 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-03 14:20
I'm attaching photos of an acquisition - the mail sections bear no makers name or serial number although the bell, barrel and mouthpiece all have the Selmer logo. The wood to each component part seems to match in grain and colour.
In terms of the keywork I'm at a loss to know if this is an actual Selmer and would appreciate your comments and observations.
If the site can't fit all seven images on this one post I will add them to a seperate post.
Many thanks in anticipation.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-03 14:28
Attachment: IMG_1999.JPG (1618k)
Attachment: IMG_2001.JPG (1595k)
I received the following to my post:
You cannot attach anything to this message. Either you are not the author of the message or the maximum number of attachments have been attached.
I will now up load two at a time over several posts.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2019-09-03 14:43
Did you get this from eBay? There's one seller in particular who likes to pair cheaper clarinets with Selmer or Buffet barrels and bells to try to trick unsuspecting buyers.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2019-09-03 15:05
Would this seller be located on the Iberian Peninsula?
Tony F.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2019-09-03 15:45
The correspondence (connection between the two joints) looks like Selmer style.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2019-09-03 17:20
Yep, I think this seller is fairly notorious at this point. I would bet that this is either an Amati or some other Eastern European make as these instruments were commonly copied from Selmers. If I'm not mistaken, even the current Amati full Boehm clarinets are copies of Selmer instruments from the 60s and 70s. This would explain the lack of a logo.
Clarimad, I would return this instrument.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-03 17:28
In response to Tony - no, it was a UK eBay seller.
Jd - I don't think this is the seller you refer to as he has only sold another clarinet looking at his history.
I will await more responses before taking any action.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-09-04 04:49
There were full Boem clarinets produced under name of Wurlitzer in East Germany. Your picture of the joints looks just like those Wurlitzers.
They were made of slighly better materials, I guess because they had deeper sound compared to Czechoslovakian -made Amati.
E11 is a better clarinet, IMHO
Post Edited (2019-09-04 04:51)
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Author: jordan.1210
Date: 2019-09-04 09:14
I can share pictures of my Selmer full Boehm if you want, which I believe is genuine. The logos on mine are the older style but are on every part of the clarinet on the front (bell: near tenon, lower joint: between low E and Eb, top joint: above A key, barrel: centered).
While there might be some differences between models, the key work on yours looks slightly different than on mine.
Post Edited (2019-09-04 09:20)
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2019-09-04 22:11
No serial N° on the 2 keyed joints ? Here's a full from the series N
https://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/galleryclar/SelmerN54xx.htm
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-09-04 22:48
Most likely (99%) East Germany production with bell and barrel from Selmer. I do remember that the E. German Wurlitzer had 3 rings on top joint.
Also the rings should be the same, even then the east Germans could have copied Selmer rings.
Maybe still a playable instrument just not Selmer
Post Edited (2019-09-04 23:31)
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2019-09-04 23:50
Pictures from my 6- ring selmer. Looks very much the same...
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-09-05 00:11
Luuk wrote:
> Pictures from my 6- ring selmer. Looks very much the same...
>
They copied the keywork design 100% but not the wood quality.
Here: https://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/clemens-wurlitzer-clarinet.24032/
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2019-09-05 14:09
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
Post Edited (2019-09-05 14:30)
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2019-09-05 14:29
Attachment: IMG_20190904_214654.jpg (238k)
Attachment: IMG_20190904_214750.jpg (282k)
And another two...
I agree with the apparent lack of quality of the wood; it doesn't look good in the pictures of the OP.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
Post Edited (2019-09-05 14:32)
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-05 18:34
In response to Chris's question - no the speaker bush in not hexagonal.
I then assume that Selmer's all had the hex bush?
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-09-05 21:14
The keyworks looks identical as far as I can see from photos.
I just do not see why anyone would remove Selmer logos.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2019-09-07 05:51
The keywork looks more or less identical to my Series 9 as well (except mine has the hexagonal speaker bushing and the OP's does not). It does indeed sound crazy to buff-off the Selmer logos, and I can't imagine there wouldn't be some telltale signs left over, since the logos were cut pretty deep. The obvious conclusion is that there were never Selmer logos on there in the first place.
One other point of distinction might be the weight; you'd have to get a Series 9 FB in the same room with the mystery horn, and check their relative weight (IF the wood is not particularly good, as has been suggested, it might be substantially lighter than the 9). My S9 is heavy-ish, and the wood is so dense it almost looks like obsidian.
