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 Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2017-12-21 04:12

Is there a mouthpiece specially designed for playing with legere reeds?
I think vandoren and legere are not the best combination.

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: zhangray4 
Date:   2017-12-21 04:22

Well technically there are people who use Vandorens with Legeres. But it might not work for you.

Playeasy mouthpieces I think are designed with Legeres in mind. Link is: http://www.playnick.com/index.php?cmd=s&id=146

But I don't think you need to buy a particular mouthpiece just to play on a Legere.

-- Ray Zhang

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2017-12-21 04:45

I have tried the signature and the signature european cut.
With vandoren BD5 these are my results:
-The eurpean cut signature has a whistling sound in all records and in all dynamics.
-The signature has a beautiful and clean sound in all records playing piano and mf, but when you play loud and sharp it sounds like a whistle.
With a good wooden reed, this does not happen. Hopefully improve in that aspect, because legere, we can remove many headaches. They have very good things.
I'm looking forward to finding the reed / mouthpiece that allows me to play with the same quality as with the wooden reeds.
What combination do you use with legere?

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: KenJarczyk 
Date:   2017-12-21 04:48

Brad Behn offers a “Legere-ified” Zinner blank mouthpiece. Being a Behn, you know it’s good!

https://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/product-page/zinner-bb-clarinet-mouthpiece

Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo

Post Edited (2017-12-21 04:59)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: gavalanche20 
Date:   2017-12-21 04:55

One thing I've seen that has been said a lot about Legeres is that it can be fussy with positioning on the mouthpiece. From my personal experience I tend to get better results putting Legeres higher up than I would cane reeds.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2017-12-21 05:13

Thanks KenJarczyk. I wil write a mail to Behn.
Thanks!

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: J. J. 
Date:   2017-12-21 06:31

Everyone will have had different experiences and opinions. I will speak only for the European Signatures.

I personally find that Legeres work exceptionally well with Vandorens and Zinner mouthpieces. The Zinners, however, are already so dark to begin with that the overall effect is one I don’t like or strive for. But for some, it’s what they want.

The Behn Zinners when Legerified do work very well, albeit with the above caveat. It wouldn’t be for me, but I have no trouble seconding that recommendation. I don’t think Legeres work well with his own blanks at all, though.

I don’t think they’re great with D’addario Mouthpieces either, for what it’s worth.

As far as Vandorens go, I would recommend the M13 Lyre or B40 Lyre, depending on your preference for closed vs. open. Those two models have the ping and flexibility that is needed.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: sfalexi 
Date:   2017-12-21 06:56

I've had success on more "close tip" mouthpieces vs medium or open tip.

That doesn't mean medium or open tip mouthpeices won't work (I currently use a d'addario X10 with a legere european 3.75 and it works great).

But in general, a more close tip, medium to long lay, in my experience of mouthpiece trying, works best with legeres.

Mouthpiece makers are now showing which ones are legere friendly (backun's closer tip mouthpieces are advertised as legere friendly, some walter grabners, ted lane I believe is a legere artist and his mouthpieces were legere friendly, richard hawkins, etc.)

Most close tip zinners, and vandoren M-series are what I would recommend for legere friendly (and pomarico Emerald worked with legere for me, the ruby or more open did NOT!)

Alexi

Small Group Leader
US Army School of Music NCO Academy


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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Caihlen 
Date:   2017-12-21 08:35

I'm probably not qualified to comment but what the heck. I use Euro Sig's (2.5) on a Fobes Debut. My teacher loves the way it sounds. For better reference I play a LeBlanc Noblet 40.



Post Edited (2017-12-21 17:22)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: gwie 
Date:   2017-12-21 11:50

I play the Euro on my Behn HCV (close facing) with wonderful results. It also works very well on Behn's Zinner mouthpiece which I have as a backup, with a similar close facing.

Surprisingly, it works really well on the Vandoren 5RV! Time to give this old standby mouthpiece another go. :)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Mojo 
Date:   2017-12-21 17:13

I get along fine with a 3.5 reg cut on a Selmer C85 120.

MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: ClarinetRobt 
Date:   2017-12-21 19:23

"...I don’t think Legeres work well with his [Behn] own blanks at all, though."

FYI, I have had great results with my Behn Vintage (Rod Rubber) with 1.06 tip, Medium with Legere Euro Signature.
I'm also glad to see another member has better results with placing them slightly higher than a normal cane reed. This has worked well for me too. For example, I've gone down a 1/4 size to a 3.5 and slightly raise the reed on the mouthpiece with great response, intonation, and quality. At times a 3.75 is tad tubby feeling for me.

~Robert L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage, Lig: Ishimori, Reed: Aria 4, Legere Euro Signature 3.75, Horns: Uebel Superior, Ridenour Lyrique

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Klose 2017
Date:   2017-12-21 20:47

Just tried Playnick's master cut synthetic reeds, which are also very good if not better than Legere in my opinion. Work very well with playnick mouthpieces.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Slowoldman 
Date:   2017-12-22 02:48

I, too, have had good results with the Legere Euro's on my Behn Zinner mouthpiece. Mine is not one of his "Legere-ified" ones--I've had it for a few years. (Facing is similar to a VD M15 I believe.) I agree with other posters that a slightly higher reed position seems to work best in terms of sound quality as well as response.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Ed 
Date:   2017-12-22 03:16

Grabner mouthpieces are advertised as "Legere friendly"

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: gavalanche20 
Date:   2017-12-22 06:09

So what would be an example of a mouthpiece that ISNT Legere friendly? I haven’t tried a where it didn’t seem to work well, but granted I haven’t tried many.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: D Dow 
Date:   2017-12-22 22:09

Wondering when the legere reeds will play up to pitch..while they are very close to being in tune at times for more experienced clarinetist players they seem to dip below pitch on some notes...i like them alot but thing they at legere are still perfecting this aspect. The oboists I know still have trouble..but I do use them for practice but not entirely happy with them.

David Dow

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: jeffyx 
Date:   2017-12-23 06:40

Just wondering, what ligatures do you use for legere reeds? Personally, I use the rovner cloth one because the reed moves less. Are there any other good ligatures for the legere??

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: gwie 
Date:   2017-12-23 08:06

I use Ishimori ligatures on my Behn HCV and Zinner models.

