 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-08-16 14:00
Hi,
I wondered if I could ask a quick question about storing reeds?
I'm working at trying to adjust reeds just now and my book says they need to be soaked to do it. But then I worry about putting them away to store on a glass sheet in case the flat side stays wet and gets fungus or bugs growing on it.
I know I'm meant to put them on the glass sheet to keep them flat, but how do they get dried out and stay hygienic if they are like that?
I have two boxes like these but of a different brand:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Yibuy-Clarinet-Magnetic-Closure-Mahogany/dp/B01AI435PE/ref=sr_1_12?dchild=1&keywords=clarinet+reeds+box&qid=1597571830&sr=8-12
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bedler-Holder-Capacity-Saxophone-Clarinet/dp/B08F4VVM9C/ref=sr_1_308?dchild=1&keywords=clarinet+reeds+box&qid=1597571916&sr=8-308
Is the trick that I am meant to rub them with rush to seal the pores so the water doesn't go inside, or something like that?
Thanks!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-08-16 17:34
There are many different takes on the immediate (short-term) storage of reeds, but I would not worry about your above scenario. A reed maker friend of mine would slap a wet reed being finished on a flat piece of glass to let it dry that way ......and warp. Then flatten it more the next day, slap it wet on the glass and let it warp again. This process went on until the reed would stay flat. Of course that was for unfinished reeds that had extra material available to lose. Point being there really was no fungus.
The only time I've experienced fungus was when reeds were kept in containers that held in the moisture and air. Only then would the moisture got out of hand. While living in Orlando where the humidity is always off the charts, just leaving reeds out (sans containers of any sort) was fine and no fungus every accumulated. So as long as some air circulation gets to your reeds there should be no problem.
If you're speaking of long term storage, you can leave them in their box, stored the way you'd store a clarinet......with no extremes of temperature (if you'd be uncomfortable so would your horn, or reeds).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-08-16 17:51
SunnyDaze wrote:
> my book says they need to be soaked to do it.
I don't know about "soaked." The reed needs to be wet. A few seconds in your mouth or a water cup should be enough for a brand new reed. If it's too wet - as in waterlogged or nearly so - the response and sound will change and you'll end up over-adjusting.
> I know I'm meant to put them on the glass sheet to keep them
> flat, but how do they get dried out and stay hygienic if they
> are like that?
>
This can be a charged issue, believe it or not. Here's my understanding of the problem (others *will* disagree).
First off, in my experience, putting cane or wood against a flat surface doesn't keep it from warping, which is the point of flat glass holders. Wood that dries unevenly exerts considerable force toward the surface that dries (and contracts) first. Most reed holders can't exert enough counter-force to prevent that, especially since they don't generally press on the edges where the warping occurs.
Many players solve the problem by not letting the reeds dry out at all, using things like Boveda cigar humidifier packs or D'Addario's Reed Vitalizer version in a plastic bag with their reed holders or a case with charcoal cartridges that regulate humidity levels. I'm not sure this doesn't promote the kind of organism growth you're worried about. But lots of people use this approach, apparently without issues.
Better, IMO, whatever you use for storage, dry the reeds **flat side up** before you put them into any kind of storage container.
If you can find one, use a reed case that holds the reeds on their edges so both surfaces are exposed to air.
Many reed holders use a plastic surface with grooves cut into it to allow some air circulation, or at least exposure, under the flat part of the reed.
But whatever you use, IMO the first step ought to be to dry the reeds flat side up before anything else.
> Is the trick that I am meant to rub them with rush to seal the
> pores so the water doesn't go inside, or something like that?
>
I've known players who "sealed" the reed surfaces with newsprint or other smooth paper. You wouldn't want to use an abrasive (like rush) because you'd scrape wood off and affect the dimensions of the vamp. Sealing the ends of the fibers tends to happen naturally after a few playing sessions anyway.
Karl
Post Edited (2020-08-16 20:15)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-08-16 21:35
Thanks, that's really good to know. I'm currently standing the reeds up on their side, resting against the outside of the reed box, so that sounds maybe about right then.
I do have one data point on fungus growth that might give you a laugh.
