 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2020-05-05 19:43
Hi all,
I hope this finds you well during these troublesome times.
My tech asked if I could help find pictures of the register key and the lever that activates the neck cup, of what we believe is a Selmer 33 Bass, serial A9XXX (circa 1978?).
There was some questionable work done to it over the years and he needs some reference. This would help us a lot.
All the best and keep safe and healthy,
Erez
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2020-05-05 20:17
I have a model 32 of that same vintage. See the attached. Did not work. I'll try again
HRL
Post Edited (2020-05-05 20:19)
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2020-05-05 21:33
Hi Erez, please send me your email address via PM. I have something for you that could be helpful.
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2020-05-05 22:21
Hank and Tim.
Thank you for reaching out, I sent you private messages via email.
Post Edited (2020-05-05 22:34)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2020-05-05 23:21
Yeah that key arm looks nasty, looks like it may have been modified to take a newer bass clarinet neck.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-05-06 00:26
Yeah, that work looks awful. I agree with jdbassplayer that it looks like a previous owner wanted to use a newer neck. I thought about it for a second for my 33 because I like the newer angle a bit more, but backed off from that idea pretty quickly because all paths seemed to lead...somewhere a lot like this!
I suppose it theoretically could work if the new necks have appropriate dimensions and the arm moves the right distance to open the register vent on the neck. If those are all true and it actually makes the instrument better for the player, I can't say the entirely a bad one.
It seems like fairly horrendous execution, though. I certainly am not precious about "original condition" when it comes to modifying my instrument to work better for me, but if I were having something like this done, I'd take the instrument to someone who knew what they were doing and would take some pride in the work.
I say, while looking over at my bass clarinet sitting on its stand with thumb key extensions made of plumber's epoxy that look like they were made for Fred Flinstone...
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-05-06 09:01
Or it was just broken off, since this arm is pretty susceptible to "player bumping it against things", and/or there was a problem with the original soldering, etc.
If it's working fine but only looks ugly, it might have been made the best abilities of whoever did it, or they needed to do it the cheapest quickest way possible for whatever reason.
If it's not working well, it was probably also done to the best abilities of whoever did it...
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Author: kilo
Date: 2020-05-06 16:38
When did Selmer start putting the wider saxophone style thumb piece on the register key? The key on my 33 is narrower, as you'd see on a soprano clarinet.
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Author: JEG ★2017
Date: 2020-05-06 23:17
My 1971 Model 33 has the same configuration as the OP's. My serial # is W49xx. I had a friend who had a Model 33, serial # W19xx that had the configuration shown in the photos from Hank Lehrer. So Selmer changed sometime between those two instruments.
I am the original owner and have had the instrument well-maintained over the years. Needless to say, you should find a tech who really knows what he/she is doing.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-05-06 23:24
kilo, how old is your 33? I am going from memory here, but I used to play a Selmer low C bass in college (University-owned) that was from the 60's and it had a register key similar to Selmer saxophones. I remember it being more or less the same register key as the ca. 1981 33 I own now. That instrument was stamped "Mazzeo Model", though, so I suppose that one could have been different from other contemporary models.
What does your register key look like?
Based on what I've seen on here over the years, it seems like Selmer's development of bass clarinets wasn't quite linear, especially before the mid-80's. Every time someone definitively states that "X feature was introduced/discontinued in Y year", someone else chimes in with "I'm holding an instrument from 3 years before that and it has X feature!" or "they must not have gotten rid of it in Y because my horn from (Y + 3) has X feature!"
I suppose it's a pretty low-volume item. Were/are they made to order? Does anyone have insight into how customizable they were back then? Or is this just a matter of Selmer using the parts they had kicking around and customers just getting what they got? I've seen older catalogs but I'm still not positive what the ordering process was and there's rarely any detail about things like key shapes or configurations.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-07 00:40
Attachment: P5210001.JPG (711k)
Attachment: P5210003.JPG (675k)
Attachment: P5210004.JPG (687k)
Attachment: P5210005.JPG (679k)
Attachment: P5210006.JPG (704k)
I've got an X prefix serial number low C bass in for a full overhaul and that is still in original condition but worse for wear. Attached are some photos of the speaker mechanism crook key shift lever (fingers crossed they will attach).
It has the MkVI-style speaker key touch that's mounted to the left of the thumbplate instead of the lever style one with either the teardrop or dolphin pectoral fin-shaped touch, but there's a lot of excessive wear in the rocker which I'll be addressing in due course.
As for the lower joint, the low D, Db/C# and C thumb keys aren't linked to the rest of the mechanism, so low Eb has to be held down in order to get those notes (as on Leblanc low C basses). There's no LH low D lever either.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-05-07 01:50)
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2020-05-07 15:02
Thank you Chris!
Very much appreciated.