I tried a Vandoren BD5 today, but needed something smaller around since the Legere's aren't as thick as V12/V21 reeds, so I tried a spare Rovner I keep around for students trying out different mouthpieces and it does the job.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: HANGARDUDE 
Date:   2017-12-23 17:45



Josh


Post Edited (2018-01-02 12:25)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2018-07-28 05:58

Hi!

Something new?
Has anyone tried something better?

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: DAVE 
Date:   2018-07-28 06:55

I recently won an audition playing a BD5 with a 3.25 Legere Soprano Sax Signature reed. I think that combo works pretty well.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Burt 
Date:   2018-07-28 06:57

I recently got a European cut Signature. It and the regular Signature work well with my setup. Neither is any good for me above C6, but I don't need those notes. I haven't decided yet which cut I like better.

Ridenour Libertas
Vandoren M-30
Luyben ligature



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-07-28 06:57

Have you seen this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0BmXMoPFHs



Personally I have been using Legere German cut 2.25 on a very short facing mouthpiece with a close tip. However, Ricardo Morales and Corrado Giuffredi are using the Signature European cut with some pretty good results. I have just ordered a passel of different strengths and look forward to posting results soon.


For those who haven't heard Maestro Giuffredi


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6CD0RxzpPQ



...............Paul Aviles



Post Edited (2018-07-28 14:45)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2018-07-28 20:05


Congralutations DAVE!

Now I use BD5 but for me works better with wood than plastic.
There must be something better to use plastic.

Regards.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2018-07-28 20:15

Hello Paul,

Yes I had seen it.
I think the CG mouthpiece that Corrado uses can work well with plastic.

Has anyone tried?

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-07-28 22:26

Hey Yador,

To answer your mouthpiece question directly, it is my opinion that there is no "special" Legere friendly mouthpiece. It may just be marketing, like the years of anyone wishing to sell their mouthpiece saying it plays "darker."

I have come to the conclusion though that the Legere standard Boehm reed size and cut may NOT be ideal for the plastic material of the reed on Boehm mouthpieces. Both Giuffredi and Morales use the soprano sax reed sized Signature Euro cut (Morales even states directly that he also uses Signature soprano sax reeds as well). Further more the ONLY success I had to this point having tried all the standard sized Legeres (all of those had some severely negative aspect) was with the German sized and cut reeds. With the German cut, all I have to do is change strength to adapt to a different mouthpiece (ANY mouthpiece that works for me).

Still waiting to test drive the Signature Euros!


.............Paul Aviles



Post Edited (2018-07-29 00:37)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: donald 
Date:   2018-07-29 13:19

I have only had "concert worthy" success with the Legere Soprano sax reed, though other combinations have been close

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Burt 
Date:   2018-07-29 23:29

Correction to my previous post:
Both the Signature and the European Signature work well up to C7, not C6.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: FwLineberry 
Date:   2018-07-30 01:36

I've had decent success with a Vandoren 5RV Lyre and excellent results with a Ridenour RAmt36.

One problem I've run into, though, on the Ridenour is the soprano sax and European signature are slightly wider than the tip of the mouthpiece. This hasn't really been a problem with the sax reed, but the thinner edges of the ES reed are easily damaged. I've had two ES reeds develop a split on the outside edge of the tip.

.
.
Backun Beta, Lyrique Libertas, Lyrique 570C
Ridenour RAmt36, Vandoren 15RV Lyre mouthpieces
Rovner Dark and Rovner Versa ligatures
Legere reeds

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: tucker 2017
Date:   2018-07-30 15:45

Both Fobes and Behn bass mouthpieces work great with Legeres! For me, anyway.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: D Dow 
Date:   2018-07-31 21:54

From extensive testing..

Euro cut works well on

Concept Selmer very well..in tune and not flat...sound is rich and vibrant..no issues for me.




Vandoren M30 I find this is also good..but like most vandoren pitch is a hair low on throat Bb on this

Hawkins pieces

the Euro cuts work very well no issues tuning and range..it is a go

Vandoren B40

Less than enthused here..sound is reluctant and stuffy at times...even with various sizes of Euro cuts..

B40 Lyre

the Euro cut here dissapoint here....so not a plus side..alright but somewhat reluctant to speak


Bd5 not great..the Euro cuts seems to sound okay but pitch in the throat range is flat beyond..i am using the 13 series here...unnaceptable

David Dow

Post Edited (2018-07-31 21:55)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2018-07-31 23:36

From my experience, the mouthpiece that best sounds with Legere European Cut is the Play Easy B3, but the the pitch is not good.

Could be a good option if the pitch was good.
Everything else I've tried sounds terrible.

Regards.

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-08-01 00:44

Yador,



Are you speaking of the Signature European Cut ? It seems like Giuffredi and Morales are using mouthpieces other than the PlayEasy brand. They are freely endorsing Legere backed up by their actual playing success with the Signatures. Morales also speaks of using the Signature Soprano Sax reeds (a quarter strength softer and perhaps more aggressive sounding?). Have you tried those?


I was just in a repair shop where the tech was using the Signature soprano sax reeds on Bb clarinet as well. Those may present differently on mouthpieces than the Signature European Cut Bb clarinet reeds and require their own trial to determine how well they work.


As I have said, I went the other direction in size of reed. I use the demur German sized reeds that barely cover the window of the mouthpiece. Oddly they perform magnificently when placed carefully on the mouthpiece. I can use the Vandoren M13, or the Vandoren CL4 interchangeably with a 2.75 strength German cut Legere. The mouthpiece for this strength and cut Legere that I have relied on mostly of late is the ESM (Ernst Schreiber Michelstadt) MCK-1 (1.03mm opening and a 19mm long facing).


Going down a strength, I am now using Walter Grabner's (a Zinner based mouthpiece) "Chicago Facing" (advertised at 1.00mm opening and a 14.00mm length lay) with a 2.25 strength Legere German cut reed.


There seems to be a bit of a tendency for me to squeak every now and then, so my interest in the larger reeds (ones that will fully cover the mouthpiece facing) is an attempt to squelch this tendency. BUT I must emphasize that the sound, response and intonation are at parity with cane.


Oh, I forgot to add that all the mouthpieces I listed above, I had used successfully with Vandoren #4 Rue Lepic and #4 V21s. Just to be clear that these mouthpieces are not exclusively good for plastic reeds.



