 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2020-01-16 04:38
Hello, looking for outside input on an issue regarding embouchure fatigue.
I'm a second year student in my studies as a Music Performance major. I'm extremely happy with my tone quality, and visually/aurally my embouchure, tongue position, and air support seem to be correct. However, playing through etudes or pieces without large periods of rest are a huge issue for me, even when I'm playing fresh for that day.
After around two minutes or so of playing through something like an etude or solo piece like the Hommage to Bach, my embouchure begins to profusely leak. If I continue playing through the piece, it starts to totally collapse (bunched chin, biting, etc.)
Playing multiple smaller sections (with rests in between) does not yield this problem.
Have any of you ever encountered an issue like this in yourself or your students? What did you do to tackle the problem?
Thanks
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2020-01-16 06:46
How much of your warm-up is long-tones or some other embouchure-strengthening exercise?
If the issue is purely a muscular one, that of needing to build stamina, you need to rest the moment you feel it occurring. You could take note of how much time it takes in each instance, and see if you are able to extend the duration over a couple of weeks.
(A separate issue is that you may be playing a needlessly resistant set up, and/or you may have a cosmetically "correct" embouchure but you may still be holding needless tension in its employment.)
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-01-16 07:45
What does your teacher say about it? You surely play etudes for him at your lessons? Do you take those rests in between sections then?
The most obvious possibility is that you're playing on too heavy reeds and have to exert more effort than your embouchure can sustain to produce the sound, regardless of how much you like the result.
There are other possibilities, but your teacher is closer than any of us to your playing and should have something to say about this.
Karl
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2020-01-16 08:34
It sounds like you are using too much effort. This is actually a common problem among clarinetists, even professionals. I’d suggest the same as others here to use a lighter reed. A common mistake I notice is clarinetists relying on their embouchure to shape and voice the sound while basically overblowing for the sound to come out. The embouchure should be relatively relaxed, acting only as a seal for the air. And IT IS THE AIR, that should be manipulated in an artistic way to make notes speak and shape the sound.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-01-16 09:04
What mouthpiece,tip opening, facing, and reeds are you using? I don't have an issue, play several hours a day when needed. 6 sometimes. Where is air leaking from? With most mouthpieces these days it's getting harder to find a mouthpiece around a closer facing. And I disagree with more open tip openings equals huge sounds. Just the opposite can happen.
fernie121 is right regarding his comments. Karl and Tobin offer very sound advice.
These days it's hard to find good closer tipped mouthpieces. You have to get them refaced.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-16 10:58
Despite the "visual appeal," your embouchure may still be at odds with itself. One big thing to look for is if the "corners" of your mouth go up. If so, you could be imposing all kinds of contradictory muscle actions to prevent leaking. Ideally your corners should pull back and down, yielding a "parrot like" appearance (not so appealing but pretty efficient and low strain).
Also, you'll find that if you take in mouthpiece just up to the point before you loose control of the sound, you require the least amount of "lateral" control from your embouchure (and get the added side benefit of really consistent control between notes of the largest intervals!).
Just some thoughts.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-01-18 02:22
When I was in college and playing tons of hours daily my lower lip was like steel. At one point while doing my Masters I developed a leak out the sides of my mouth. Several pros as well as my teacher had ideas on fixing it. Turned out I had slowly developed that problem over time--Think it had to do with listening to someone perform who was also "leaking". Turned out to be completely mental. Don't know if that's of help.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2020-01-19 02:30
Hope he responds. This is a very interesting subject. It's worth discussing in greater detail.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-01-19 10:32
Marc C or GBK, if the following is inappropriate, please delete.
Well, we all waited for 3 days and no response from the OP. I thought maybe I should wait a week. However, so much good advice has been given above and after reading Bob Bernardo’s response above, I couldn’t agree more that this is, indeed, an important topic to discuss.
Absence any response from Exiawolf, I decided to use the BB search function and see if I could find out a little bit more about him in hopes that that knowledge might give us all some ideas as to what is causing his problem.
After I inputed his name and clicked on search, I received 233 responses which included some Original Postings. Since there weren’t that many, I decided to read through them and summarize my findings.
Here they are:
2014/05/27 Plays Vandoren V12 at strength 3.5, sought advice on breaking in new reeds
2014/06/01 Wrote about hearing a metallic sound in his new Masters CL4, series 13; He reveals that he played a 5RV Lyre for the previous 4 years and did not have this problem. (So he has been playing for 10 years.)
2014/06/03 Discusses hearing metallic sound on his Masters CL4 series 13 using Vandoren V12, 3.5 reeds. Writes about how his embouchure may not be matching the CL4.
2014/06/04 Talks about going from V12, 3.5 to strength 4.
2014/06/04 Talks about metallic sound being dampened by taking in more mouthpiece (CL4)
2014/06/04 Talks about eliminating metallic sound by switching to Vandoren Blue Box 3.5, loosening his ligature slightly, then discusses how his tone quality has vastly improved as well as resonance and articulation.