Our lovely E.J. Arnold clarinet came into the family secondhand in 1958, but no one mentioned that reeds were meant to be regularly changed and there wasn't money in the family for lessons at that time. So that clarinet had one reed in the case, which was used intermittently by budding players, just as though it was another part of the old clarinet. To my shame, I even had the instrument repadded in 2001 without buying a new reed. As I left the shop the man said "would you like a new reed?" and as I was a student, and had no money, I said "No it's okay, I have one thanks."
The clarinet did not play very well with its one reed, and no one persisted in trying to learn to play it. Three years ago I finally found out from Youtube that I was meant to regularly replace the reeds and start on a soft one. Then we finally managed to get the family clarinet to play, and now I am working towards grade 4 very happily. That's pretty good family progress after 60 years I think. Thank goodness for the internet.
From this experiment, I can tell you that very ancient reeds do get a sort of grey fungus haze on them if stored badly for 20 years+. But oddly, it's not that bad even after all that time, and they will still give a good loud squeak if properly encouraged.
It does make me wonder though, how many houses have a family clarinet in the cupboard, which is only failing to play because the 1958 reed isn't in the best condition.
I'm really so glad that the Clarinet BBoard and YouTube lessons exist now. I think there must be many families who have a successful musician in this current generation because of it, where such musical success could only have been a family pipe dream before. Yay!
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-08-17 01:06
I've been Mr. Simple my whole playing career.
Storing reeds short term (ie. I'll use it again in a day, 2 or 3)--
I rinse them thoroughly under the cold water tap after playing and put them in plastic reed holders. I periodically (every 6 hours?) keep them moist so warps don't occur.
Long term--
Same process except it doesn't matter if they go into the reed holder wet or dry, they will warp either way. I tend not to use these reeds again anyway for serious playing and simply take out a new one (2,3,4?)
Mold-- Only time I see this is if I've been using a reed well longer than I really should be. Generally, 2 weeks is the longest I'll use a reed for performing. Practicing is a different matter, though last 2-3 years I just use a Legere anyway.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-08-17 01:09)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-08-17 18:52
Thanks! That's really good to know. Do you really re-wet your reeds every 6 hours? That seems like a lot of work.
I've been reading the Legere threads, and I did buy one but it turned out not to be quite the right one. I haven't plucked up the courage to spend the money that would be needed to try the several strengths and possibly the alto sax legeres that would be needed to find the sweet spot for me. It does sound interesting though.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-08-18 01:09
Well, approx. every 6 hours. Maybe before I go to bed, then when I get up, etc. Could be significantly longer at times. But, I only play for 7 weeks in the summer.
I have been told keeping a reed always moist may shorten it's life span, which may well be true. Then again, letting it dry out then having to repeatedly remove warps doesn't do it any good either, and reeds with warping don't work well at all.
Legere-- I bought one years ago which was too hard and ruined it trying to shave it down like a wood reed. Don't do that! They told me in the store to buy one that's 1/2 strength softer that my wood strength, and this one worked fine (2.5 years now). I would never use it at concerts and rehearsals-- just not good enough. But there are more than one brand of plastic reeds out there.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-08-18 01:11)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-08-18 01:14
So.........Legere.
First off, don't forget about Amazon. They are a mega-corporation that takes ANYTHING back for full refund (and takes the loss). Go through the grind of finding the right strength through them.
What you want to do is start with a strength that is the WEAKEST that plays ok. That one will eventually seem to collapse (become to weak to get a sound) after a few hours or even a day or two. Then you move up a quarter strength, and do that again. Keep that going until you find the strength that plays continuously without giving out........all the time trying NOT to move up in strength unless you have to.
So buy a bunch in quarter strength increments and "go to town."
That said, the very best are the European Signature Bb clarinet reeds. The next best are the SOPRANO Saxophone Signature reeds......which are shorter in length and have a bit more bit but lose some of the projection. At first look they seem as though they are too wide. This is not the case in practice unless you use the Vandoren M/O ligature, then yes, they are too wide to fit the designated groove for cane Bb clarinet reeds.
Also, for the Soprano Saxophone Signature reeds, you'll need to try anywhere from a quarter strength softer up to three quarters strength softer (they are actually harder than the European Signature reeds of the same number strength).
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2020-08-18 06:04
Any competent woodworker will tell you that, if a piece of wood is going to warp, it's going to warp.