..................Paul Aviles



Post Edited (2018-08-01 00:59)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: shmuelyosef 
Date:   2018-08-05 04:11

Paul Aviles wrote:
Quote:

Yador,
Are you speaking of the Signature European Cut ? It seems
like Giuffredi and Morales are using mouthpieces other than the
PlayEasy brand. They are freely endorsing Legere backed up by
their actual playing success with the Signatures. Morales also
speaks of using the Signature Soprano Sax reeds (a quarter
strength softer and perhaps more aggressive sounding?). Have
you tried those?


Just for clarity, if I'm playing a #3 Signature European Bb Clarinet reed, I'm likely to have success with a 2.75 Signature Soprano sax reed? Is this what is implied?

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: donald 
Date:   2018-08-05 05:59

I find...
Legere euro cut Bb 3.5- just a bit too hard.
Legere sig sop sax 3.25- just right
V12 Bb 3- usually a bit soft
Vand blue box Bb 3- average is in the zone but quality too variable (I like the springier cane in the tip on these)
I hope this helps give a reference for the strength of the Legere sop sax 3.25...

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-08-05 07:18

Dear Shmuelyosef,



Referencing the above video of Ricardo Morales:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0BmXMoPFHs


At about :58 seconds, Morales states that he uses the Signature European 3.75 in the Orchestral setting. For solo work, he uses the Signature Soprano sax 3.5. Morales then further speaks of higher altitude cities such as Denver where he will use either a Signature European cut 3.25 or a Signature soprano sax 3.0.


I take that to mean that the quarter strength softer soprano is a rough equivalent (with some variance of sound and or resistance) to the Signature European cut.


I have received my first batch of Signature European cut reeds and I am settling in to the 3.0 strength on my short facing mouthpiece. With a little more time to see how things finally shake out, I'll place an order for some Signature soprano sax reeds.





................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: FwLineberry 
Date:   2018-08-05 08:27

Paul Aviles wrote:


> I take that to mean that the quarter strength softer soprano is
> a rough equivalent (with some variance of sound and or
> resistance) to the Signature European cut.


I bought those two reeds based on watching that video. I'd say this statement is accurate.

.
.
Backun Beta, Lyrique Libertas, Lyrique 570C
Ridenour RAmt36, Vandoren 15RV Lyre mouthpieces
Rovner Dark and Rovner Versa ligatures
Legere reeds

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: John G. 
Date:   2018-08-08 05:48

Just my personal .02 cents worth here, but mouthpiece makes NO difference. In my experience with Legere's (about 8 or so yrs now), finding the correct strength for whatever your mouthpiece is what's INCREDIBLY important. Keep in mind that for some strange (and I hate it) reason, the different "cuts" of Legere reeds are NOT the same strength-wise across the spectrum. A Classic Cut #3 is definitely not the same as a Signature Series #3. It's softer by about 1/4-1/2 strength. So if you've been playing on a Classic #3, go for a 2.75 or maybe even a 2.5 Signature. I haven't tried the Euro cut reeds, so can't comment on where they fit in.
I've also found that placement is important, mostly because the cold, hard fact that they're difficult to see against the tip of a black mouthpiece sometimes. I think I have my reed where I want, but then I put my optivisor on and I'm usually way low with the reed from the tip. Yeah, getting older might have something to do with it too. ;-)

John

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Bob Bernardo 
Date:   2018-08-08 06:49

I've tried contacting Legere by phone to make them a special mouthpiece for their Signature reeds, but so far they've ignored my calls.

Maybe if they see this they will contact me! Spread the word if anyone has connections.

At this point, due to quality control issues I am no longer supporting Steuer reeds. However, the door is always open for them if they decide to talk about quality control. I lost a lot of money giving out free boxes of reeds to players when the reeds weren't consistent.

I will of course remain a Yamaha Artist.


Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces


Yamaha Artist 2015




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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: nellsonic 
Date:   2018-08-08 08:51

Bob, thank you for introducing me to Steuer reeds. I've been very happy with them, and so have many of my students. It's a shame that one has to come here to a post buried in a thread about Legere reeds to find out why your Steuer website has suddenly gone dormant, but now I know.....

Fortunately there are at least two other sources that one can order from online (one with very good prices).

I can't help but wonder what reeds you are using now.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: gavalanche20 
Date:   2018-08-09 07:22

Hi Bob, this is interesting news, like nellsonic you introduced me to Steuer as well and found them quite good, and I just so happened to have a distributor in my city, although I haven’t made the switch permanent. Out of curiosity what do you use now for reeds?

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: fernie121 
Date:   2018-08-09 21:15

Bob, I too would like to know what you use instead. I found the exclusives to work very nicely when doing orchestra work.



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Bob Bernardo 
Date:   2018-08-10 11:08

For now I will make my own reeds. I have a huge stock of very good French cane tubes. Maybe 200 pounds worth. I can make a reed in or about 3 to 6 minutes. I have a splitter, a sander, and then a wheel to cut the reeds, then a reed knife to fine tune the reeds. This is enough cane for the rest of my life.


Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces


Yamaha Artist 2015




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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-08-28 22:10

I have gotten to the point where I can provide, perhaps, some helpful info:


Firstly I think the title of this thread should be LIGATURES and Legere Reeds.....


but more about that later.


To address the original poster "Yador," I am finding that the Legeres are less forgiving on a few fronts, one is 'overblowing.' When Yador mentioned "whistling" above, I had that image in my head the next go around of reeds and sure enough into the trial about 30 seconds I got that sound (to which I sort of became habituated like the ticking of a clock in the room). With a little help from some of you Board guys on another thread, I was able to ascertain that the Legeres can easily pop up one to three harmonics between middle line "B" and top line "F."


My first suggestion to help that is to actually play INTO the "squeal" and find out exactly what it feels like to intentionally play the harmonic. Once you get that in your head, it is easier to avoid them when you don't want them (which is most of the time).


The next thing I noticed was with regard to ligatures. If the ligature is placed LOW on the Legere (line up the bottom of the ligature with the bottom of the reed) the reed is more vibrant and less likely to "squeak."


Next is tightness. If you apply very little pressure with the ligature, this gives you yet another level of resonance and surety.