2016/01/21 Considers himself a “closed mouthpiece guy”. Now playing an M13 Lyre well at 3.5 but seeks advice as to whether he should strive for Vandoren’s upper limit of 4.5. He cannot get anything above 3.75 to work for him to make his tone sound good.
2016/01/25 His teacher advised him to switch to an M15 and work on basics.
2016/04/27 Sought reed advice for BD5 he wants to try out.
2016/06/11 He switches from his M13 Lyre to the B40 Lyre then back again to the M13 Lyre. He tells everyone that he has come down to 3.0 for the B40 Lyre but his articulation problems are driving him nuts! (His words.) He later discusses how little experience he has in adjusting reeds well.
2016/07/20 Discusses how upset he is at himself for weekly switching between B40 Lyre and M15. He reveals that he uses V12, 3.0 with B40 Lyre and V12, 3.75 with M15.
2016/08/02 Seeks advice for best reed for B40 Lyre. Then expresses dismay (MO) that all symphony players using this mouthpiece are using 3.5 and even 4.0 strengths!
2016/12/01 Now playing B40 Lyre and is trying Grabner G13. Doing comparison between B40 Lyre and Grabner G13.
2017/10/04 Talks about reed strengths for BD5. V12, 3.5 were nearly unplayable for him. (His words.) Then discusses greater success with V12, 3.0 strength.
2018/03/18 Discusses his own squeaking problem due to throat closing up. He then discusses how he suffers from increased tension on certain notes and that he is working to be more relaxed while playing.
2019/04/07 One response about Backun’s new mouthpiece specs.
2020/01/16 One posting on Embouchure fatigue.
The thing that stood out the most for me was his switching from closed to wide tip openings numerous times. Even he stated “he was upset with himself for doing this”. Since he’s been playing for 10 years and is in his 2nd year of getting a Musical Performance degree, I would think that he should have had sufficient time to strengthen his embouchure to play longer than 2 minutes. However, he didn’t state which mouthpiece he was playing. If he has suddenly switched over to a wide tip opening after playing on a closed tip mouthpiece for quite a while, I can see why he might be having an endurance problem.
Another thing I noticed is his inclination to play on the strongest reed listed for a particular mouthpiece or even beyond that. On 2016/08/02, he stated that symphony players were playing 3.5 and 4.0 on the B40 Lyre mouthpiece when Vandoren lists a much lower reed strength number (2-3) as being appropriate.
Hopefully, by now, he has learned to adjust reeds.
To me, there seems to be so many problematic areas, it’s almost as if “where does one start”?
Since I consider myself as only a researching hobbyist, I need to hear from “real players” to comment on what he has written on this BB in the past (which I believe is public domain).
My purpose in doing all of this is not to embarrass him or expose his faults, but to help him and others who might be having the same problem.
OK, it’s time to turn it over to the “real players”...
Post Edited (2020-01-19 10:40)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-19 21:08
Yeah, as an experienced player, I don't think the above post is a good idea.
My reason
We all CHANGE over time, LEARN over time, and even experience different PHYSICAL PROBLEMS (such as dystonia) over time.
I'm sure my dossier would look even wonkier (if you wish, you can do the same for me.....I think it would be funny).
But no, I think approaching advice with a bit more "current focus" is the way to go.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2020-01-19 21:32
What I take from what was posted by Dan is that the OP puts too much emphasis in what other reed strengths others are using rather than what is comfortable to them. If you are trying to achieve the sound you want by increasing reed strength you will never get there. The right amount of resistance is supposed to make things easier, not harder. Which brings me back to my first reply on this thread...make sure your reed isn’t too hard. Then, focus on voicing and using your air in a way to achieve the sound and expression you want to. You can not overblow your way there. Hopefully this is making sense!
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Author: gwie
Date: 2020-01-19 21:36
I was in the same boat during and immediately after graduate school...played a very high resistance setup with a Vandoren V12 4.5-5.0 in order to get what I wanted tonally. At the time, the education I received with the instrument was focused on technique and not on equipment. Diminishing endurance and embouchure-related pain forced me to reconsider my setup, and about six years ago, Brad Behn helped me find something that worked really well. It changed my entire perspective on the way my students dealt with reeds as well, and finding more efficient, less-resistant setups has helped everyone all across the board.
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2020-01-19 21:55
I appreciate all the responses so far!
It’s quite funny for me to see a list of my ramblings from the past. I joined this forum while I was a very inexperienced player (most postings were during my freshman and sophomore year of high school). I was only able to take one or two lessons per month throughout high school, and I did a very good job at attempting to self diagnose every problem I had (and obviously went down the dark dark path of gear hunting...). I learned A LOT from reading the forum (fundamental ideas and techniques), and in many ways I feel self taught in a small sense, however it seems the most tangible thing I could do was question gear. After all of that, I learned just how important having a good private teacher is and how disagreeable many of my actions were.