Many complex things can be done to try to keep this from happening or to fix it once it does, but most either don't work or don't last.
Solution: If a reed is warped after moistening or whatever, pitch it. Life is too short to agonize over stuff like this.
B.
Post Edited (2020-08-18 06:26)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-08-18 14:48
Thanks, it's really good again to realise that there isn't one simple answer, and that I've just to get on and do my best. :-)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-08-18 19:44
bmcgar wrote:
> Any competent woodworker will tell you that, if a piece of wood
> is going to warp, it's going to warp.
>
I'm not sure, though, that the likelihood of warping can't be increased by the environment the wood is stored in.
> Solution: If a reed is warped after moistening or whatever, pitch it.
> Life is too short to agonize over stuff like this.
Agreed!! Once a reed has warped (not the tip crinkling you can get when you first wet a reed), forget it and go on to another.
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-08-19 01:10
There is a method of taking out the warps, which I have often mentioned. Using a wet reed, a finger and your thumb, and the mouthpiece facing. How many times you can do this without the reed konking out for good is the question.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-08-19 01:11)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-08-19 02:16
Tom H wrote:
> There is a method of taking out the warps, which I have often
> mentioned. Using a wet reed, a finger and your thumb, and the
> mouthpiece facing. How many times you can do this without the
> reed konking out for good is the question.
>
But you're talking about the waviness - "crinkling" - that happens to the tip of a reed when it's first moistened after one or two uses. Most reeds do this. If you're patient, it will straighten itself out as the moisture distributes itself throughout the tip area. Most of us probably do what you describe - "ironing" the tip, pressing and massaging it against a flat surface like the mouthpiece table or a reed glass. I think you can probably do this indefinitely until the reed "konks out" from other causes.
A truly warped reed becomes curved in a convex shape down the length of the reed, so that when you place the reed on a flat glass it rocks or rolls from side to side because the edges aren't in contact with the surface. When you put it on the mouthpiece and tighten the ligature, you can't get a suction to form against the facing because the edges aren't in good contact with the table. That, too, can be dealt with, but rarely in my experience with a lot of success. And if the reeds are well cared for, it doesn't happen very often.
Karl
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-08-19 04:53
kdk, Yes you are correct. By warping I mean as you say the waviness or crinkling. I think I know what you mean by a reed truly being warped through it's whole length. I MAY have seen this over my entire playing life, but honestly can't recall a time.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2020-08-19 04:53)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-08-19 07:03
Most of the warp that I have experienced is a longitudinal concavity to the flat side of the reed (sort of a cupping effect so that on a flat piece of glass, the tip and the butt make contact but the center rises up slightly). Even being aggressive with ligature tightness does not help the tip being closer than it should.
My experience.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2020-08-19 17:15
My experience with reed warping is as Karl describes. Wrinkling of the reed tip goes away with moisture distribution, and is NOT reed warping. When a reed warps, the flat side of the reed becomes concave, and rocks from side to side on glass. (Easier to see if the reed is wet, and you look from the opposite side of the glass as you try to rock the reed.) This results in a less-responsive, often fuzzy-sounding reed.
You can reflatten it with a reed knife, Reed Geek or sandpaper on glass, or (as bmcgar suggests) pitch it. (Note: Yes, I am also a woodworker.)
Steve
Amateur musician, retired physician
Delaware Valley Wind Symphony, clarinet 1
Bucks County Symphony Orchestra, clarinet 2 (sub)
Post Edited (2020-08-19 17:17)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-08-19 17:25
Check out my website and read the articles about reeds, especially the one about playing "dry". That doesn't actually mean dry but never soak and do everything possible not to let the reed go from wet to completely dry because as someone else stated, ALL WOOD WILL WARP once it gets wet and dries. I formulated my practice when I was making my own reeds and learned that the more you soaked a reed the more likely and quickly it will warp and not seal on the facing of the mouthpiece. I convinced many players, including some in my section years ago who used to have their reeds sitting in water during rehearsals. Their warp problems diminished greatly. Check out the articles, you have nothing to lose, its all free. By the way, having a reed sit on flat glass does nothing at all to prevent warping, you would need a thousand pounds of pressure to keep it flat and would still warp soon after going wet to dry a few times. The sooner the reed dries the better, the reason to wipe of excess moisture and let it sit vamp down, not flat. Of course you can't do that when putting it back in a reed case.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-08-19 22:43
Agreed, never put wet reeds in a plastic bag. Expect mold. As we all know mold can get us pretty sick.
