 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-09-29 13:13
Most of us, though not all, agree that the tone of a clarinet loses its edge and "ping" with time. I suspect the wear and tear that dulls the tone is largely due to the humidity the upper joint/body receives. As the lower joint receives less rainfall, it would seem to me that you could give an instrument a new lease of life by simply changing the upper joint. The big stumbling block: what company would be willing to sell you just the upper joint of your model of clarinet? An artisanal maker would, but what about Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha? Yet selling 3/8ths of a clarinet would seem to me better business than not selling one at all. Your thoughts on the matter, please. Have any of you actually tried this?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2019-09-29 16:49
ruben wrote:
> what company would be willing to sell you
> just the upper joint of your model of clarinet? An artisanal
> maker would, but what about Buffet, Selmer, Yamaha?
I think the first obstacle would be that the models might not still be in production. Even if it is, as in a "standard" R-13, the design will probably have changed and no longer match your older instrument.
Even if I thought replacing the upper joint of my X series 10G Bb would restore something in the sound, there's nothing Selmer could do to help. I can't even find barrels except on EBay or from 3rd party makers.
Might work in theory, but would be hard to do in practice, I think.
Karl
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Author: Reedman1908
Date: 2019-10-01 21:27
Purchased a NOS upper joint for my Selmer 9* in A, joint only, from Backun. There was a chip in the internal bore. Had Wes Rice make the change which was not easy, and my clarinet plays great. I have had negative experience with stuffy A clarinets, but not this one. Of course, It was serendipity that I found one, but they exist. No my Series 9 & 9*’s are not blown out. My Selmer Paris BC from 1980 is a gem also, very warm and resonant tone, my favorite! Had my 1940 penzel Mueller Brilliante Eb soprano overhauled by Meridian Winds in Okemus MI. Magic! My Eb is “giving a clarinet a new lease”, as well as my Bb& A from Wes. Unless there was physical damage to the upper joint, a professional overhaul will resolve all concerns.
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Author: bsnake1956
Date: 2019-10-03 01:25
Hey Ruben
First of all, I have not seen most of the contributors on this bboard say they believe that a clarinet loses edge (whatever that is) and ping (never really understood that definition either, except that beautiful quality that each individual note has) because a clarinet has aged.
There are many contributors to this bboard who play instruments that are much older than the instruments that I play (Bb R13 1985, A R13 1975). The fact of the matter is that professional instruments have to be adjusted (including the upper joint) so that they play well. That could include bore adjustments (including reaming), key and pad replacements, recorking, regulation, and a myriad of other issues. As Reedman says, then you are talking serious work. Reedman does not say what this cost them.
However, a clarinet manufacturer will not sell you a new joint. It is not worth it to them. A new clarinet is more cost effective. A new joint will not match, and frankly it is more likely that a reputable maker will fix the joint, rather than replace it.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-03 12:55
Dear Snake, I fully agree with everything you've said, especially as it makes perfect sense. I do, however, think that humidity makes wood take a beating and that..."something goes"; the fibers maybe lose their elasticity. This debate has been going on for a long time and I doubt whether we will ever have conclusive evidence about whether this is true or not. Manufacturers would certainly not-as you have said-agree to replace a joint. It would be bad business. But once again, artisanal builders do this sort of thing, which is one advantage of getting a handcrafted instrument. An oboist friend of mind got the upper joint of his cors anglais replaced by Lorée and he claims it has never sounded so good.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-10-03 16:36
Attachment: IMG-1578.JPG (865k)
Attachment: IMG-1577.JPG (1285k)
Ruben,
as you said there's little to no evidence. No one ever conducted studies, experiments, whatsoever - though I recall someone posted exact bore measurements of older R13 and other clasics and found there where some minimal changes.
But there definenitely hasn't been large scale research publicly available.
However, being wood instruments, it's pretty inevitable that over time, "something" happens with the wood, right? And we do know that boxwood instruments used to have problems that can be adressed by drying/storing the wood better, though personally I'm skeptical whether they can keep up. Well, ask Schwenk and Seggelke, they make 'em, too....
At any rate, pillars coming loose on older/ heavily used instruments and other problems seem to directly correlate to them being made out of wood.