All that going to say: I’ve matured from then. I’m at an amazing school and have FANTASTIC faculty and colleagues that give great advice and are helping me through this. I’m playing on a set up that my professor is very fond of, and I know the problem is not my gear (it’s me). My post here was to seek others’ experiences with this issue and maybe get a few ideas on how to tackle it. One of the most powerful aspects of this forum is the extremely wide variety of issues, problems, and solutions that are presented. Now-a-days, as a teacher, I’ve found the vast array of knowledge and ideas I’ve read here to be quite useful in combination with what I’ve learned from my teachers.
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Author: JasonOlney
Date: 2020-01-19 22:00
For what it's worth, I have suffered from embouchure fatigue for a very long time. However, I've never been in as good a place as I am now.
I've worked very hard at relaxing a lot. I have always been overly concerned about all of the elements of my embouchure (generally obsessing about one or two elements) without considering how they work together in a system.
I think sometimes earnest players used too much strength and play on overly thick reeds. It's easy to add more strength and tension, it's difficult to take it away. I would recommend using very soft reeds to start practice sessions and learn the minimum amount of strength required to make them play. And a lot of long tones and low playing.
I also underestimated the use of the tongue in the embouchure system. I think many of us underestimate the vital role of the tongue. I would also recommend lots of voicing work.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-01-19 23:33
Paul,
Thank you for your review of my response. Even though it was negative, that's OK. That's why I began my remarks with Marc C and GBK at the very top. However, you are, of course entitled to your opinion and I respect it. If the O.P had responded sooner than 4 days, I wouldn't have posted what I did.
I agree with you that "approaching advice with a bit more "current focus" is truly the best way to go. However, to me, that means there has got to be a back and forth conversation between the O.P. and the responders. That didn't happen and it still isn't happening. For example, we still don't know the answers to what Bob Bernardo asked towards the beginning. That is, what mouthpiece is being played, what is the tip opening and the facing parameters, and, what strength of reed is being used. To me, these are all very important pieces of information that I tried to glean from his past postings.
I can see that you're upset and, yes, I caught the dystonia remark immediately.
Hopefully, the O.P. will respond again and give us the necessary information via having a real dialogue to help him in a meaningful way.
Peace.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-01-20 01:33
Exiawolf wrote:
> I’m at an
> amazing school and have FANTASTIC faculty and colleagues that
> give great advice and are helping me through this. I’m
> playing on a set up that my professor is very fond of, and I
> know the problem is not my gear (it’s me).
I'm still puzzled that a "fantastic" professor isn't more helpful than a lot of strangers in cyberspace trying to guess at how your playing sounds and how you look when you're playing. It seems to me that a problem like the one you describe, which seems to have to do with stressing some part of your facial musculature beyond its endurance point in a very short time, must be rooted in misuse of the muscles themselves, some undiagnosed medical (neurological?) issue, or gear that needs more endurance than you've been able to develop with a typical music major's practice and rehearsal regime.
We have to assume there's no medical cause, though it's something you might check into if no other explanation helps. Misusing the facial ("embouchure") muscles in controlling your sound is something that would best be observed by an expert observer in the room watching you closely. Your professor ought to be capable of correcting that kind of problem either by "catching you in the act" - seeing how your embouchure muscles form and where they might be over-stressed - or by helping you rebuild your technique from the bottom. He also would be best placed to hear aural evidence that all is not working together in your technique.
> I’m using a Vocalise G with Euro Sig 3.75’s
The problem of gear similarly is best judged by someone hearing you play. I don't know anything about a Vocalise G. I do know that a Euro Sig. 3.75 is the Legere I use (when I use a Legere) on a close-tipped medium length facing (1.00-1.03mm/17-18 length curve). 3.75 is even too hard on some of those, depending on other internal dimensions. If the Vocalise is anywhere closer to the B40 than it is to the M13 in resistance, it could be a problem whether or not the combination is one your professor uses.
I think all you can do, if you're wedded to the equipment you're using and your teacher can't find any technical explanation for the problem, is work systematically at trying to build your muscular endurance. Play for short periods, take a short rest, then play some more and repeat the cycle over as long a time in one series as you can recover during the rests. Once you're exhausted, put the clarinet away and repeat the cycle again later or the next day, always trying to increase the length of the practice bursts. If that doesn't work over a week or two, you really need to consider that your technique is faulty, your reeds are too heavy (despite your liking the sound they produce) or (more drastic) it's time to have a medical evaluation.
Karl
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Author: DaphnisetChloe
Date: 2020-01-20 01:48
An hour of long tone exercises a day, especially crescendi and diminuendi style excercises across the entire range of the clarinet, will help you improve your endurance enormously. While you do them, focus on gripping the mouthpiece with the sides of your mouth - these are the muscles that need to be strengthened so you don't leak air. Also, as the Legeres play flat it's easy to start biting in order to play at pitch. Try and avoid this as it can cause air leaks to develop. Instead get a shorter barrel
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-01-20 01:56
The answer is a softer reed, in my opinion. If you can't bring yourself to do that, then a more closed mouthpiece with the same reed.
When I went to college, I was playing on a Borbeck 13 and insisted that I could only get "my sound" from a V12 #4. My teacher recognized that "my sound" was just me biting and compensating for my lack of voicing or fine control by using such a hard reed that harshness was almost impossible. Unfortunately, so was clarity, clean articulation or fine dynamic control!