This brings me to aggressive tightening. Since I tend this way naturally it was an easy part of the trials to really crank down on the Legeres to see what happens. In addition to stifling the sound somewhat there is a tendency for the traditional ligatures that wrap around the mouthpiece/reed to cause stress fractures in the butt of the Legere reeds (along the sides that protrude past the table). I did this to my European Signatures using a Bay ligature.


This brought me to the conclusion that ligatures that have an 'insert' configuration (and one that runs longitudinally.......Bonade style) would work best. The leatherette BGs are good for this. I did not have a BG Traditiona in my collection and therefore needed to wait for that.


Here's where it gets interesting.


For some reason (the length of the rails?) the BG Tradition not only puts the compression on the middle of the reed rather than the sides, but it also lends even more resonance to the Legeres which quite honestly does not make apparent sense to me. With the BG Tradition there is still a slight difference in the response between "cranked down" and loose, but it is more a preference with this ligature as opposed to being more of a necessity.


And finally with regard to the Signature Soprano Legere reeds:


I found that for my exceedingly short facing (14mm) the equivalent strength to a 3.25 European Signature is a 2.5 (Euro 3.25 = Sop Sax 2.5). So I believe that there is a strength "curve" to equivalent strengths so that the longer you go with facings, the closer the strength differential would be.


But the bottom line is that European Signatures and Soprano Sax Signature Legeres will work on any mouthpiece ..........with some re-training and sensitivity to how you clamp it down.





..................Paul Aviles



Post Edited (2018-08-29 00:58)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Tom H 
Date:   2018-08-29 08:34

Last couple of years I've used a Legere with my Van Doren 5RV mouthpiece. You have to get the tip of the reed lined up as exactly as possible with the top of the mouthpiece. It's not great, but saves on buying reeds for practicing. I'd never use it for performing. I use a #2, which is softer (I guess) than the 2 1/2 Van Doren reeds I use. Good advice from the music shop.

The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--Austin Macauley Publishers
tomheimer.ampbk.com/
austinmacauley.com/author/heimer-tom (PDF samples here)
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet--Sheet Music Plus


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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-08-29 09:24

Ah, since you did not identify which Legere I might assume that you refer to the
"standard cut" versions. Of those the ill fated Quebec cut was one with the most "spine" but for some reason it was discontinued. They still make the Legere Classic Series cut that actually have the dimensions of a Bb clarinet reed. I would agree hands down that those are clearly inferior in sound and would only be classified as a contingency in case of an emergency.


There are also Signature Bb clarinet reeds from Legere that I have never gotten to produce anything close to a decent sound for me. I went to the highest strength in the line and they all "collapsed" within ten or fifteen minutes.


The only ones that WORK are the "European Signature," the "Signature soprano sax reeds," and I would also include the German Cut Legere (though just a bit less overtone rich in sound than the other two version and may not be wide enough to work on some French mouthpieces).


If you have not tried the European Signature or the Signature soprano sax reeds yet, it is a night and day difference from all the others. They look a little goony (the Euros are really wide and maintain width down to the butt end, and the Signature sopranos are the same but really really short) but they seriously are as good as cane........with all the artificial reed benefits.


So, why bother with cane ever again? No point to it!!!!!





...............Paul Aviles



Post Edited (2018-08-29 09:42)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Mojo 
Date:   2018-08-29 17:21

If a mouthpiece seems sensitive to ligature placement, tension, choice, etc, check your mouthpiece table flatness with a straight edge. If it is not flat, you will be contacting the bumps and valleys differently depending on how you clamp the reed down. With a flat reed on a flat table, ligature choice and adjustment is less sensative.

MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: super20bu6 
Date:   2018-09-09 17:21

Francois Louis or Vandoren MO have worked well for me with the European cuts.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-09-09 20:08

M/O? Do you modify that or are you using a soprano sax M/O?



..............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Caihlen 
Date:   2018-09-09 20:29

My M/O works fine as well. Un-modified.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-09-10 00:49

Just looked at mine again. The pre-bent "reed well" of the M/O is smaller than the width of the Legere European Signature (for Bb clarinet). I suppose that it will "work" with the ligature not actually making contact across the horizontal supports at the top and bottom meant to hold the reed at these two points. This just doesn't seem practical to me when there are many other ligatures that work as prescribed with these reeds.




...............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-10-05 20:37

I wanted to add that I have been playing a couple of Clark Fobes mouthpieces for the last few weeks that produce stunning results with the Legere European Signature reeds. The sound is not only cane like, but it has an overtone rich sound that allows a projection through an ensemble when necessary.


Mr. Fobes made the order process (and return if it came to that) a pleasure. I made things more challenging by requesting a customization to shorten the lay by two millimeters (something that many mouthpiece makers would not entertain). That request was not a problem for Clark.


The result was a mouthpiece that matched the two major dimensions of a Grabner that I currently played. Interestingly, the result was a mouthpiece that played just as I hoped, with no changes of embouchure, air pressure or reed necessary. Who would have thought? It really just comes down to differences in SOUND. This sort of result allows ME to chose what mouthpiece is best for the prevailing circumstances.


It's wonderfully helpful to have the two basic dimensions available from the mouthpiece maker such as what Clark Fobes provides on his website:


https://www.clarkwfobes.com/pages/mouthpiece-chart



It takes the mystery out of finding the right mouthpiece.







..................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: NBeaty 
Date:   2018-10-05 23:45

1) As mentioned by Mojo, if the table of your mouthpiece is not flat or slightly concave, you're not going to enjoy Legeres.

2) If the facing is asymmetrical, the negative impact on the feel can be exacerbated by using a Legere. Particularly problematic given the difficulty (and arguably, futility) of adjusting Legeres.

3) A very flat curve (most extreme being German style mouthpieces, very close tip opening and very long curve) seems to not work as well for Legeres ON FRENCH MOUTHPIECES.

4) Any imperfections in the shape of the tip rail or side rails has dramatic repercussions when using Legeres. Since Legeres are more tempermental with reed placement, any issue with the rails will be exacerbated.


In my estimation from refacing mouthpieces for the better part of a decade is that a well designed mouthpiece for cane reeds will most likely work with Legere. A Legere will often call attention to imperfections in the mouthpiece design/finish. Issues that may not ruin the mouthpiece for use with cane reeds will often ruin it for use with legere. Oftentimes a Legere won't sweep these issues under the rug so easily.