For some reason, the register touch piece was raised almost a full centimeter.
The keywork is nickel plated, I was wondering if I am correct identifying it as 33. I tried to add a few more pictures but got an error...
Post Edited (2020-05-07 15:14)
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2020-05-07 15:15
I will try to upload to another service and include a link.
What is the forum link tag?
Post Edited (2020-05-07 15:17)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2020-05-07 18:19
Attachment: Register key.JPG (1298k)
Max S-D:
Quote:
What does your register key look like?
This 33's serial number is S361X. It has the "Series 9" label.
Post Edited (2020-05-07 21:14)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2020-05-07 18:19
That neck looks like it might be from a Selmer model 37 bass clarinet. Is it silver plated?
-JDbassplayer
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2020-05-07 21:11
It looks like Nickel to me.
Same color as the bell and keywork as far as I can tell, but my tech might be able to confirm.
Good point to look.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-07 23:07
Attachment: P5210001.JPG (671k)
Attachment: P5210002.JPG (676k)
Attachment: P5210003.JPG (681k)
Attached are some photos of the crook key on this unadulterated X series bass.
Excuse the blurry photos - it's difficult to tell if it's in focus or not going by the small screen on my crappy camera, but you still get the idea.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-05-08 01:01)
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2020-05-08 00:38
Jdbassplayer, i think you are correct.
Looking at photos of 33 and 37 necks, the 37 speaker lever has an upside down 'T' like bar that meets an 'I' , parallel to the body, whereas the 33 speaker is straight and the register lever coming from the body is upside down 'L' shaped.
So this modified instrument was most likely made to fit a newer neck. I will speak again over that with the seller
I wonder if there is an acoustical difference between a 33 and 37 neck, such as size or hole position, besides functional differences.
Anyway - good find!
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Author: JEG ★2017
Date: 2020-05-08 01:22
In answer to Max S-D's question, I remember the catalog specified the Model 33 as Special Order.
My instrument (W49xx) is the standard Model 33 from 1971. I had a friend who ordered a custom Model 33 at about the same time I ordered mine, with articulated B-C# ("Can't play Daphnis without it") and left hand low e-flat and silver plating. It seems that Felix Viscuglia of the Boston Symphony had one (we were both students in Boston). To make a long and already-told story short, a few weeks later he was told by the music store that his bass had arrived. As he didn't have a car at the time I drove him to their warehouse to pick it up. The bass that they had was the standard Model 33 bass so he didn't take it. Since I had ordered one, the store (Coffey Music) asked me if I wanted it. I took it and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. He didn't get his customized bass until the next year, if I remember correctly, and the sound and action weren't as good as mine.
A few months later Coffey Music informed me that my bass had come in. I let them know that I already had one, and not long after that another friend bought that. As Coffey had sent me the serial number (W19xx) I saw that my friend had bought it. It was older than mine and had the register key mechanism that I mentioned above.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-05-08 05:20
Everything in Chris P's photos matches my 1981 33 exactly, as far as I can tell.
Does an articulated B/C# allow one to play a long B without lifting the C# key?
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2020-05-08 13:24
Attachment: 20200508_122416.jpg (759k)
Chris,
Could I trouble you again and ask for a picture of the register key itself?
With the instrument at hand, the register key sticks up and has a considerable wide range of movement.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-08 20:01
Attachment: P5210001.JPG (679k)
Attachment: P5210006.JPG (691k)
Attachment: P5210004.JPG (676k)
Attachment: P5210005.JPG (684k)
Attachment: P5210003.JPG (676k)
Here you go.
I removed the linkage rod from the throat A key/RH3 to make it easier to see. This is still pretty much as it left the factory back in the '70s and chances are the left thumbplate could do with a bit more venting - I'll be fitting a cork pad in there in due course.
I'd personally set the relation of the speaker touchpiece to be comfortably higher than the thumbplate so you can roll your left thumb onto it easily. Then it'll be pretty much level with the thumbplate when both are held down together, just as they should be set up on modern saxes with the MkVI-style 8ve key (which is where this style speaker key touch has come directly from). The last thing you want is the speaker touch (or the 8ve key touch on saxes) going below the level of the left thumbplate as the edge of the thumbplate will dig into your thumb.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-08 20:16
Articulated C#/G# will allow a low register B-C# trill and upper F#-G# trill and any other tremolo involving any RH note and C#/Db/G#/Ab while the C#/G# key is held down.
A B-C#/F#-G# trill is done thus: xxxC#/G#|o+o (+ being the trilling finger).
There's a linkage arm from the C/G vent key barrel on the lower joint (the uppermost pad cup on the RH main action) and that closes the C#/G# pad cup when the C#/G# key is held down and any RH note is played.