At that point, I was so insistent that I had to play a #4, that he ended up lending me a Hawkins with a very closed tip (~0.95mm) so I could play my "preferred" reed and we could get on with rebuilding my embouchure properly. In hindsight, I can see that I built a huge psychological barrier around "needing" to play a hard reed.
Lately I've been switching around mouthpieces far too much, mostly out of curiosity, but the common thread has been that I just don't want a resistant setup. A resistant setup can trick me into sounding good for a few minutes, but it ends up feeling like I'm trying to drive a Cadillac around Rome.
What I keep coming back to is a Fobes CF with a #3.5. When I was in college, I probably would have thought that felt like a kazoo, but for me now, it's perfect. I don't need to muscle it around and I can play as loudly or softly as I need. I can also play for hours even though I know my face is nowhere near as strong as it was 10 years ago when I was finishing up my degree.
If you're playing a setup that's physically exhausting, you're probably dedicating a lot more physical effort to basic tone production than you need to be. It should definitely be more about fine control than outright strength. Better endurance will come with that.
Post Edited (2020-01-20 01:57)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-01-20 01:57
DaphnisetChloe wrote:
> An hour of long tone exercises a day, especially crescendi and
> diminuendi style excercises across the entire range of the
> clarinet, will help you improve your endurance enormously.
Without intending to contradict you (I have no experience with long tones practiced over so long a time period, though I've heard of it), I've always wondered why long tones practiced in this way are any more useful **for endurance** than just playing for an hour.
In any case an hour at a stretch is something that apparently Exiawolf is finding it hard or impossible to do right now, so whatever exercises he does would probably need to be done for shorter time periods to begin with.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-20 08:49
I'll put myself down in the camp that feels the "G" facing is too open for that reed strength. Currently I use an old Hawkins "R" (much smaller opening and much freer blowing) and pair that with a Legere European Signature 3.5 strength reed.
As for the long tones being more of an embouchure workout. One has to try it to see the difference. If you are doing long iterations of softest sounds to loudest sounds and back again, you soon realize how much effort that takes (more wind wise ........but still). As I've said recently there is a tightrope walk between how much effort you put in with your embouchure vs. your wind (pushing from your mid-section). This is highlighted by exaggerated dynamic work (easiest to concentrate on this as a long tone exercise).
Try it, you may like it.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: JJB
Date: 2020-01-22 02:54
Max - how funny! I also used to play a Borbeck 13 with V12 #4, for over 20 years, actually...and I just switched to the Fobes CF with #3.5 last year.
Watching this thread with interest. I'm having the same problem as the OP, but it sure doesn't seem like my reeds are too hard. If I play anything softer I'm too flat. Jason's comment about relaxing is interesting. Maybe I'll focus on that for awhile. I am a very tense person in general, and I'm so worked up about this embouchure issue lately that it's probably not helping.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-01-22 03:06
JJB wrote:
> Watching this thread with interest. I'm having the same problem
> as the OP, but it sure doesn't seem like my reeds are too hard.
> If I play anything softer I'm too flat.
There is the way you form your embouchure to consider. There are comments among the above posts. Some older approaches to embouchure (e.g. the "smile") can contribute to letting air escape. My recollection of my early days as a clarinet student (late 1950s and onward) is that air leaks from the corners of the player's mouth weren't so taboo back then as they are now. Like reed noise at pianissimo, the attitude was that it wouldn't carry to the audience so it didn't matter. Of course a hiss loud enough to reach listeners was another story.
Karl
Post Edited (2020-01-27 05:36)
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Author: JJB
Date: 2020-01-22 03:30
Thanks Karl. I should probably get the mirror out again to review exactly what I'm doing. I may have been taught the "smile" when I was younger...I don't recall. I'm certainly not doing that now. It's not just the air leaks...my muscles basically give out unless I rest for a few measures. This is not a new thing for me, so I really need to try something different. I will try the advice in this thread over the coming weeks.
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Author: mihalis
Date: 2020-01-22 06:46
I will give the best exercise for endurance.
Play first on your practice Spiegel Im Spiegel every day.
When you perfect it, you will know your endurance has improved.
That's what I do.
Mike.
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Author: Max S-D
Date: 2020-01-22 09:18
Oh, my pitch has definitely come down a lot since moving to a less resistant setup. Back then I used to play a 67mm barrel that would pretty much always be pulled out about 2-3mm. Nowadays I am on a 65mm barrel pulled out about 1.5mm. Obviously a 66 would get me in tune also, but I like a little room to go higher if I need to.
I'm a lot more in tune now than I used to be and I also have access to a lot more pitch flexibility than I used to have when I need to adjust one way or another.
For the air leaks, I've found it's really important to work on keeping the corners of the embouchure in. Until I really started playing that way, I was just trying to get air to stop coming out by chewing down harder with my jaw. Trying to get the corners to seal by clamping vertically means applying a ton of vertical force. Focusing that effort where the problem lies means less extra effort applied places where it's not helping. If air is leaking out the sides, try and focus on the muscles on the sides.
