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 Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: clarimad 
Date:   2019-09-03 14:20

I'm attaching photos of an acquisition - the mail sections bear no makers name or serial number although the bell, barrel and mouthpiece all have the Selmer logo. The wood to each component part seems to match in grain and colour.
In terms of the keywork I'm at a loss to know if this is an actual Selmer and would appreciate your comments and observations.
If the site can't fit all seven images on this one post I will add them to a seperate post.
Many thanks in anticipation.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: clarimad 
Date:   2019-09-03 14:28
Attachment:  IMG_1999.JPG (1618k)
Attachment:  IMG_2001.JPG (1595k)

I received the following to my post:

You cannot attach anything to this message. Either you are not the author of the message or the maximum number of attachments have been attached.

I will now up load two at a time over several posts.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: clarimad 
Date:   2019-09-03 14:30
Attachment:  IMG_1998.JPG (1269k)
Attachment:  IMG_2003.JPG (1471k)

More photos attached.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: clarimad 
Date:   2019-09-03 14:31
Attachment:  IMG_2002.JPG (1264k)
Attachment:  IMG_2004.JPG (1306k)

A couple more.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: clarimad 
Date:   2019-09-03 14:33

And finally.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2019-09-03 14:43

Did you get this from eBay? There's one seller in particular who likes to pair cheaper clarinets with Selmer or Buffet barrels and bells to try to trick unsuspecting buyers.

-Jdbassplayer

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: Tony F 
Date:   2019-09-03 15:05

Would this seller be located on the Iberian Peninsula?

Tony F.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: John Peacock 
Date:   2019-09-03 15:45

The correspondence (connection between the two joints) looks like Selmer style.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2019-09-03 17:20

Yep, I think this seller is fairly notorious at this point. I would bet that this is either an Amati or some other Eastern European make as these instruments were commonly copied from Selmers. If I'm not mistaken, even the current Amati full Boehm clarinets are copies of Selmer instruments from the 60s and 70s. This would explain the lack of a logo.

Clarimad, I would return this instrument.

-Jdbassplayer

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: clarimad 
Date:   2019-09-03 17:28

In response to Tony - no, it was a UK eBay seller.

Jd - I don't think this is the seller you refer to as he has only sold another clarinet looking at his history.

I will await more responses before taking any action.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: m1964 
Date:   2019-09-04 04:49

There were full Boem clarinets produced under name of Wurlitzer in East Germany. Your picture of the joints looks just like those Wurlitzers.
They were made of slighly better materials, I guess because they had deeper sound compared to Czechoslovakian -made Amati.
E11 is a better clarinet, IMHO



Post Edited (2019-09-04 04:51)

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: jordan.1210 
Date:   2019-09-04 09:14

I can share pictures of my Selmer full Boehm if you want, which I believe is genuine. The logos on mine are the older style but are on every part of the clarinet on the front (bell: near tenon, lower joint: between low E and Eb, top joint: above A key, barrel: centered).

While there might be some differences between models, the key work on yours looks slightly different than on mine.



Post Edited (2019-09-04 09:20)

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: Djudy 
Date:   2019-09-04 22:11

No serial N° on the 2 keyed joints ? Here's a full from the series N
https://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/galleryclar/SelmerN54xx.htm





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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: m1964 
Date:   2019-09-04 22:48

Most likely (99%) East Germany production with bell and barrel from Selmer. I do remember that the E. German Wurlitzer had 3 rings on top joint.
Also the rings should be the same, even then the east Germans could have copied Selmer rings.
Maybe still a playable instrument just not Selmer



Post Edited (2019-09-04 23:31)

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2019-09-04 23:46

http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,6408/IMG_1999.JPG
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,6409/IMG_2001.JPG
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,6410/IMG_1998.JPG
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,6411/IMG_2003.JPG
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,6412/IMG_2002.JPG
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,6413/IMG_2004.JPG

That looks just like a late Series 9 - they were often made without the Series 9 logo, but still carried the Selmer logo on ALL joints which was stamped or engraved deep into the wood making it difficult to remove.

Has it got a large hexagonal speaker bush?

Chris.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: Luuk 2017
Date:   2019-09-04 23:50

Pictures from my 6- ring selmer. Looks very much the same...

Regards,

Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: m1964 
Date:   2019-09-05 00:11

Luuk wrote:

> Pictures from my 6- ring selmer. Looks very much the same...
>

They copied the keywork design 100% but not the wood quality.
Here: https://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/index.php?threads/clemens-wurlitzer-clarinet.24032/

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: Luuk 2017
Date:   2019-09-05 14:09



Regards,

Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands

Post Edited (2019-09-05 14:30)

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: Luuk 2017
Date:   2019-09-05 14:28
Attachment:  IMG_20190904_214435.jpg (310k)
Attachment:  IMG_20190904_214523.jpg (301k)
Attachment:  IMG_20190904_214605.jpg (268k)

Sorry, pictures didn't come through. Second try...