I'm not aware of how assiduously Selmer keywork was copied but the keywork here is close enough to be identical.
If it were me, and I were uncomfortable with the lack of logos, I'd send it back. Also, when it comes time for one to sell the thing, what is one going to sell it AS? You could cross your fingers and call it a Selmer, but ... I couldn't. Sending it back seems to obviate so many headaches down the road.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-07 11:03
Many thanks to all that have commented - it's going back to the seller.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-09-07 13:59
The Series 10 had near identical keywork to the Series 9, but the Series 10 had a small speaker tube and narrower bore than the Series 9.
I doubt this is a copy as no-one can copy things to that extent. Amati full Boehm keywork is based on Selmer's design, but it has loads of differences.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-09-12 23:06
Chris P wrote:
>
> I doubt this is a copy as no-one can copy things to that
> extent. Amati full Boehm keywork is based on Selmer's design,
> but it has loads of differences.
>
The Soviet block copied many designs- European and American.
A few examples here: https://www.rferl.org/a/the-classic-western-cars-copied-by-the-soviets/28468695.html
A car has many more parts than clarinet...
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Author: DougR
Date: 2019-09-13 01:47
Yeh, but they'd have to have pretty-near exact stamping/forging machines and measurements, wouldn't they? The cars in your linked article that are the closest to identical to their European/American counterparts (the Fiats, NSUs, Opels etc.) were made from tooling & stamping equipment bought/imported direct from the non-Soviet manufacturers.
The slight disparities I see between the OP's photos and my Series 9 I would put down to the fact that Selmer instruments had a lot of hand labor in them; of course there are going to be slight variances from instrument to instrument in those circumstances. Could always be wrong, of course.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-09-14 10:36
There were ebonite Chinese clarinets from the '50s though to the '70s (Lark, Hsinghai, Selmer 'Steel Ebonite' Console, etc) that copied Selmer BT/CT keywork and bell shapes, but again there were only around 80% there in appearance (and 20% in playability).
I need to see more photos of the entire clarinet as well as close-ups of where the logos are, speaker tube and any markings on the keywork (Selmers had a letter stamped on the underside of the RH E/B touchpiece until the late '70s).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2019-09-14 21:02
DougR wrote:"
Yeh, but they'd have to have pretty-near exact stamping/forging machines and measurements, wouldn't they? The cars in your linked article that are the closest to identical to their European/American counterparts (the Fiats, NSUs, Opels etc.) were made from tooling & stamping equipment bought/imported direct from the non-Soviet manufacturers.
The slight disparities I see between the OP's photos and my Series 9 I would put down to the fact that Selmer instruments had a lot of hand labor in them; of course there are going to be slight variances from instrument to instrument in those circumstances. Could always be wrong, of course."
Yes, his and yours look almost identical but why remove Selmer logos? If the logos been there in the first place.
Mind that it would not be easy to remove them, esp. from lower jt.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-14 23:12
The clarinet has since been returned to the seller and a full refund is now safely re-deposited in my bank account.
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Author: clarinetcounsel
Date: 2019-09-16 16:22
I played a full Boehm Selmer (Series 10S, my recollection is correct) in 1980s and 90s which resembled 99% of what are now shown in the pictures. As not shown in these pictures, its upper joint had a metal tenon (connecting to the lower joint) which was very rare at that time. After I switched to Selmer Signature and later Buffet Festival, I had left it idle for years and eventually its woods turned to be so dry with cracks on it so I just sent it to refuse collection point. Anyway, these pictures just remind me some old days with this full Boehm instrument.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-22 12:25
Well - further to the previous posts, and replies, I received a full refund from the seller but also managed to buy it back at a fraction of the price I originally paid for it.
Is anyone owning a Selmer full Boehm able to weigh their two main sections? I will do this today and want to compare the weights of the two joints with yours.
To me this is a Selmer - I have compared, very closely, with the keywork arrangement of a Selmer 10 and am unable to see any difference.
Weights to follow.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-22 16:13
The weight of the top section is 265 grams and the bottom section is 395 grams.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2019-09-22 20:09
I have what I believe is a Selmer 9 full with low Eb but no extra C# on the right hand joint : left hand (upper) = 271g, right hand (lower) = 373g.