Focusing on removing unnecessary tension from the embouchure helped me a lot in surprising ways. It's amazing how relaxing a bit in your face can help release tension down the neck, which in turn helps release tension in the shoulders and chest, which then helps release tension in the arms and hands and suddenly you can play faster, too!
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Author: johnnydodds
Date: 2020-01-22 11:17
Do some mouth Yoga. I learned it when I was younger and it has helped me greatly. I am afraid to post a link here but just google mouth yoga and look at the images. I know one is called lion posture, basically opening your mouth as wide as possible with extended jaw and sticking your tongue down and out as much as you can, like a lion yawn. Another one is like a big giant clown smile. Basixally, you need to stretch the muscles in and around your mouth, as well as the extensors in your neck by jutting your chin up and forward with head tilting back. Don't do it with anyone else around they will think you've lost your marbles. Good luck.
Post Edited (2020-01-22 11:17)
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Author: Mike Sz
Date: 2020-01-27 03:05
Hello all. My first post here on this site.
I can understand how the originator of this thread feels.
I'm an ex Military Musician, Clarinet player and started playing the clarinet in 1969.
I spent a year at Kneller Hall, the Royal Military School of Music in London and my clarinet Professor for that year was Jack Brymer. I was very lucky to get some great advice and guidance.
However after 20 years break from playing I have re-discovered my love of playing again with a local wind band.
I can definitely relate to the problems of a very tired embouchure.
I have read with interest all of the comments and advice given and agree with the majority. However, I feel that you will all agree that it is a very complex problem with many variables.
My feeling is that, from the initial description of his problem, he is trying hard to 'Do the right thing' and copy the styles and sounds of others rather than trying to develop his own style and sound. The style of mouthpiece along with strength of reed affects more than the ability to play for a longer time but has a massive effect of the sound developed.
I feel that he needs to find his own more relaxed style to play and experiment with several different mouthpieces with different lays and different strengths of reeds.
Rather than trying to get his Professor to impart his knowledge, surely he would do much better by visiting a trusted and helpful music shop that supplies both of these items allowing him to trial the different pieces.
He could also do with finding a local Wind Band to pay with and see how long he can practise with them and play in their concerts. I have found that this has helped me very quickly re-develop my poor embouchure and allow me to play for more than 2 or three hours, having fun playing with others rather than just practising solo.
It's easy for us to say what we find easy but our marriage of mouthpiece, reed and playing style may be quite alien for another player.
I look forward to hearing your comments and seeing your ideas.
Mike Sz.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-01-27 04:04
Mike Sz,
First of all, welcome to the Woodwind Clarinet Bulletin Board! We are glad to have you aboard and hope to hear from you often!
Second, when you wrote: "'Do the right thing' and copy the styles and sounds of others rather than trying to develop his own style and sound. The style of mouthpiece along with strength of reed affects more than the ability to play for a longer time but has a massive effect of the sound developed", I believe you "hit the proverbial nail squarely right on the head!"
The name Marcellus has been mentioned more than a few times on this BB. Various types of mouthpieces have been developed in an effort to duplicate his beautiful sound.
Now, allow me to ask the following: "Have any of you ever heard a player who sounded exactly like Marcellus? To the point where you couldn't tell them apart? I don't think so. To me, the clarinet tone is created by the mouthpiece, reed, ligature, the clarinet body itself,...and "the oral cavity of the player". If you take two players using the exact same equipment, would they sound exactly the same? I don't believe so, again, because of the differences in their oral cavities.
I believe it was Pete Fountain who stated: "Don't try to sound like me. Learn to sound like yourself" or something to that nature.
Max Sz, thanks for your valued input. My eyes are a little bit wider now and my understanding has increased.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-01-27 05:42
Dan Shusta wrote:
> Now, allow me to ask the following: "Have any of you ever heard
> a player who sounded exactly like Marcellus? <snip> If
> you take two players using the exact same equipment, would they
> sound exactly the same? I don't believe so, again, because of
> the differences in their oral cavities.
>
I think, going back to the original context of Exiawolf's question, it isn't so much a matter of trying to sound like anyone, and asking his professor's opinion needn't be focused so much on what he should use to sound like his professor. It's more an issue of very possibly needing to change something that's tiring his embouchure or causing him to lose control of it after a few minutes of sustained playing. This doesn't seem to be an issue of finding a personal playing style or a "sound" (he says he's very happy with the sound he's already getting). It's one of finding a physical cause for a physical symptom or phenomenon that's interfering with his overall success as a player.
Mouthpieces, reeds, ligatures and other equipment choices are indeed personal choices once you've reached a point where choices of style and sound palette are priorities. When there's a problem with production itself - the OP, a 2nd year performance major (not a beginner or recently returning from a long hiatus), is having trouble getting through an etude, indeed more than a couple of minutes of sustained playing, without losing control of his embouchure - it's almost always time to ask for help from someone capable of diagnosing the problem. And then trying to follow the prescription until the problem is solved.
