 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2020-04-22 21:10
Attachment: Saint Saens Sonata 4a0001.pdf (827k)
Not being a "trained" musician, the carryover (or not) of accidentals confuses me. In the 4th movement of this Sonata, I have these two questions:
1) Measure 65: last 2 beats, are they F-naturals, or F-sharps (carried from measure 64)? See arrows
2) Measure 70: downbeat of 2, is it A-natural or A-flat (carried from measure 69)? See arrow
Thanks!
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Author: JohnP
Date: 2020-04-22 21:33
1) F naturals
2) A naturals The chord in the piano is E flat major here so Ab would sound wrong.
Accidentals don’t carry over into the next bar but in this case if you only look at the clarinet part you’d be forgiven for thinking the accidentals might have been left out by mistake. It would have been better if the publisher had put natural signs before those notes although strictly they’re not required. In fact in the piano part that is exactly what has been done in bar 70, the G has a natural before it in brackets to make it clear it’s not Gb as in the previous bar.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2020-04-22 21:41
I have to say I find unnecessary accidentals to be counterproductive rather than helpful. I know the rules and an unnecessary accidental is just confusing.
And yes, and accidental is only effective for the bar in which it is written. (Unless that note is tied over to the next bar)
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2020-04-23 00:09
John and Marcia:
Thanks for the pointers and for correcting my misconceptions on this!
(This is what happens when you play well enough to get into the school band, but only pick up theory in bits and pieces, some of them incorrect, over the course of 60 years!)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-04-23 00:56
It's been decades since I played this.
I agree naturals in both cases.
Agree that unnecessary accidentals are confusing. That's why we learn the rules.
I have no real problem with an unnecessary accidental added if it is in parenthesis, but prefer nothing at all.
Yes an accidental carries over if the note is tied to the next bar. What about that same note later in the bar? Logic says it still carries over, but I'm not sure. I've seen the accidental put in on occasions. What do you think?
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Post Edited (2020-04-23 00:57)
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Author: marcia
Date: 2020-04-23 05:08
A tied accidental carries over the to the tied note, but not to a subsequent note of the same pitch in that bar. I looked up this piece on IMSLP and noted that in the second movement there are a few places where a note with an accidental is tied to the next bar. There is an accidental on the tied over note, and a subsequent note of the same pitch in the bar--with no accidental. So the accidental is on the tied over note, not the subsequent note, in case this is getting confusing. I have not seen this before in all my many years of playing music This is the opposite of the conventional practise. Why do people do this?? ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2020-04-23 07:09
The rules are good, and they solve the questions asked in this case, but as has been pointed out in other threads over the years, the rules don't always get followed in print. For example, different practices can be found regarding accidentals carrying over to the same note in other octaves; as I recall someone listed examples. Also, accidentals are a major source of editing difficulties, from obvious errors to longstanding controversies. Sometimes the composer changes their mind and there's two versions. Sometimes theory imposes a change after years of established practice. Know the rules, but once in a while there's more to it.
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Author: JohnP
Date: 2020-04-23 12:18
Here’s an example of theoretically unnecessary accidentals, 3 and 5 bars after 5A, confusing or helpful?
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Author: JohnP
Date: 2020-04-23 12:24
Sorry the attachment didn’t work, don’t understand why not.
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