Saxes and oboes have it as standard and it was optional on a lot of clarinets. Full Boehms have it as standard. Patricola fit it to some of their clarinets. Buffet Prestige basses have the C#/G# key split, but they don't have the linkage arm for the RH fingers to close the C#/G# pad cup, but that can be fitted.
The only Boehm system clarinets I know of that had a low E-F# or upper B-C# trill were on some Mazzeo systems where you could hold down the F#/C# key and trill with the E/B key on the opposite hand to do a true E-F# or B-C# trill as you can do on oboes and saxes - the F#/C# pad cup is automatically closed by the E/B key. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSamnhT6fQkz_PodeOr6MnSsujFSn4z_E0wxToa0JWnap39O87u&usqp=CAU
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-05-08 20:20)
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-05-08 21:16
Ahhh ok. For some reason my brain immediately jumped to the upper register. I have an articulated C#/G#.
An articulated low F#/C# would be handy, though obviously I am living fine without. I wonder if that old Mazzeo bass I played in college had that and I just didn't know.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-05-09 08:51
>> An articulated low F#/C# would be handy, though obviously I am living fine without. I wonder if that old Mazzeo bass I played in college had that and I just didn't know. <<
Why would it...?
For that, the F#/C# lever and key would have to be separated into two parts, which I don't remember seeing on any bass clarinet ever though I guess it might exist). That's before adding the linkage from the E/B key. Because of the direction of the hinge, it would open the key instead, so would need adding extra mechanism to reverse it probably. All of this adding even more flex and compromising adjustment of the lowest keys to close so many keys at the same time.
I guess it's not as bad on a low Eb bass, but most people who want all these extra gizmos usually want a low C bass anyway.
There are some other disadvantages to it too.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-05-09 09:47
clarnibass, I'm the one on SoTW with the heavily modified model 33. I think it's pretty clear I don't shy away from mechanical complexity in the name of incremental gains
An articulated C#/B would make all kinds of fast passages easier. Not having to time the L/R switch is a huge deal when playing fast. Can I play plenty fast while timing a L/R switch? Yes, obviously. I've done it for 21 years on the clarinet and bass clarinet. Would it be faster/easier to do faster without having to do the switch? Yes. No question whatsoever.
Of course, with the mods I've had done lately, the pinky keys on my bass clarinet have been adjusted annually for the last three years just because they've been disassembled and reassembled to make changes. Maybe I've lost touch with what's normal.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-05-09 10:50
>> An articulated C#/B would make all kinds of fast passages easier. <<
Sure, it's just worth mentioning the compromises that would come with it.
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-05-09 16:44
I play a 1935 Buffet bass, but with a neck from the 1990s (the intonation with the original neck is better, but I find the steeper angle of the modern neck to be way easier for me).
The register connection on the modern neck was not compatible, so I got someone to adjust the connection on the NECK, not the key on the upper joint. So I still have the option of using the older neck if I decide that's preferable.
Of course this means that the modern neck I have can't be used on a modern bass should I want to do so...
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-05-10 20:11
clarnibass, what's your opinion about an articulated C#/B on a soprano clarinet? Any disadvantages to it in your opinion?
Schwenk & Seggelke offers it as an option on their French fingered clarinets, as does Lohff & Pfeiffer as a retro fitment on clarinets of any make.
Post Edited (2020-05-10 20:33)
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-05-11 16:55
I don't know about the S+S retro fit, but I've seen a really cool articulated C#/G# mechanism that can be easily installed on a Boehm clarinet WITHOUT having to drill any new holes... (except for two postholes on the lower joint, but none that change the clarinet acoustically)
The downsides- none except... you can't do many of the common multiphonic fingerings (not a disadvantage for the majority of players but one I can't live with) and it prevents a few useful altissimo fingerings (long F, a useful high alt B flat and a very stable alt G fingering come to mind, there are surely others).
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-05-11 18:49
I was unclear, but I meant an articulated F#3/C#5 for a low E-F# or upper B-C# trill (where you hold down the F#/C# key and trill only with the E/B key). Such a mechanism is offered by S&S, as well as Lohff&Pfeiffer.
Speaking about an articulated C#4/G#5 mechanism (for a low register B-C# and upper F#-G# trill by holding down the C#/G# key while trilling only with your B/F# r.h. finger), there is also a lot simpler and in my mind smarter version on the top-of-the-line Reform-Boehm clarinets from Wurlitzer, Dietz, L&K and Harald Hüyng. On these the trill mechanism doesn't open the C#/G# pad, and the trill is done instead with the l.h. ring finger (thus changing between XXX|0X0 and XXO|0X0).
The tuning of the C#/G# isn't perfect with this fingering, but at least for me perfectly acceptable in a trill. A major advantage besides the simpler design is that it doesn't restrict any third register fingerings, such as the long F or F# (where the C#/G#-pad is open together with closed r.h. rings).