It doesn't have much to do with personal choices. He can't physically get through an etude. You don't need to want to duplicate an expert player's tone and style in order to benefit from his advice.
Karl
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Author: Chartcom
Date: 2020-01-27 12:17
Very interesting comments. I have learned a lot from reading them. As a clarinet player on and off for the past 50 years (I was an aspiring professional in my youth but decided better to keep it as a hobby) I have experienced many ups and downs regarding embouchure. As at least one comment above has suggested this is very common and I would agree. In my case there are two main themes involving embouchure. The first concerns the reeds, one of the most challenging, if not the most challenging aspect of playing the clarinet in my view. To learn how to shave and adjust reeds is one of the first things to learn. In my experience out of a box of ten Vandoren reeds, or any other brand for that matter, one might find one or two if you are lucky that suit straightaway. The others will need a degree of adjustment and many will never be suitable. The strongest reed I could ever take was 2.5 but mostly used 2 and was happy with the tone and sound from that. I dare say that some professionals use stronger and perhaps the tone will indeed be sharper as a result but from my point of view the strength required from the embouchure to produce a sound using a higher strength reed has always been out of the question for me. As for embouchure I started with one for the first 10 years and then whilst studying in Sweden my tutor persuaded me to change it. After that I was never really happy and since then have tried to find the most comfortable. The problem for me is not air escaping, never has been, but I have a fairly thick bottom lip which now tends to provide a dampener to the sound unless I tighten it up. The result is now after many years of not playing at all that I get tired very quickly and my bottom teeth start to bite into my lip. So now that I taking it up again I find that I have to work hard on this since my mouth has slackened and the embouchure has slipped although I am happy to say the sound and tone is still good. In summary I have a lot of work to do on my embouchure (probably need to start from scratch). Any comments would be welcomed and I hope sharing my experience has been helpful.
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Author: Mike Sz
Date: 2020-01-27 20:05
Hi Chartcom,
I do know what you mean about teeth biting into your lower lip.
Rather than suffering with embouchure tiredness I used to suffer quite badly with a sore bottom lip.
One trick I was advised was to use a substance called Gutta Percha.
This was sold in the UK by pharmacies.
It was sold as a stick of about 3mm thick a round bar.
It is hard so it is softened in warm to hot water...not too hot.
It then softens and can be moulded into a flatish rectangle.
This can then be moulded over the bottom teeth and you have to allow it to set or harden.
it then becomes like a boxers mouth guard to fit over your bottom teeth when you play.
I always found this a great help.
Mike Sz.
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Author: Chartcom
Date: 2020-01-27 21:50
Thank you very much Mike for taking the trouble to respond....with a very useful tip. I will look into that.
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Author: Chartcom
Date: 2020-01-27 21:57
Mike I just read that you were at Kneller Hall...You we’re lucky to have Jack Brymer as your prof...I did not know he was involved at Kneller Hall. I met him once at the age of 11 when he was alive and my Mother needed to have his opinion as to whether I should continue playing. She also took me to see Thea King for the same reason. Later in life I had a tutor called Capt Pike who was a Kneller Hall veteran band master....did you ever come across him ? Rather eccentric and with a jaw that used to cross over from side to side as he sang along !
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-01-27 22:02
Chartcom, since you haven't played for years my prime suggestion would be to accept for yourself that you are now starting from zero considering embouchure strength (after all that strength is considerably weakened already after not playing just for a week, or less).
So first of all, don't be overly concerned about getting quickly tired. You may consider going down a half or a whole reed strength from what you used previously, to be able to play for longer sessions. If you want to fasten your progress, you could play for several shorter sessions during a day instead of one single session.
Another thing concerning me is your bottom teeth cutting into you bottom lip. It could suggest that you have a "biting problem", which has been covered largely on this board.
For short, and as I understand, 50 years ago when you started playing "biting" wasn't considered a problem. Instead, it was even taught as a proper way to exert pressure on the reed. Later that approach has largely been abandoned in favour of embouchure pressure exercised only (or at least mainly) by the lips, not the jaw. I think most players nowadays agrees that "jaw-pressure" tend to have a negative effect on the tone (as some says, killing the reed vibrations) compared to "lip-pressure".
If you would like to try this "non-biting" approach you could deliberately keep your jaw and your lower teeth somewhat downwards to ensure that there is some empty space between your lower lip and your lower teeth (or at least that there is no pressure at all from the teeth into the lip). At the same time, don't overdo the pressure from your lips more than you feel comfortable with and which doesn't tire you out too quickly. Form your lips around your mouthpiece as you do when you whistle. From there, and if you feel that you need to tighten up your lower lip, you could just pull it a bit backwards/to the sides (I also have a fairly thick bottom lip and I do the same).
For my part and with my setup, I don't use any jaw pressure at all in the whole first and second register, but for tuning reasons I need some of it in the third register. Trying to exert the needed pressure there only with the lips is just too tiring, and in that register I can't detect any harm to the tone from some moderate "biting".
