 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2020-07-24 20:04
My former teacher (who had been a professional clarinettist) never particularly emphasised tonguing and didn't seem to mind whether I tongued or not. I have now changed teacher who is helping me with rhythm, accompanying me on the piano and so on.(She is not addressing the clarinet side of things). She is a bassoonist as well as a pianist. She is always calling me out for not tonguing enough. I am confused. When must I tongue? When is it optional? I don't have any problems with the mechanics of it, I am just unsure as to how much I should do it. Teacher A had very much a classical style, she would bawl me out for playing too loudly or ' coarsely'. She also let drop once that people felt she didn't play jazz appropriately. Is this the difference? Teacher A wanted a beautiful legato sound, Teacher B is more concerned with achieving certain effects?
Any ideas very welcome! (and a checklist of when not tonguing is not an option!).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-24 22:09
The basic idea behind tonguing is twofold. The primary use for wind instruments is to aid in the initiation of the sound. Without the tongue there is a tendency for the note to begin "less defined" or fuzzy.
The other reason for tonguing is to aid separation of notes (particularly in faster passages) so that the notes sound more like pizzicato on the violin.
That said there really is only ONE thing that the tongue does in relation to the reed. It prevents the reed from vibrating when you place the tongue on the reed. The most precise technique for tonguing efficiently is to place the very tip of the tongue upon the very tip of the reed. For visualization purposes, if you where to draw a dot at the very tip of your reed right at the very center, that is the point where you place the very tip of your tongue.
To practice this you should start off very slowly so that you feel what you are doing as deliberately as possible. Start a note (middle "G"......second line of staff is a good one to use) then slowly bring your tongue up to it and upon it until it STOPS producing a sound (as you keep blowing). The only tricky part here is that at first this will "tickle" your tongue with a buzzing sensation. This will go away after about a week of doing this over and over.
Once the sound has been stopped (while you continue blowing) you then release your tongue quickly (physically just far enough to release the reed). THAT release action IS TONGUING.
Always think of tonguing as the RELEASE of your tongue from the reed.
The reason for that is because no amount of extra effort in applying the tongue (besides what you have found to be necessary) will have any effect on your playing other than generating further effort that is completely unnecessary. I say this because often some folks will say that you need to tongue harder for a more punctuation, but what really gives you more "point" is more air in those circumstances, or leaving your tongue on the reed longer, or both.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2020-07-24 22:50
Hello Maruja,
"I don't have any problems with the mechanics of it, I am just unsure as to how much I should do it."
So clearly you don't need an explanation of the mechanics.
What genre of music are you playing? Are you playing from written music or just off of lead sheets? I have found that, almost universally, the orchestral, band, and commercial music that I play has articulation markings in the music. About the only time I have seen music not written this way is when playing off of lead sheets, when articulation is left entirely up to the discretion of the performer.
Are you talking about interpreting articulation markings written in the music or deciding what articulations to use when playing by ear or of lead sheet type notation?
John
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Author: kchan ★2017
Date: 2020-07-24 23:17
Its been years since I've was in a music history class so take this with a grain of salt, but in the past say up to Mozart's time and even a bit after articulations in scores were not always notated but left up to the performer. Much of what you may play today in etude books, ensemble music, etc. have been edited to include articulation. So playing the articulation on the page is somewhat definitive and a good starting place.
Being taught by someone that has a direct physical experience of the mechanics of the instrument that you're trying to master would bring into play those experiences and in turn be factored into your instruction. It could be that at that time, at that lesson, there were other more important fish to fry (at that time) than how to articulate or when.
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2020-07-24 23:36
It’s mostly about “articulating” the music (like speaking). You need to say what you and the music are trying to communicate clearly. You can’t mumble all the time, and you can’t sound like a typewriter. Make clear and distinct “phrases“ and “syllables”. Sometimes you have to make things more distinct that you feel necessary. You know how the piece goes, the listener doesn’t. Imagine reading from a book out loud in public. In general, the more modern the composer the more literally you should observe the notation.
If your current teacher is accompanying you, it may be necessary for you to tongue more often , and more distinctly, because you are playing together. Even the room can require a change. It’s like speaking in in a noisy crowd, or outside. You need to be heard clearly. As the soloist you also have to communicate to your accompanist what you want. “I’m slowing down.” “I’m playing staccato.” Etc.
Listen carefully to some classical or jazz recordings you like and you will find that great players are always creating distinctions. Loud, soft. Sharp, smooth. Short, long. Etc. You don’t really hear them at first because it’s not done own sake, but they make the music sound musical. Listen to Ella Fitzgerald or Nat King Cole - they’re the best.