The only drawback I'm aware of is that an alternate E4 fingering as X0Xc#+d#|000 does not work - due to the open C#/G#-pad and the closed "extra" vent hole cup connected to the l.h. ring finger ring taking each other out. However, if the tuning of the E4 is good enough without such an alternate fingering, then this isn't a problem either .
To go even further off topic, I may add that Dietz has developed this mechanism a step further by the C#/G#-key operating independently from the l.h. ring finger ring and the vent hole cup connected to that ring (thus the curved C#/G#-key around that cup, seen on their 585-model). On the versions from the other makers that vent hole cup closes by depressing the C#/G#-key. Thus this key can't be used independently for altering the tuning of such notes as D#4, E4, A5 or C6 - since the closed vent hole and open C#/G#-hole more or less take each other out.
Post Edited (2020-05-11 20:27)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2020-05-12 00:45
About halfway down this page I posted a picture of the register key on my Series 9 (S361X) — it's the narrow style, as you'd see on a soprano. Does this help date the instrument? I'd assumed it was late '70s but it looks as if the wider sax-style touch was being used by then.
Any ideas why the "upside down L" speaker arm is so long on the 33's? I realize that some players might want to turn the neck further to the right but it seems longer than it would need to be, and that much more prone to get damaged. I believe it also requires stronger spring action.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-12 02:04
S36xx is from 1960 and at the start of the Series 9 run.
The touchpiece is a teardrop soldered on and probably the same teardrop used for the throat A and LH Ab/Eb touchpieces. A lot of the keywork pieces on a bass from that era will most likely be the same as the late CT-era basses until they got used up, then as time went on they changed other things here and there, starting with the soldered-on fin-shaped touchpiece replacing the teardrop on the end of the see-saw lever, then the entire speaker key redesigned with the touch mounted on a long rod. It's good to see how things progressed with the photos posted on here.
. . . .
On clarinets with articulated C#/G#, the standard long fingerings for altissimo F and Bb can't be used because of the RH fingers being held down. I use the short fingering for altissimo F so that's not a problem for me (Sp.Th. oxxC#/G#|oooAb/Eb), but the full fingering for altissimo Bb can still be done by taking the left thumb off the thumb tube instead of using the C#/G# key (Sp. xxx|xxxF/C)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-05-12 02:59)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-13 22:55
I'll publish a pad size and thickness chart for Series 9 and similar age low C basses in due course, so watch this space.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2020-05-14 12:38
That would be great, Chris! This BBoard is such a valuable resource.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-14 18:49
... scroll down
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-05-15 23:02)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-05-14 19:25
>> clarnibass, what's your opinion about an articulated C#/B on a soprano clarinet? Any disadvantages to it in your opinion? <<
Yes, definitely. Compared with bass you don't have all the issues from Eb and below having to close so many pads at the same time. OTOH, one of the nice things about regular clarinets is how simple they are. The F/C and E/B linkage is the only critical adjustment where two pads need to close "together" (the other - the bridge - is a little different in that sense). The keys are shorter and there's less flex, but possibly as much if not more difference in feel from other keys. This adjustment is also one of the most common to need repair, so this would increase it and make it more delicate. There are a few more small issues I'm not mentioning.
I'm not saying the advantages are not worth it. I wouldn't want it, but that's for anyone to decide themselves.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-15 23:01
Selmer low C bass X74xx (1973) leather pads.
Quantity, diameter and thickness (in millimetres):
1 x 9.0 x 3
1 x 10.5 x 3
4 x 14.0 x 3
8 x 16.0 x 3*
5 x 18.5 x 3 (with or without rivets)
1 x 22.0 x 4 (with rivet)
1 x 26.0 x 4 (with rivet)
9 x 27.5 x 4 (with rivets)
For low Eb basses, you'll only need 6 x 27.5mm pads.
*LH1 fingerplate has either a perforated leather or cork pad depending on your preference (I'd personally install a cork pad here and in some other top joint keys).
In essence, Selmer use leather clarinet pads for all the pads up to 20mm and sax pads for all pads over 20mm on their basses.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-05-16 14:06)
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2020-05-16 09:37
Thank you Chris for taking the time for this.
Much appreciated.
Erez
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-16 14:50
I thought for a moment I got the quantities wrong for the largest pads, then realised the Ab/Eb pad is smaller. I think on later ones all the pads from RH3 downwards are all the same diameter (as they are on late Series 9 soprano clarinets), but can't say for definite.
The screw slots in the rod screws must've been cut with the thinnest piercing saw blades ever made - only slightly wider than the thickness of a cigrarette paper. I've recut them all wider (and to the same depth) as I usually end up having to do so a normal screwdriver blade will fit them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2020-05-16 19:08)
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