Post Edited (2020-01-27 22:25)
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Author: Chartcom
Date: 2020-01-27 22:08
Thank you Micke....very helpful advice and thank you for taking the time to write it...much appreciated. I shall give it a try ! Of course I want to be able to play like I used to straightaway and tend to be a little impatient...it takes time to build up for sure.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2020-01-27 22:30
Chartcom wrote:
> The problem for me is.... I have a fairly thick
> bottom lip which now tends to provide a dampener to the sound
> unless I tighten it up. The result is now after many years of
> not playing at all that I get tired very quickly and my bottom
> teeth start to bite into my lip.
Sometimes when a reed is too soft or a mouthpiece offers too little resistance, you end up having to tighten (or bite) just to keep it in tune. I don't know that you're experiencing that, but it's worth considering that your reeds are a little too light for your mouthpiece and that the next strength (1/4 or a 1/2 higher - whichever your reeds offer) might actually need less strength or biting.
Karl
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-01-28 00:03
59 years ago when I was taught the smile technique, the importance of the absolutely flat lower lip was stressed. Now, as I read about forming a whistle embouchure, there's no way I can maintain a smooth, flat lower lip. Is the flat lower lip approach no longer in vogue?
This round, whistle approach, to me, is beginning to sound almost like a sax embouchure.
Yes, I always had air leakage from my right side and I couldn't understand how to keep the lower lip stretched flat and yet push inward to stop the air leakage. It just seemed counterintuitive to me.
IMO, the best instructive embouchure approach I've read on this BB is to simply fold the lower lip slightly over the lower teeth. Then the side pressure to stop any leakage is quite easy to do.
To me, the fold over approach would maintain a flat landing surface for the reed whereas, I believe, the whistle approach would not. Or, again, is it really not necessary for a flat lower lip anymore?
I'm getting a customized "E" Zinner from Nathan Beaty in the mail today and after not playing for at least the last 25 years, I want to use the correct embouchure approach. (Its specs are 1.10/38).
My thanks for any instructional comments.
p.s. My closest teacher is about 55 miles from me.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-28 00:28
I describe the correct embouchure with a flat lower lip as if you were pulling back......and down. This achieves a look to your face that might (in my mind's eye) resemble a parrot.
But I would agree that you don't want a big, puffy, wrinkly mess on which to place the reed.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-01-28 02:13
Hi Paul,
As the old saying goes: "a picture is worth a thousand words".
YouTube had what I thought was Dr. Russel Brown playing the original Jody Jazz Chedeville with what looked like a "foldover" embouchure. It appears that that particular video has been taken down because Jody now has a new mouthpiece called the "Chedeville Elite". This demonstration video, unfortunately, has Dr. Brown using, what looks like, a completely different embouchure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDlQDHjbjT8 at 1:18.
Most of the clarinet mouthpiece videos I view appear to have someone playing on what looks like a medium facing.
However, here's one of a young woman demonstrating an M15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfAsQ9orDpc at 0:32-0:38.
Paul, unfortunately, I still can't visualize your described technique. From your description, it appears it would work well at a 32 or 34. Would it work well at a 38?
If you could post a close up picture of just your embouchure, that would be great!
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-01-28 22:42
Dan, to keep things as simple as possible for a beginner blowing for the first time in a clarinet I tell them only three things: 1) Fold your lower lip over your lower teeth, 2) put your upper teeth on top of the mouthpiece, 3) then close your mouth and just blow.
If a tone comes out this way, then only later and after this approach has become somewhat established, I move on to how to develop a more complete embouchure.
At this later stage the whistle analogy can be used, as well as other similar ones I've seen on this board - such as form your mouth as when sucking through a thick straw, as a drawstring or rubber band around the mouthpiece, as when kissing, etc.
The point of these analogies is to help create an embouchure pressure more or less equal all around the mouthpiece, in contrast to a "biting" or "jaw pressure" embouchure where the pressure is mainly vertical. Because of the harmful effects of biting (to the tone, to the lower lip, etc) that should be avoided and all embouchure pressure should ideally come only from the lip muscles (maybe with the exception of the third register where some "biting" may be accepted, at least as I allow myself and as I wrote in my previous post above).
However, and here comes my main point: These analogies should still not be taken too literally since then they would indeed produce a "wrinkly mess" of your lips, as Paul pointed out above. But, if a beginner already has established a simple folding of the lower lip over the lower teeth and then just ads a "whistle" or whatever analogy is used to that, then the desired kind of embouchure may come out quite easily and naturally (or not, and in that case the maintained flatness of the lower lip may need attention).
Some teachers also describes the forming of such an embouchure as saying "we-two". When saying "we" you flatten your lower lip, which you should then keep in that position, but when you continue by saying "two" you sort of pull together the rest of your mouth opening around your mouthpiece.
The same kind of "whistle-embouchure" can be used regardless of facing length. I use it on Viennese facings which are extremely long compared to French facings - but the longer the facing, the more mouthpiece you just need to take in.
So in summary, don't wrinkle up your lower lip but try otherwise to form your mouth as when you whistle (or any other similar analogy you prefer) - and don't bite.
