 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2020-06-29 01:34
I'm looking at buying a used LeBlanc LL Clarinet.
When doing a search on the LL I've noticed that it was thought that many of these LL's coming from France to the US were reamed to improve the Horn for reasons I don't fully understand.
The " reamed "Section is presumably the UJ.
My question is this ... on the Horn I'm looking to buy it has a metal Ring on the top tenon of the upper joint.
I'm not a rocket scientist, but how could you ream the top section if its got a metal band on the offending tenon?
My guess is if they were reaming these LL's it would not be the ones with metal tenons
Just curious
Post Edited (2020-06-29 01:39)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2020-06-29 02:57
I've followed this thread for awhile. Most, if not all of the discussion, has centered on the L200 (one of which I own, but not reamed, I think!) I don't think there's been any suggestion of the LL having received similar treatment.
Looking at the later replies, it looks like the problem was more widespread than I remembered.
Post Edited (2020-06-30 03:10)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2020-06-29 08:26
Lee Gibson wrote about this (around 1984 I think) in relation to the LX model, I can quote the exact article/words later tonight. I recall he wrote in a way suggesting it had happened to previous models- I'll look it up when I get home (I THINK it was in the Benny Goodman memorial issue of "The Clarinet")
dn
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2020-07-02 11:02
Here is the info from the Lee Gibson column "Clarinalysis" from The Clarinet- Volume 14 No 1, Fall 1986
"Leblanc-Kenosha has apparently believed that it is frequently desirable to rebore the interiors of clarinets after they have been brought to this country and their dimensions have stabilized in our generally warmer and drier climate. This writer recently measured several Leblanc LX soprano Bb clarinets, which have been advertised as having a bore of 14.6mm, at an actual bore of about 14.73mm at their smallest (above the center joint). The LX A that I measured was actually sized at 14.6mm, and, as it happened, the latter instrument impressed me as an extraordinarily fine one."
So no mention of LL being rebored. I don't know of another reference to this outside of "urban myth", and don't know the source of Gibson's information (other than his measuring of clarinets).
dn
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2020-07-14 20:00
From the late Sherman Friedlander's Clarinet Corner. From the horse's mouth to the horse's mouth, so to say:
"I have it from the source of Tom Ridenour that Vito Pascucci, the
head of Leblanc USA, when Tom Ridenour was their chief clarinet designer, had many Leblanc clarinets rebored to a larger diameter in a somewhat routine manner, until Tom stopped him. This is absolutely true and many players have purchased these horns, rebored without care for anything except making a “so-called” bigger sound from the bigger bore. It is no longer an issue because Leblanc Clarinet as a USA company is no more, rather it is part of Conn-Selmer. But the vintage horns of the Leblanc are all somewhat suspect and if rebored, can have manifold intonation problems. So, be forewarned. Here is a response from Tom himself concerned with this article:
“Well, what you say is true, but here are some important addendums:
Large bore clarinets were largely abandoned by pro clarinetists in the last half of the 20th century because of low register right hand sharpness. Small bores were chosen because the 12ths were truer, especially in the right hand of the clarinet. Mr. Leblanc had designed small bore clarinets and they tuned up to the state of the art. Vito, with the dumb idea that the bores would shrink from France to Kenosha, and thinking that large bore clarinet
was fungible with the idea of large bore trumpet or brass instruments, took it upon himself to rebore these clarinets to make sure they blew with a “big sound”. As his shop people enlarged 14.65 bore clarinets to 15.00mm bore clarinets, he was unaware he was destroying the tuning of the 12ths, especially the right hand 12ths, making the right hand low register as much as 30 cents sharp to the rest of the horn. Vito, not understanding clarinet acoustics, thought the switch to small bore clarinets was just fashion and personal taste and that someday the “fashion” would swing back the other way. He was wrong; the switch came about because of higher demands for tuning perfection. And that, not subjective taste or fashion, ushered in the age of the small bore clarinet, especially since bore modifcations had made them tonally viable and equal to their large bore counterparts. I stopped the boring because good horns that played great and tuned very well were being systematically destroyed by energetic ignorance and wrong-headedness. There you go; straight from the horses mouth.”"
Full article can still be found online at:
https://clarinetcorner.wordpress.com/2008/09/01/its-really-a-big-bore/
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-14 23:02
Good work, Ken. I also found description by Tom how to identify a "rebored" clarinet.
"According to Tom Ridenour, who was then the chief designer for Leblanc, “they had no idea of how to rebore a clarinet, using mostly the incorrect reamers and scarring the bore, and ruining the intonation of the horns” There are still many of these old leblancs around. Just look in your bore. If it is visibly scarred, you may have a problem."
https://clarinetcorner.wordpress.com/2012/08/08/a-pair-of-leblanc-clarinets/
An actual instrument would be the ultimate proof. They should exist.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2020-07-15 19:00
Well, the clarinet I actually bought was a LeBlanc L7 not an LL.
It sounds quite nice, and to my ear I can't detect any notes that seem to be way off.
I took a measurement of the exit Hole of the US and it was 14.8.
So maybe this was not one of the suspect reamed Horns, as I get the impression the Horns were reamed to 15.
It does look a little rough on the inside, but not excessively so.
My repair Lady has it and is adjusting the keys and I should have it back this Afternoon
I guess my question is what was the UJ measurement for an untampered L7's?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-16 00:35
My L7, with serial around 33000, which I bought 2nd hand in Europe, is 14.83 mm at the top of the upper joint and 14.70 at the bottom.
Post Edited (2020-07-16 00:36)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ben Shaffer
Date: 2020-07-16 00:52
Got the Clarinet back. key action is very good.
The Clarinet sounds delightful
I measured the exit hole of the top joint prior to playing and it measured at 15mm, after playing it measured 14.9
I switched out the wood barrel that came with the L7 with a Backun Blackwood barrel and no surprise it sounds better
Post Edited (2020-07-16 00:58)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Peacock
Date: 2020-07-16 01:46
I have an L7, which seems bigger than Johan Nilsson's: 14.99 at the top and 14.83 at the bottom.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-16 13:27
John Peacock wrote:
> I have an L7, which seems bigger than Johan Nilsson's: 14.99 at
> the top and 14.83 at the bottom.
Which approximate serial? Bought from the US?
The L7 was made for quite a long time and have serials from around 28000 (1968) to 46000 (1977).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2020-07-16 13:36
A 0.10 mm difference can come from the wood swelling or drying. I have seen that magnitude of change on a single instrument from one year to another. Wood quality probably plays a role for how much the dimension changes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