I've never been into rotations of reeds, such as playing a reed one day and letting it rest for a week or 2 and during this time you are playing and rotating other reeds. I like wetting reeds, surely not soaking them. The fibers swell up too much if you soak the reeds.
If the weather is decent I might just play on a reed and leave it on the mouthpiece so the reed forms to the mouthpiece. The great Mitchell Lurie and Iggie Gennusa did the same, but somehow Mitchell could play on a reed for a year. Yep just 1 reed.
I've been making reeds most of my life and I tend to adjust them a bit, but I hardly ever touch the spine, the center area of the reed and when I sand the bottoms of reeds to flatten them a bit I don't sand the tip areas. If the tips get too thin you might start to squeak. The side rails get too then.
I might be good at reeds but for me if I rotate reeds and the weather changes such as this week in the Los Angeles/Burbank California area you might find the reeds you rotate just don't work anymore. The temperature here went from the high and dry 80's to 114 degrees yesterday, with a few thunderstorms in the mountains, so the humidity is also up a lot. No, I did not changed reeds. If you leave the reed on the mouthpiece and you play everyday day, the reed won't get that dried out and it will hold in the moisture.
Yes we all have weird ideas of how to adjust reeds and get them to play. I think every player needs to be able to adjust reeds. And every reed should be adjusted when wet, not soaked. I spend most of my time adjusting the rails.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-08-20 17:12
If you reed my website about reeds you will discover my principal about NEVER EVER allowing the bottom half of the reed to get wet to avoid the reed from warping, meaning sealing on the facing not about the tip which is defferent. If the bottom half, the bark half, never gets wet it will help prevent the rest of the reed from warping and prevent it from leaking by not sealing flat on the facing. That's what causes delayed attacks and squeaks.. Don't agree, that's fine but it works.
I used to leave my reed on my bass clarinet and not rotate as Gennusa did but would take it off, wipe it and the mouthpiece and place it back on with the ligature secure but NOT tight. I used the same bass reed for several months for all rehearsals and concerts but practiced on my others. I had one reed last about 8 months making slight adutments once in a while. I always had at least four other reeds broken in and ready to go that I would practice on and keep ready to replace my "best" one at any time if needed. I preferred to rotate my clarinet reeds but not like Bob described. I would usually have eight in my reed case and always kept the case in a air tight plastic bag, never had mold, so I had decent reeds or all associations since I played in the orchestra and did a lot of chamber music and recitals as well. If one began to falter I'd replace it with one that I was constantly breaking in as describe in my reed pages. Each to their own, what ever works for you but don't be afraid to experiment and try new ideas. That's how I learned to do what worked for me, very successfuly I might add.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: mihalis
Date: 2020-08-21 03:15
Eddie I absolutely agree with you. I use the same procedure
for a long time, and it seems to work for me.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-08-21 16:20
Hi,
Thank you for all of this really useful advice.
I hadn't realised that soaking reeds and going from wet to dry repeatedly was a bad idea. It's great to know that. I'll try keeping my reed on the mp as well.
My teacher said this week that I should tighten my embouchure rather than sand down the reed, and that made a huge difference to the sound too. I hadn't realised that the muscles of my embouchure had developed to the point where I could just do that.
Thank you all for taking the time to write all these comments. It's really so extremely helpful.
Jen
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-08-22 00:57
..."My teacher said this week that I should tighten my embouchure rather than sand down the reed, and that made a huge difference to the sound too. I hadn't realised that the muscles of my embouchure had developed to the point where I could just do that."
I may disagree a bit with your teacher, mainly having a tight embouchure. Yes it needs to be firm without biting. As for thinning the reeds by sanding the bottom I again have mixed feelings, because the tips can get too thin. I only sand the bottoms if the reeds are badly warped. A tiny bit of warping is ok in my opinion. The reeds sometimes form better to the mouthpiece.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-08-22 01:00
Bob, I agree about the embouchure. Not sure about the warps. I don't like any warps.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
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The Clarinet Pages
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