Regards,

Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: Luuk 2017
Date:   2019-09-05 14:29
Attachment:  IMG_20190904_214654.jpg (238k)
Attachment:  IMG_20190904_214750.jpg (282k)

And another two...

I agree with the apparent lack of quality of the wood; it doesn't look good in the pictures of the OP.

Regards,

Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands

Post Edited (2019-09-05 14:32)

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: clarimad 
Date:   2019-09-05 18:34

In response to Chris's question - no the speaker bush in not hexagonal.
I then assume that Selmer's all had the hex bush?

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: m1964 
Date:   2019-09-05 21:14

The keyworks looks identical as far as I can see from photos.
I just do not see why anyone would remove Selmer logos.



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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: DougR 
Date:   2019-09-07 05:51

The keywork looks more or less identical to my Series 9 as well (except mine has the hexagonal speaker bushing and the OP's does not). It does indeed sound crazy to buff-off the Selmer logos, and I can't imagine there wouldn't be some telltale signs left over, since the logos were cut pretty deep. The obvious conclusion is that there were never Selmer logos on there in the first place.

One other point of distinction might be the weight; you'd have to get a Series 9 FB in the same room with the mystery horn, and check their relative weight (IF the wood is not particularly good, as has been suggested, it might be substantially lighter than the 9). My S9 is heavy-ish, and the wood is so dense it almost looks like obsidian.

I'm not aware of how assiduously Selmer keywork was copied but the keywork here is close enough to be identical.

If it were me, and I were uncomfortable with the lack of logos, I'd send it back. Also, when it comes time for one to sell the thing, what is one going to sell it AS? You could cross your fingers and call it a Selmer, but ... I couldn't. Sending it back seems to obviate so many headaches down the road.



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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: clarimad 
Date:   2019-09-07 11:03

Many thanks to all that have commented - it's going back to the seller.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2019-09-07 13:59

The Series 10 had near identical keywork to the Series 9, but the Series 10 had a small speaker tube and narrower bore than the Series 9.

I doubt this is a copy as no-one can copy things to that extent. Amati full Boehm keywork is based on Selmer's design, but it has loads of differences.

Chris.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: m1964 
Date:   2019-09-12 23:06

Chris P wrote:
>
> I doubt this is a copy as no-one can copy things to that
> extent. Amati full Boehm keywork is based on Selmer's design,
> but it has loads of differences.
>

The Soviet block copied many designs- European and American.
A few examples here: https://www.rferl.org/a/the-classic-western-cars-copied-by-the-soviets/28468695.html
A car has many more parts than clarinet...

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: DougR 
Date:   2019-09-13 01:47

Yeh, but they'd have to have pretty-near exact stamping/forging machines and measurements, wouldn't they? The cars in your linked article that are the closest to identical to their European/American counterparts (the Fiats, NSUs, Opels etc.) were made from tooling & stamping equipment bought/imported direct from the non-Soviet manufacturers.

The slight disparities I see between the OP's photos and my Series 9 I would put down to the fact that Selmer instruments had a lot of hand labor in them; of course there are going to be slight variances from instrument to instrument in those circumstances. Could always be wrong, of course.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2019-09-14 10:36

There were ebonite Chinese clarinets from the '50s though to the '70s (Lark, Hsinghai, Selmer 'Steel Ebonite' Console, etc) that copied Selmer BT/CT keywork and bell shapes, but again there were only around 80% there in appearance (and 20% in playability).

I need to see more photos of the entire clarinet as well as close-ups of where the logos are, speaker tube and any markings on the keywork (Selmers had a letter stamped on the underside of the RH E/B touchpiece until the late '70s).

Chris.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: m1964 
Date:   2019-09-14 21:02

DougR wrote:"
Yeh, but they'd have to have pretty-near exact stamping/forging machines and measurements, wouldn't they? The cars in your linked article that are the closest to identical to their European/American counterparts (the Fiats, NSUs, Opels etc.) were made from tooling & stamping equipment bought/imported direct from the non-Soviet manufacturers.

The slight disparities I see between the OP's photos and my Series 9 I would put down to the fact that Selmer instruments had a lot of hand labor in them; of course there are going to be slight variances from instrument to instrument in those circumstances. Could always be wrong, of course."

Yes, his and yours look almost identical but why remove Selmer logos? If the logos been there in the first place.
Mind that it would not be easy to remove them, esp. from lower jt.



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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: clarimad 
Date:   2019-09-14 23:12

The clarinet has since been returned to the seller and a full refund is now safely re-deposited in my bank account.

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 Re: Is this a Selmer full Boehm?
Author: clarinetcounsel 
Date:   2019-09-16 16:22

I played a full Boehm Selmer (Series 10S, my recollection is correct) in 1980s and 90s which resembled 99% of what are now shown in the pictures. As not shown in these pictures, its upper joint had a metal tenon (connecting to the lower joint) which was very rare at that time. After I switched to Selmer Signature and later Buffet Festival, I had left it idle for years and eventually its woods turned to be so dry with cracks on it so I just sent it to refuse collection point. Anyway, these pictures just remind me some old days with this full Boehm instrument.

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