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, is it a duck? Probably is, even if it's a funny-looking duck, and my instrument certainly is that. I bought it from an older sax player here in France who's not a clarinet geek, got tired of it lying around and sold it cheap. Don't know where he got it but the thing's a wreck cosmetically yet it plays nicely and like a Selmer of it's vintage. Selmer logos on the bottom joint & bell, totally worn hardly visible traces of logo on upper joint, matching serial number barely visible on both joints S55xx, hexagonal speaker bush, rings and thumb rest identical to my CT, keywork close but not identical to my CT, maybe because of the tenon overlap hole. But it's had a hard life, the body looks like driftwood, the finger rings are all worn to a thread , the silver plated keys were apparently replated long ago and are ugly and rough, and the last owner was a chain smoker , the thing stunk when I got it!! Oh yes, and they drilled out the selmer logo on the barrel to mount a mike on the sweet spot, apparently not worried about the future. Still there is enough coherence in the instrument and resemblance to photos of other instruments that I believe it is a Selmer product. This clarinet has not yet been seen by a luthier and maybe I've missed something glaring but it would seem that we are now more in the domaine of archeology or palentology for certain instruments and will have to go with intuition for lack of more solid proof. After sanitizing it to get rid of the smell I'm very pleased with the sound and that Eb/Bb key.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-09-23 00:24
Attachment: series9eb.jpg (263k)
Selmer did make some otherwise regular Boehm system Bb/A soprano clarinets to low Eb, but if they don't have ALL the extra keywork as a full Boehm has, then they're not full Boehms even if they happen to be built to low Eb.
If your one has the extra C#/G# sliver key missing, then it may have been removed if it got in the way. My full Boehm Eb had its extra C#/G# touchpiece removed and I fitted a new one, but then removed it as it was soldered directly to the C#/G# pad cup key barrel instead of the articulated touchpiece which made things interesting when doing a B-C#/F#-G# trill as the extra sliver key went UP when putting RH2 down (as the C#/G# pad cup is closed by the RH rings) and that could be felt.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2019-09-23 03:12
Chris P - that's an interesting observation and my guess is that's what happened as the instrument has been grossly fiddled with, including blocking the B/F# fork fingering key, which I was able to reverse. In the old catalogues the low Eb always has the C#/G# too. It will go in for an overhaul later this year and I'm sure my tech will have more to say on it. He beautifully restored a 1910 Selmer for me and the Selmer people came down from Paris to see it. It plays ok but it's value is more historic and I prefer my P series CT.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-23 18:56
Attachment: IMG_2116.JPG (1553k)
Now the horn is in the process of being dismantled the attached photo shows the area on the bottom section where Selmer's logo would have been and there are clearly sanding marks going in the direction of the grain. Why on earth would anyone want to remove the logo?
The top section appears not to have been tampered with though why wouldn't it have had a logo?
Baffling.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2019-09-23 21:31
clarimad wrote:
> Why on earth would anyone want to
> remove the logo?
With missing serial number too? Perhaps a stolen horn.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-09-24 14:07
There was an older Selmer listed by the same seller in Portugal where the Selmer logos were crudely defaced, but still evident.
I've bought three clarinets from this seller and knew exactly what I was getting into, so I didn't end up disappointed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2019-09-26 15:41
Chris P - boy am I blind ! Of course you're right about that C# key being removed, I just noticed the groove in the wood where it should and the nick on the post where it was cut (shows about how much of my time is spend in daylight hours...). It must have been a pain as it's a real tight fit between those rings and I can well imagine that it must have gotten in the way too much.
As for the logos wearing off, having the clarinet out on a stand where I can grab it while working , i noticed I'm always gripping the same spot on the left-hand element just below the joint. That logo won't be there much longer ! I've also seen CTs there the Selmer stamp is way deeper than the "Centered Tone" script, to the point of the later being almost invisible.
This horn has an incredible punch, looking forward to getting it into prime shape some day but there's a 3 month waiting list at my luthier....
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-29 13:42
Since my original post regarding this horn I've now got a Selmer 10 full Boehm in order to compare with.
There's absolutely no doubt that the horn is a bona fide Selmer but one question remains - why did Selmer not inscribe the top section or add serial numbers to this instrument?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2019-09-29 16:10
Unless the logos were skilfully removed leaving very little evidence they were ever there (you'd still see a dip on the surface to some degree), I can't honestly see why Selmer would have made a full Boehm system clarinet without any logos at all unless it was made by a Selmer worker wanting a clarinet of their own made using Selmer parts, only they weren't permitted to use Selmer logos as a result. There's got to be some history behind it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarimad
Date: 2019-09-29 19:24
The only evidence of logo removal was on a photo I posted several days ago. Clearly nothing has ever been stamped elsewhere.
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