To make a mouthpiece as comfortable as possible with Legeres, there are some compensations in design that can be made.

1) A slightly wider tip rail thickness will allow for more flexibility in reed placement, being less likely to have only that "one spot that works great, everything else is hell".

2) Avoidance of extreme facings. A mouthpiece with a 20mm long facing and 0.95mm tip opening or 14mm/1.20mm will likely lead to a bad day for legere usage.

3) Occasionally, opening the tip slightly will mellow out the occasional "plastic buzz" that can creep into the experience with Legeres, but it seems to be less of an issue with the European Cut.


I don't think any mouthpiece makers are trying to swindle people when they come up with a "legere-friendly" model. I do think it's often the case that players will try Legeres on a poorly designed/finished mouthpiece, have a bad experience, and write off the synthetic reeds altogether. Finding the appropriate strength with Legere is also paramount.

If a mouthpiece is well designed and well executed, an appropriate strength signature/signature European cut should get you at least 90% to the sound and feel you want. It should be obvious at this point that a number of prominent professional players are getting close to 100% on Legeres these days.

I have no trouble playing European cut 3.5 on my Behn Signature -6 with a 0.95mm tip opening and 36 (18mm) length.



Post Edited (2018-10-08 20:02)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: fernie121 
Date:   2018-10-06 00:05

Gregory agid uses a B40 with a 3.75 European cut Legere. He sounds amazing.



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: seabreeze 
Date:   2018-10-06 09:08

Paul,

Which of Fobes' models gave you what you want after the facing was shortened, the San Francisco, the Europa, the CWF, or the 10K?

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-10-06 15:05

Dear Seabreeze,


It's my understanding that it is only the San Francisco that is available in all the various above facings (though perhaps the 10K may also...... a third mouthpiece?). I thought that even if Clark would have been reluctant to alter his facings, the C12 would suffice. Fortunately the foreshortening was not a problem and it works great for me.



Dear NBeaty,


I would agree with your overarching premise that any well executed mouthpiece will work with Legere. However, point 3) from the first group above is not correct. If you look at the number of prominent German players who use Legere with great success, long/narrow facings work just fine. My year's long experience with my Wurlitzer M3+ mouthpiece (.90mm opening and 24.80mm long facing) was very successful with the Legere German cut reed. It was in fact the Geraman cut reeds that convinced me of Legere's overall viability with most mouthpieces. I took those same reeds to French mouthpieces and had similar results. The only issue is that the VERY narrow width of the German sized reed will not work with some fairly wide Boehm mouthpiece windows. Oddly one example of a window too wide for German cut Legeres is the Fobes. I have since switched to the European Signatures.


Additionally I'd have to say that wider tip and side rails do the same thing to plastic that they do to cane. The greater surface area on which the reed vibrates causes the sound to have fewer overtones, and usually a less responsive attack. Although I've heard some pretty amazing players get good results from the Vandoren M30 which is a pretty "thuddy" sounding mouthpiece for me.


The modified C12 Fobes mouthpieces of mine have very narrow side and tip rails which give me a very clear and overtone rich end result (with Legere #3.25 European Signature and #2.50 Soprano Sax Signature)





...............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: TomS 
Date:   2018-10-06 22:57

Well ... I thought that the Legere European Signature B-flat clarinet cut is, in fact, a soprano sax reed ...? It's a lot wider and looks odd on my French MPs ...

I FINALLY ordered just one 2.75 strength European Signature B-flat reed (says so on the box) and it is a game changer for me! A tiny bit too soft, but amazing! I am afraid to go to a #3.0 because it may be too stiff ... need a 2 7/8 strength ... maybe just look for a slightly more resistive MP ...

I went thru my big box of MPs and found that a good one was a VD 5RV-lyre/88/non 13 series profile. Barrel is a Muncy Diamond 65 mm and clarinet is R13/greenline. With my best voicing and pucker or drawstring embouchure, I can play the entire range of the clarinet with consistent timbre and blowing resistance. With a similarly soft cane reed, it has dips and peaks in the sound and response.

IMHO, you can play softer Legere reeds than cane, and get even better results, don't have to have the embouchure pressure and work so hard! Relax and enjoy!

I concur with most of the others ... this reed was not good with more open MPs like the M30. I gets mushy, diffused and very flat above high D. With this 2.75 strength, it also plays a few cents flatter overall than my cane reeds.

So, I might just borrow a bunch of 5RV-lyres and pick one out that works better with this reed ... I wish they had 1/8 strengths!

Tom

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-10-07 03:05

The actual Soprano Sax Signature reeds are SHORT. If you use a BG Tradition ligature and place the top edge just below the line of ligature, only half the Reed is actually being held by the ligature. [need to clarify that there is a 1/2 inch overlap of ligature past bottom of the Soprano Sax Signature reed....but they are still really short]


Somehow, the Soprano Sax reeds are harder. On about an 18mm long facing, you'd want to try 1/4 strength softer than the European Signature. For my short 14mm facing, I have to go 3/4 of a strength softer.



............ .Paul Aviles.



Post Edited (2018-10-08 19:36)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Mojo 
Date:   2018-10-08 17:10

TomS,

Order a few more 2.75/3 Legeres over time and you may get one that feels like a 2 7/8. This is what I do on BC rather than alter them.

MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: NBeaty 
Date:   2018-10-08 20:17

Paul,

I edited to clarify the point about flat curves and legeres to clarify it's referring to French mouthpieces with French cut legeres. German mouthpieces and reed cuts are obviously not the same.

The M30/BD5/B40 as well as the newest offerings from Selmer have excessively wide rails. They're also very rectangular, just sort of a brick that has little artistic value. I don't think this thickness and shape is a good idea, as it does lend itself to being "thuddy" in articulation as you mentioned, as well as sounding dampened. I was simply saying that a thin tip rail can make a mouthpiece a bit less forgiving on reed placement (below, at, or above the tip rail) with legeres.


The ideas I mentioned are some of the subtle adjustments that I make when someone requests a legere-ified mouthpiece. At the end of the day, it's still in the range of what I consider to be acceptable for my style of mouthpiece refacing. If I have a mouthpiece that is playing great with cane but legeres feel a bit off, I will go through these parameters and adjust as needed.



None of these adjustments are huge, still a mouthpiece that plays well with cane also.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2018-10-28 04:19

Does anyone know which is the current model that most resembles the old Quebec court?