Lots of teachers have different opinions about things, and they’re just different. Take the best from each. For the most part follow your current teacher, because they can help you understand, but there may be situations where you can apply what your other teacher said.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-07-24 23:51
Maruja wrote:
> My former teacher (who had been a professional clarinettist)
> never particularly emphasised tonguing and didn't seem to mind
> whether I tongued or not.
Does this mean you slurred everything, or does it mean that when you separated notes or started new phrases you did it with your breath instead of using your tongue?
If you're asking when tonguing is appropriate and slurring isn't, the most basic rule would be to do what the printed music says to do if it's a style of music that includes legato (slur) and staccato (separated) markings. If you're playing generic songs (folk songs, pop tunes, jazz) that usually don't indicate tonguing or slurring, it really is optional. If it's music with a lyric, you might follow the syllables of the lyric.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-07-25 17:39
I was going to ask the same question as Jonh asked, what genre of music are you speaking of? I only deal with "classicial" music and with the exception of the early classics like Mozart, composers wrote in the articulations they wanted and one should respect that when possible. The Mozart Concerto editions are all different in that respect because his manuscript are said not have many articulations in it so every edition and every player uses their own believes and preference. My first "famous" teacher, Eric Simon, well known years ago for his editions of a good deal of clalrinet music. When I studied the Mozart with him I asked him how do different players decide to tongue more or less passages. He told me his edition which we used is his recommendations and that if a player has a very fast tongue they can tongue more passages if they determine. He just emphasized to use good taste. I don't know if this helps you but good taste is always the way to go.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2020-07-25 21:57
Thanks for your reply Karl. Yes, to your questions - I would slur most passages and start off with air rather than tonguing the note...
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-07-25 22:12
Maruja wrote:
> Thanks for your reply Karl. Yes, to your questions - I would
> slur most passages and start off with air rather than tonguing
> the note...
So, to deal with starting off first, you get a much clearer, cleaner beginning to any note if you start it with your tongue - not very differently from the way you start the word "done." You say you're OK with the mechanics, so I'll just say that, except for rare, very soft entrances when you want the effect of just appearing out of nothing, classically trained players begin an entry note with the tongue. (I once heard a masterclass, or maybe read an article, by Marcellus in which he said even those soft attacks should be tongued - that you should never start with just air - so those entrances are a matter of opinion).
As to articulating within a phrase, I'd just repeat (echoing Ed P) that, where the style includes a composer's articulation markings, the most basic rule would be to do what the printed music says to do. If notes are slurred, start the first note with your tongue and connect the rest of the notes under slur without tonguing or separating them. If there's no slur, assume they're meant to be tongued.
Changing what's printed for personal artistic reasons will not cause you to be struck down by lightening or some dead composer's wrath, but the choice should be deliberate.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-25 22:48
First I would like to appologize for the earlier treatise that may not have been necessary. I read the post more as overarching problem and felt that definition may have been necessary.
I wanted to add that Karl Leister asserted in some of his master classes the beauty and (dare I say) necessity of starting some notes WITHOUT the tongue. I recall specifically a notable loud, chalumeau note on the first page of the Brahms Sonata in F. If you think about it, singers starting on vowels don't have a clear point at the beginning of those notes either.
So I think it is a matter of realizing that tonguing and not tonguing are two different types of "sounds" that you can use to add variety to anything you play. Honestly, besides LOUDER/SOFTER; FASTER/SLOWER; and SHORTER/LONGER, there are not too many more options in our musical tool belt.
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-07-25 23:28)
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2020-07-27 14:10
Thank you everyone. Karl, I take it then that the default articulation is tongued, unless within a slur or marked otherwise by the editor, composer. That is very helpful.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-07-27 16:50
Maruja wrote:
> Karl, I take it then that the default
> articulation is tongued, unless within a slur or marked
> otherwise by the editor, composer.
Yes, in music genres where articulation markings are included. And, especially, in ensemble music (e.g. band music) where the entire section wants to produce a unified result.
Karl
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2020-07-27 22:25
Just one last question Karl, as I see you have written a long post re. Legere reeds. I have just bought a couple as a result of watching the video produced by Michele Anderson and a rep. of Legere. She said she took about a month to adapt to the synthetic reeds. I wondered whether you felt one might change the embouchure - I have used them before and then went back to cane and then thought I would have another go, following Michele's advice. I have found using a tighter embouchure makes a much better sound than before - would you say that one should adapt the embouchure as well as, for instance, making sure the reed is well placed and so on...? I know this is off topic but I thought I might just ask a supplementary..