Now what I've experienced (though again, I'm only an amateur interested in this stuff) that on instruments I serviced, some people had what I would call an "erosion" in their upper bore. Asking them specifically, they admitted having humidity/sticky pads issues and that they might have a "spitty" way of playing the instrument. Mind you, this is only my experience and it might be completely wrong. But please take a look at the pictures attached. Surely you'll be familiar with similar cases. This particular instrument was only 10 years old and not that heavily used, but the guy really managed to do... something to his instrument. Being a Schreiber, which are extremely common here in Germany, the wood isn't exactly supreme, but the manufacturing is solid (they're owned by Buffet) and there's no way this instrument was like this when new.
Quite a few makers/ repair people offer to have the barrel rebored, or even the instrument. Someone I know recently had to have their barrels rebored on their top end Leitner + Kraus clarinet, claiming they had warped, which was confirmed by L+K. Now I wonder how this could happen in the first place (don't they store their wood like, forever?), but maybe it's because of that instrument being heavily used. I don't know....
So here's the thing: Why not simply have the upper joint lined with ABS/ebonite (or something similar??) Yamaha has been offering that option on some their Oboes and low end clarinets and I'm pretty sure there's been at least 1 other oboe maker doing this. Or at least offering a synthetic upper joint. There obviously is something happening with the bore over time and it may impact the instruments performance. Knowing old ebonite instruments, despite their flaws, their bore stays smooth over time - why not try to at least carry over some of the "synthetic" advantages? Also there's the Zoom barrel, which is partly ABS - this one doesn't have to be worked on at all and is imensely popular among professionals and amateurs alike.
But to get back to the main question: I personally haven't experienced old instruments to be "blown out" after a good service. There are other factors why I don't particulary know great ones yet (mostly intonation issues... need to get to know more..) but with climate change and exotic woods on the verge of extinction, we all should opt for instruments that actually last for ages.
At the same time, there's so many old instruments that just cannot compete with recent ones. So IMHO replacing the upper bore, besides the arguments others have outlined here, isn't an option. Instead, make one that is more resistant to humidity.
Best regards
Christian
Post Edited (2019-10-03 16:42)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2019-10-03 20:00
Dear Christian, You've made many excellent points. I agree that lining the top bore with ebonite would seem the best solution. The person I work with disagrees. He feels the pressure waves in the instrument have to directly bounce off the wood. Otherwise, according to him, all the different types of wood he uses-about 3 or 4-will sound the same; will lose their distinctive character. Boxwood is unique, but warps like hell. Maybe S and S have found a way of stabilizing it. I doubt it! There are a lot of 100-year-old Heckel bassoons around, but nobody wants an old French Buffet. German bassoons are lined, so they age better. French bassoons are not lined.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2019-10-03 20:22
Dear ruben,
Thanks for your feedback! The person you work with, as in, your boss? Well, no doubt this opinion can be found everywhere and that’s one reason why ebonite instruments aren’t really common. I‘d ask: Habe they tried on their own? Then I‘d be inclined to believe them.
The Zoom barrel of course contradicts that, with Backun on the other hand offering different wood options for their barrels.
Backun even made their carbon clarinets with an wooden inner bore. So we have very different concepts on the market right now, sadly there’s hardly anyone truly commited to sustainability. I mean, I’ve overhauled 3 bundy altos, and if only their keywork (especially plating) was made with a little more quality in mind, they‘d be great instruments. Given their age and intended use it’s pretty fantastic they’re still in use anyways. And that is exactly what no one cares to make today to be sure, those altos were only conceived to supply school bands with cheap instruments.
In conclusion, this is kind of a 1st world problem, there’s apparently no real demand for procedures to make the upper joint more durable (apart from Ridenour instruments, but let’s not again discuss wood vs ebonite...). Maybe Grenadilla simply lasts long enough already. And renember, „true“ Wurlitzers nowadays reach crazy prizes, despite their age. Uebels from the 50s are also pretty great and not that cheap, though they’re antiques in the clarinet world.
Post Edited (2019-10-03 20:24)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2019-10-03 21:49
Years back a local repairman ordered a Buffet upper joint without keys to replace a split top joint. The instrument was fairly new.
Freelance woodwind performer
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