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2018-10-28 06:00

I would say hands down the German cut Legeres. They are excellent sounding reeds with a solid center to them. Their dimensions are intended for the much narrower German facing mouthpiece so they may not cover all Boehm mouthpiece windows (side to side). But if you carefully center them on ones that do (such as all the Vandorens) they are great.......only second to the Signature Soprano Sax reeds in sound and response.




............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: DSMUSIC1 
Date:   2018-10-28 07:10

"Is there a mouthpiece specially designed for playing with legere reeds?
I think vandoren and legere are not the best combination."

I will start off by saying that I am a Legere artist and have played these reeds in just about every professional setting and absolutely love them.

I am not aware of a mouthpiece specifically designed for playing legere reeds but as they are becoming very popular I am hearing that some designers are working toward that goal.

The numbers on my mouthpiece are the numbers that I like to play: 8,14,24,38, T=118. The measurements of the window, tip, side rails and baffle depth and shape are what I am most comfortable playing with Legere or cane reeds.

With that being said, I approached it the other way around. I found the Legere reed type and strength that matched the facing and mouthpiece that I currently play.

This is the Link to my Soundcloud page: https://soundcloud.com/dennis-strawley

The Eb Clarinet solo selections are all being played on a Vandoren M30 or a James Kanter Eb Clarinet mouthpiece. I am playing a Legere Bb Clarinet Signature Series Euro cut strength # 4 1/4 or #4 on both mouthpieces.

On The Clarinet Selections I am playing a Jim Kanter "D" Facing mouthpiece with a Legere Euro cut Signature Series strength # 4 1/4 Bb Clarinet reed.

On the Tenor Sax piece I am playing a cane reed. I have not yet experimented with what Legere I will play, but I will certainly not change the mouthpiece to fit the reed. I will find the Legere reed to fit my mouthpiece.

Start off with your baseline, the mouthpiece that you are comfortable on and that you currently play. Then experiment to find the type of reed and strength that work with your mouthpiece.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2018-10-28 16:33

Thanks you very much Paul!
I will test this reeds.

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Steven Ocone 2017
Date:   2018-10-28 16:38

I may have some Quebec cut clarinet reeds on clearance. I won't know the strength till Monday.

Steven Ocone
Ann & Steve's Music

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Grabnerwg 
Date:   2019-01-20 20:32

Forgive me for opening this old thread, but I have a few comments to add.

I am late in trying out the Legere European cut reeds, but at the urging of a customer, I got some to try with some of the facings he was interested in.

Needless to say, I am very impressed with the purity of tone that I was able to achieve.

I did notice quickly that my pitch dropped considerably in the throat tones. However, in my case, it was nothing that putting on a 1 mm shorter barrel wouldn't correct. (Easy for me to do, I probably have about 40 barrels around here right now).

I did want to pick up on a point that Ned Beatty made in another thread. The Legere European cut mouthpiece will find and point out the flaws in your mouthpiece. As a result, I spent two hours working on my best prototype, smoothing out sharp or uneven edges, finding and destroying small bumps, etc.

I was working to get a pure altissimo legato tone, and using the solo in the second movement of the Schubert Unfinished to do it. Using the now "corrected" mouthpiece and a 3 3/4 reed, I was able to achieve the purity of tone I required. Guess what? My Vandoren v12 tester reeds work better too. As things stand, I am planning on using this combination of this mouthpiece and the Legere European model reed in my next orchestra
concert.

Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com

P.S. I have a joke for you.

What is the difference between a good mouthpiece and a great mouthpiece?

Two hours of a craftsman's time.

What is the difference between a great mouthpiece and a piece of junk?

The third hour.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: EaubeauHorn 
Date:   2019-01-21 00:23

I was finally told recently that my low pitch problem was due to using a Legere reed. Glad to see someone else mention it. I could not get up to pitch even using the short barrel. On a Fobes Debut on a Ridenour.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-01-21 01:11

I too have the low pitch problem but I can't pin ALL of my specific issues on Legere. Since I came off a year of playing a VERY soft reed/mouthpiece combination using German reeds on German mouthpieces via a modified Boehm barrel on a Boehm clarinet, some of my issues are from that reconfiguration of embouchure.


For the record I am using a 63mm length barrel on an R13 Greenline (perhaps may not need every single millimeter of shortness there, but I feel comforted having the room if I need it. Those troublesome trumpet players!).




................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: shmuelyosef 
Date:   2019-01-21 05:00

IME, the intonation issue (playing flat) is much less of a problem with the original Signature reeds (compared to the EU style), which I actually prefer on clarinet. On baritone sax, I strongly prefer the Signature to the EU Sig...the EU signature has a very thin sound in the lower register, and it is difficult to get the volume needed for a full big band low end.



Post Edited (2019-01-23 23:35)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: EaubeauHorn 
Date:   2019-01-21 20:35

So a question maybe someone can answer.....with the Fobes Debut and the Ridenour, I did not have intonation problems with the Classic Legere, but simply was too flat overall with the short barrel. I was doing quite well but basically gave up due to not being able to play in a group because of the pitch problem. Is this likely to be solved with the Euro Legere? ....and, I don't even know why a soprano sax reed is being discussed here. Are people using them on clarinets?

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: J. J. 
Date:   2019-01-21 21:08

Yes, people like Ricardo Morales have been using soprano sax signatures on clarinet. In fact, it was the popularity of their usage that led Legere to experiment with a wider profile reed, resulting in the European Signatures for Bb clarinet. Some people still prefer the soprano sax reeds, though.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: fernie121 
Date:   2019-01-21 21:12

I use a BD5, non 13 series, refaced by Bob Bernardo with a Legere EC reed on a 66mm barrel with my Ridenour G1 clarinet. The intonation is spot on all up and down the clarinet. So yes, the EC does bring the pitch down. Just use a shorter barrel or use a higher pitch mouthpiece like I do and it should be fine.

I do use a 65mm barrel if it’s very cold. But this is not often here in Southern California.