Many thanks for your interest and help. I am always staggered at how much more experienced clarinettists are willing to help those who are less so...
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-07-27 23:15
Maruja wrote:
> I have just bought a couple as a result
> of watching the video produced by Michele Anderson and a rep.
> of Legere. She said she took about a month to adapt to the
> synthetic reeds. I wondered whether you felt one might change
> the embouchure - I have used them before and then went back to
> cane and then thought I would have another go, following
> Michele's advice. I have found using a tighter embouchure makes
> a much better sound than before - would you say that one should
> adapt the embouchure as well as, for instance, making sure the
> reed is well placed and so on...?
Understand that at this point we're moving firmly into the realm of opinion. I'm not sure which of my posts about Legeres you mean, but my attitude toward them (like yours) has changed back and forth a few times. The short answer is that I've found that I *need* to use a firmer embouchure to keep Legeres focused and in tune. And it did take a week or two of playing on them to get used to the feel. There were also a couple of fairly trivial complaints I had that were more irritants than real problems.
My current attitude is that I don't want to have to use the extra pressure. I played Legeres exclusively for a little over a year. I've have come back to cane because the right cane reed - the profile and strength that best suits the mouthpiece I'm using - sounds better to me with less effort. I still find Legeres useful in situations where the alternative is a possibly dried out reed in a quick instrument change, but otherwise, I prefer cane. But, again, that's personal prejudice. If there weren't a lot of players using Legeres, the company couldn't afford to stay in business.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-28 00:38
I'm not sure which Legere's you guys are discussing. The Bb Signature reed is worthless in my opinion, however the European Signatures work amazingly well.
I also have no problem with a relaxed embouchure. It DOES take weeks, if not months, to hone in on the correct strength. For this process it is best to start as weak as you can get them to work ok, and see if they last through a session (couple of hours at least). If they collapse (just become too weak to play) within a week of constant play, then move up a quarter strength and start the process all over. Amazon still refunds anything so you might want to use them while you figure out your favorite strength. Once set, it's probably best to order through Woodwind Brasswind because they go through stock like crazy and you're guaranteed to get the latest batches from Legere that way.
All that said, more professional German players have luck with Legere (than US professional players) and they use very close facing mouthpieces. I also use a very closed French facing. So there may be a tendency for Legere to work better for closer facing mouthpieces, but I'd love to hear positive testimonials from those who use clearly more open mouthpieces (like the Black Diamond).
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2020-07-28 12:13
Thank you both for your input. I think I have enough information now to move onwards and upwards....
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2020-07-28 18:12
I think it's worth pointing out that 'tonguing' is not a one-dimensional thing, so that a note is either 'tongued' or 'not tongued'. (Excellent pianists similarly say that 'pedalling' is more than just 'is the pedal down?' versus 'is the pedal up?'.) It all defers to musical context.
To make it seemingly simple: do you 'tongue' the second bar of the Mozart concerto slow movement?
Well, yes; but there's so much more to say about these first two bars that affects how your tonguing works – or doesn't.
Think about it, try it, and then perhaps read what I and others wrote about it here.
The link doesn't mention tonguing explicitly, but you can see that HOW you interrupt the sound is crucial.
Tony
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2020-07-28 21:54
Thank you for the link which I found fascinating – especially the debate between 1234 and 2341 accentuation. As I understand it, there are certain rules (or conventions) in phrasing and how that affects tonguing, but these can be bent according to how the music presents itself. Much to ponder on, when interpretation moves beyond technical issues.
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2020-07-29 05:13
2 answer your question, u tongue when the music says 2 tongue - there's different kinds of articulations that the music calls 4
when I was in 7th grade, I was blessed with a fast tongue - so much that my band member called me turbo tongue
now there's different kinds of tonguing and the most familiar ind that I last was aware of is the collegiate pedagogical tonguing
I don't know if I was ever up 2 par with this with my fellow clarinetists because I played bass. I know I was up 2 speed on the bass because I could tongue "Rolling Thunder" which is a circus march.
So if u're wanting 2 get that kind of tonguing then I can further help u with that.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-07-29 08:35
What EbClarinet said. Your question is simple. Tongue when it says to tongue. Classical, jazz, no matter. If there is no slur, you tongue. Types of tonguing have been well-explained above. Staccato, legato, etc.
My professor when doing my Masters decades ago analyzed my tonguing and mentioned the release of the reed. My thoughts were I was taught to just say "ta", so the attack created the tonguing. No matter. He said I tongued faster than he did.
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Post Edited (2020-07-29 08:36)
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