These are of course only the basics, but hopefully to some help. There are also other approaches that may work as well.
Post Edited (2020-01-29 02:27)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-01-28 23:23
Micke, many thanks for your suggestions.
I'm beginning to think that I simply have to face reality as to my age. In a few weeks I'll be 73 and I'm really beginning to wonder if I have the necessary wind power anymore. Nathan Beaty sent me and "E" Zinner with a tip opening of 1.1 and a facing of 38. He said he tested it with a Legere Euro 3.5. I had to go all the way down to a 1.5 Fibracell before I could get a tone out of it. Anything else was way too resistant. Anyway, he's sending me more mpcs to try out and we'll see how it goes. What really demoralizes me is to see some 10 yr old girl who appears to be easily playing the clarinet and having fun. Yep, very demoralizing.
I'll keep trying though because I sure love the sound of the clarinet.
Perhaps I should replace my 0.575 clarinet with a 0.590. Do you think that would make much of a difference?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-01-29 00:51
Ok, my opinion on mouthpieces (for you) would be something relatively close facing. The Fobes Debut is a fantastic mouthpiece with a great facing and an even greater price ($47.00 US dollars). I would pair that with a #3 strength Vandoren V21 (maybe even start at #2 1/2).
The synthetic reeds are great but it takes diligence and really KNOWING your mouthpiece inside and out to work out what strength Legere European cut to settle on.
As for the embouchure, I am thinking this way. You know how you make the skin between your lower lip and chin firm and smooth to shave so you don't cut yourself. I'm pretty sure pulling the corners of your lips "back" is part of that. Just keeping the "corners" back (rather than up into a smile) is what I'm talking about.
However, as long as you are maintaining a light "reed to facing" combo, obsessing about ebouchure should be a relatively moot point.
And length of facing has no bearing on embouchure whatsoever. That said, it is always a good idea to play up close to were the mouthpiece loses control (squawk test).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-01-29 02:01
Dan, I would not recommend replacing your regular bore clarinet with a wider bore one - not just to make your playing experience less resistant.
At least one "school" advises to pair a small bore clarinet with a large opening mouthpiece and vice versa. That is to obtain about equal resistance without loosing focus in the sound. Following this advice wouldn't thus make a larger bore clarinet feel less resistant.
From my own experience playing clarinets between 14.55mm (upper joint, lower end - as the Buffet Tradition) and 15.25mm (a Martin Foag Reform Boehm) with the same mouthpiece the felt difference in resistance hasn't been that big. After all, in these examples though quite extreme we are still talking about a difference of only 0.7mm, which equals to about 7 pieces of human hair side by side. Other aspects, as tone and intonation are affected for sure, but not so much the resistance - at least in my experience.
I think you are on the right path with trying out mouthpieces with different openings/facings. I'm sure you will find something suitable for you. With time, when your embouchure and playing develops, you may want to change to something else - but for now I think it's vital to find something that you just feel comfortable with.
Post Edited (2020-01-29 02:09)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2020-01-29 04:18
Hi Paul, I feel as if I have hijacked this thread and I had no intention of doing that. I've had the Debut before but found it too resistant and tiring. I never got above a Rico Royal #2 with the Debut. I do enjoy playing with a medium 34 facing, but, it difficult for me to find a extremely free blowing mpc with that facing. I know the Portnoy BP2 has been mentioned many times as to being "free blowing", but, that one has a 1.15 tip opening. Interestingly, I remember reading a thread about a teacher who had the whole Portnoy line. First, he had his students try the BP1 and then the BP2. For some reason, almost all of them liked the BP2 better. However...there were students who liked the BP3 even better and that one has a 1.17 tip opening. I find it hard to figure that one out. What I'm looking for is some kind of a pattern as to which tip opening and facing length to keep heading towards. And that means, to me, a lot of experimentation. I thought I could analyze it mentally, but I pretty much failed in that endeavor.
Micke, I really want to keep my small bore instrument because the intonation is almost like a straight line from E3 to C6 and the throat tone are quite clear. What I have is a Vito Classic 7242 which, to me, is built like a tank.
As much as I used to think that I could theorize my way to obtain my mouthpiece objective, it now appears that I have a lot of trial and error experimenting ahead of me.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2020-01-29 19:57
Dan, whether we like it or not, I would say that the trial and error track is far superior to all kind of theorizing when it comes to choosing clarinet gear.
If you were here in Scandinavia where I am, you would probably be recommended something like a Vandoren B40 (tip opening 1.195mm) paired with a Vandoren blue box 1.5 for a really light setup (many beginners start with that). Here such a tip opening is considered medium, while in the States it's considered open. If everything else fails in your search for a less resistant setup, you could perhaps give also something like this a try.
Remember also that though there mostly is a direct correlation between the tip opening and reed strength where a smaller opening requires a stiffer reed and vice versa, there are also exceptions. So don't let just the opening measurement determine your chosen reed strength, but instead the actual feel and result when you play.
As Paul pointed out, make also sure you take in enough mouthpiece. If not, just everything you try out would be too resistant and tiring.
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