Post Edited (2019-01-21 21:14)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-01-21 21:17

First let me take up the Legere European Signature clarinet reed. A few years ago when they first came out, I ordered a few. At the time I was exclusively using the Vandoren M/O ligature which as an intrinsic part of its architecture has a channel or cradle that fits a typical clarinet reed (Vandoren and pretty much any other). HOWEVER, the Legere European Signature reed is rather wide. Right out of the package from which I received it I thought it was a mistake. It looked like a saxophone reed to me AND it would NOT fit into the channel of the Vandoren M/O ligature. I sent it back without so much as trying it (Amazon is a wonderful tool).

I mention that because the Legere Signature Soprano Sax reeds are the same width as the Legere European Signature clarinet reeds. The only difference in SIZE, is that they are shorter (both are about 14.2mm wide; the Euro is 65mm long; the Soprano Sax reed is 58mm long).


BOTH the Legere European Signature clarinet reed and the Legere Signature Soprano Sax reeds are the BEST synthetic reeds on the market right not FOR Bb CLARINET!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0BmXMoPFHs&t=1s


I've pointed to this video a number of times because at about 00:57 Ricardo goes through which Legere reeds he uses and why. He has in fact used Legere reeds almost exclusively for the last three to five years. And he's not a bad clarinet player.


Now, poor pitch results IS a good reason to give up on a piece of equipment such as a mouthpiece that sounds and responds great, but........



If the pitch issue (as in the Legere lowness) can be compensated without negatively affecting internal pitch of the whole horn (and so far this has been MY experience), such as short tube notes being sharp while long tube notes are still flat, then there is no reason not to make the adjustment through investment in shorter barrels. Yes, the issue (as in my case) may be that the length of barrel is not readily available, but you just need to rattle enough cages!






......................Paul Aviles



Post Edited (2019-01-21 23:21)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2019-01-21 23:35

J. J. wrote:

> Yes, people like Ricardo Morales have been using soprano sax
> signatures on clarinet.

I know about Morales. But who else among the stars of clarinet is using soprano sax legeres?

Karl

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-01-22 00:19

Gosh ...........I feel a little slighted. :-)


Of course Morales is one of the brightest, so it should be ok for most of the rest of us. Just guessin'.



And there is Corrado Giuffredi. I just checked the "artists" section of the Legere website and that's not where I saw it (maybe someone else has the reference for the sax reeds).


Also a LOT of German and Austrian players use the German cut Legeres which work on many of our mouthpieces too (as long as you're careful to make sure the thinner reed covers the window). Those reeds are just barely less effective than the European Signature and Signature Soprano Sax reeds (on Boehm mouthpieces that is).




.............Paul Aviles


P.S. It almost sounds like you dismiss the idea out of hand. Order some through Amazon. If they don't work for you, return them no harm done. And you may be pleasantly....shocked.



Post Edited (2019-01-22 00:25)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2019-01-22 00:52

Paul Aviles wrote:

> P.S. It almost sounds like you dismiss the idea out of hand.
> Order some through Amazon. If they don't work for you, return
> them no harm done. And you may be pleasantly....shocked.
>
No, that wasn't the point of my question. Whenever I read or hear that "many" or "people" are doing something or "they [many people, etc.] say that..." I simply want to know who (or in this case, who else besides Ricardo Morales) is doing or saying whatever it is.

As a matter of fact, I have tried the soprano sax Legeres and for over a year played the Euro Signature clarinet reeds exclusively before I went back to cane. I have no quarrel with the idea of using either, and I've written here myself, they work much better on some mouthpieces than on others. I was interested to read Walter Grabner's comment because it confirms that mouthpieces *can* be optimized to work well with Legeres. I'm also very familiar with Morales's playing both before and since he started using them - the Philadelphia Orchestra is my home team.

Not questioning the use of Legeres of any kind (though I prefer the Euro clarinet reeds, myself), just J.J.'s reference to "People like Morales..." There aren't many like Morales, and I wondered out of curiosity which people who *are* like him were using the soprano sax reeds.

Karl

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: donald 
Date:   2019-01-22 02:55

Let's see if this works....

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: saxlite 
Date:   2019-01-22 02:55

I have to agree with statements made above by various players- I find that Legere reeds play well, but play flat. I always use a 66mm barrel with cane reeds, but must resort to my 65mm barrel when using Legere European cut. I also notice that I can't play up to pitch on my alto sax unless I cram the mouthpiece all the way in. So, for me, I'll continue to use the Legeres with the caveat- "watch out for flatness"!
Jerry

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Mojo 
Date:   2019-01-22 18:12

Does anyone have an acoustic theory as to why Legeres play flat for so many players?

MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2019-01-22 18:37

No, but just as a physical sensation, I think the tips are much thinner relative to the rest of the vamps and that influences the pitch. I think if I use a cane reed that's as flexible as a Legere at the tip, my pitch goes lower if it doesn't close completely (and, conversely, a stiffer tip makes my pitch go up).

But that's a subjective interpretation of how the reeds feel when I play them. There must be an acoustical explanation for the more general idea that softer reeds made of any material tend to play flatter (in pitch) and harder ones tend to play sharper. It isn't all just a function of the embouchure pressure needed. Maybe something to do with the mass of the reed?

Karl

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-01-22 20:25

The intuitive guess (and I stress guess) is that HIGHER PITCH equals more vibrations (cycles) per unit of time (like tightening the strings or your violin or guitar). So perhaps the material, as good as it may be these days for replicating timbre and response, is not quite able to flex fast enough. That may account for those who are waiting in the wings for a better analog.





..................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: fernie121 
Date:   2019-01-23 00:44

I thought there were more vibrations when you play louder. Which is why when you play louder the clarinet tends to go flat and softer it goes sharp. So wouldn’t that mean there are more vibrations in a Legere reed? Or am I missing something here.



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-01-23 02:02

I would say you are conflating frequency with amplitude (amplitude being total energy of system).



Or, you refer to simply how many of us play flatter as we play louder. That is a symptom of the reed having to make the same number of oscillations, only bigger. The tendency is to not keep the same balance of energy in your embouchure to "hold things together," getting the same effect as when you loosen your embouchure on a less loud note.






.................Paul Aviles

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: shmuelyosef 
Date:   2019-01-23 23:24

Quote:

Mojo said:

"If a mouthpiece seems sensitive to ligature placement, tension, choice, etc, check your mouthpiece table flatness with a straight edge. If it is not flat, you will be contacting the bumps and valleys differently depending on how you clamp the reed down. With a flat reed on a flat table, ligature choice and adjustment is less sensative."


