well on his bass pieces, and I concur. They work really well on my Fobes 10K bass mpc, have a very full, rich and natural sound that isn't far off from a functioning Vandoren Blue Box reed. The only issue was that I only had access to reed strength that is too soft, a strength 3 Legere AC tenor is midway between a Vandy Blue Box/D'Addario Reserve 3 & 3.5(and matches the 3+ strength of the latter), so I need to find a 3.25 of the Legere AC tenor to match the Vandy Blue Box/D'Addario Reserve 3.5s I normally use so I can make a more accurate comparision(which I will do so later this month!)
Josh
Post Edited (2021-03-12 07:54)
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2021-03-11 14:00
Josh, are the tenor reeds the same width as the European cut bass clarinet reeds? My Leblanc alto came with some new cane bass reeds and not having anything else at hand right off (and covid making it difficult to shop) I found that these worked ok. So I then ordered a Legère standard bass and a European bass reed and while the European plays much better than my experience with their other reeds, it is just a smidge too wide for my Hite mp. Would the tenor be less broad? The European cut bass is 18.4mm and a good bit wider than the standard Legère bass or a cane reed. I'm wondering if it could be cut down at the sides? Thanks for any suggestions.
Also, those huge plastic boxes are ridiculous and a real waste.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2021-03-11 17:32
Hi Judy,
I haven't tried the Euro cut bass reeds(I was actually mentioning my experience with the Bb version in my previous post, and noting how it matches Tim's experience with the new bass version), but the American Cut tenor reeds is ~18.1-18.2mm in width and a tiny bit wider than a standard cane bass reed(18mm) and its fits fine and plays very well on my Fobes mouthpiece.
Josh
Post Edited (2021-03-15 06:16)
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2021-03-11 18:04
Thanks Josh. So I've got 0.4mm too much on the sides. Synthetic reed gurus : do I take a whack at it with an Exacto knife or ReedGeek?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-03-11 20:38
I interject here only because I've always believed that the Legere reed strength and complete performance characteristics where a result of the combination of the material, cut and the overall dimensions.
In the example of taking just a bit too much from the butt area resulting in ruining the reed, we see that it must be the case that ALL of the material is part of the balance of the reed.
I would also hasten to point out that in Bb clarinet world, there are many players who double on Eb using standard Bb reeds with no problem and in fact get better results that way. There are also German players using German mouthpieces (much smaller table and window) with Boehm reeds......and getting great results.
When I FIRST saw a Legere European Signature reed, I thought it was a mistake and I sent it back to Woodwind Brasswind (I also was using M/O ligatures which DO NOT work with that width). However, I have come to know and love the sizing to point that now a regularly cut cane reed looks odd to me.
As always though, it is the performance that matters, not the looks
................Paul Aviles
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2021-03-14 05:56
Judy:
I should also note that the wider width of the reed than the rails than the mouthpiece window appears to be a characteristic design feature of the Euro cut reeds in general, whether this proposition is true or not, I'll let either someone from Legere or Legere experts weigh in.
On a slightly digressing note: Back when I played a German system+bore bass clarinet(an inexpensive yet great quality Foag Low C, and an entirely different design that won't work with normal Boehm bass gear w/o substantial mods) I mostly used Vandoren Blue Box alto clarinet/sax reeds on the German bass mouthpieces I have(15mm window vs 18mm on the far more common Boehm bass mpcs, and the openings of the former are much more similar to a Boehm alto clarinet's). The alto reeds I used are 1mm wider(16mm), and yet they worked really well for me, and such is the same case for many other German bass cl players out there, so much that even Johannes Gleichweit has made German bass pieces to work with the blue box alto reeds alongside the standard German bass reeds(1mm narrower at 15mm)!
Comes to show you that there are exceptions where reeds wider than the mpc window can still work well!
Josh
Post Edited (2021-04-15 00:08)
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Author: graham
Date: 2021-03-14 17:38
There may be some differences in response arising from reeds that are wider than the mouthpiece rails, but, within certain bounds, it seems not to cause problems and seems even to be beneficial. Soprano Sax reeds on an E flat clarinet give good results IMO (as they do on B flat mouthpieces (only tried on close facings)).
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