When I first switched to Legere reeds (so far only on soprano & bass clarinet, and baritone sax) I experimented with my extensive collection of ligatures (another story). As much as I do not generally like them, I have found that the Rovner designs seem to work OK without much sensitivity as to position or tightness aggression. I have, however, discovered that for Bb clarinet, the Bonade inverted ligatures (a quirky and little-discussed product) works extremely well and is the easiest to position the Legere reeds (they are slippery little devils). For some smaller diameter mouthpieces, I found that I needed to add a couple of thin techcork strips to the tightening side of the mouthpiece to fit, and this also improved the ease of application/tightening.



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: shmuelyosef 
Date:   2019-01-24 00:12

In full disclosure, my undergraduate studies were in acoustics in an electrical engineering department. I have often referred to the New South Wales Dept. of Physics website on The Clarinet, and there is some insight there regarding pitch shifting.

...de rigeur is a review of the basics of mouthpiece/reed/embouchre:

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/clarinetacoustics.html#reed

The relevant 'meat', however, is the section a few paragraphs down that is labelled "Playing loudly and softly", however, for this discussion, it could as well be labelled "Playing flatter or sharper"

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/clarinetacoustics.html#pff

We all know that blowing hard (high pressure) and playing loud tends to make the clarinet flat. A resistive reed also makes the pressure higher. My hypothesis is that the Legere reeds are slightly more 'lossy' than cane reeds in general, which is why the Classic reeds were always stuffy to play on. In a reed being played optimally, the reed hits the mouthpiece and stays closed for a brief time (call this the "dwell") then pops open. While our airflow drives the reed closed, it is the reeds 'return power' that reopens the reed. A stiff reed with no loss returns much faster that a floppy reed with some loss. This means that inherently this is a 'drag' on the oscillation frequency.

If you look further down in the document:
http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/clarinetacoustics.html#acousticimpedance

The discussion of acoustic impedance is very important and also has some intuitive interpretation. I think most of us that are engaged in this discussion understand that the body of the clarinet acts as a resonator that filters the input from the mouthpiece/reed and, in fact, acts as a control point to only allow the reed to oscillate within a small range of frequencies. We all also know that there are strong notes (middle chalumeau, e.g.) and weak notes (throat tones and altissimo) on the clarinet. The strong notes are fingerings that have a narrow resonance (small range of frequencies with a strong emphasis) and the weak notes (larger range of frequencies with a weak emphasis). It should be no surprise therefore, that the throat tones exacerbate what some have experienced with the Legere EU sig reeds.

A simple summary, therefore, is that the spring constant and lossiness of the reed can make a reed more or less susceptible to the influence of the clarinet resonance structure (as an aside, we all know of mouthpieces that play sharp or flat, and a similar argument applies to the facing curves...some more lossy or biased than others). Legere is making reeds from a material that has quite different mechanical parameters than cane (although it is much more consistent than cane). In pursuing a better responding reed, they have made them progressively thinner, which changes the dynamics and leads to the discussions we are having.

Regarding facings, I would hypothesize that there could well be a variation of facing design that is more optimal for the Legere reeds; for example, varying the curvature to match the binding modulus change as the reed curves over the facing curve could be an excellent strategy. We all know, for example, how mouthpieces respond differently to Rico vs. Vandoren reeds, and yet we are surprised when polycarbonate responds differently than cane.



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Arnoldstang 
Date:   2019-01-24 00:35

To Mojo, this is a great question!
There might be no correlation here but with the oboe reed the subject of stability Involves the heart/tip dimensions and their proportions If the tip is too long with a given heart dimension then the upper octave sags. With many oboe reeds the heart/tip demarcation is much greater than with clarinet reeds but still this tact might be worth investigating.

Freelance woodwind performer

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Mojo 
Date:   2019-01-24 19:02

++++++++
The relevant 'meat', however, is the section a few paragraphs down that is labelled "Playing loudly and softly", however, for this discussion, it could as well be labelled "Playing flatter or sharper"

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/clarinetacoustics.html#pff
++++++++

I do not see how this properly illustrates playing flatter and sharper. If you play flatter (at the about the same volume and pressure) the shape of the humped curve would change due to your embouchure loosening. You would not nessessarily move up and down the right side of the humped curve as shown for loudness changes.

I can see how a reed stiffness can change the humped curve too. But for a Legere reed cut and strength that feels as comfortable to the player as a cane reed, I can not (yet) see how it would create the flatness that is being reported.

I also have wondered about the air flow these three illustrations show for increasing loudness. They predict lower air flows with increasing volume. I can see why this happens at very loud playing when you are clipping the reed shut. But in general when we play louder, we sense that we are using more air, not less.

This is getting a bit off the Legere topic but conversations do meander in life.

MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: EaubeauHorn 
Date:   2019-01-24 20:47

"we all know of mouthpieces that play sharp or flat".....is that by brand or by individual? If by brand, I'd like to find one that plays sharp to counter the flatness that caused me to just give up on clarinet even though listeners said I sounded great. Just flat. I did order a soprano sax 2.75 to give a try to, but only after realizing that i had tossed all my reeds because I had given up and was trying to sell the clarinet, with zero response on local Craigslist, and am unwilling to basically give it away.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-01-25 00:25

Dear EaubeauHorn,



WHOA!!!!!! Don't quit !!!!!!!


Don't give up on pitch. I can say without fear of contradiction there are players in community groups who play far more out of tune than you (and that's WITHOUT hearing you).



Going sharper doesn't seem to screw up a clarinet's internal pitch as much as trying to play lower. So you have plenty of room to figure out a solution.


Maybe plastic reeds are not in your wheel house. They do lower pitch and if lowness is a serious issue, I'd start there.


Then there is the barrel. I say barrel because there are so many other factors to mouthpieces that if you find one that works particularly well for you, you should find a way to make that work. When you say SHORT BARREL, what length is your "short barrel?" If it's 65mm, then there is still one millimeter to go in commonly found barrels (don't feel constrained to Ridenour). You can also get particularly short (custom sized to your need) barrels from Dr. Alan Segal:


http://clarinetconcepts.com


Even the great Frank Cohen (former principal of the Cleveland Orchestra) uses a 62mm barrel. And I use two different 63mm barrels on a Buffet R13 Greenline.


And finally mouthpiece. The Richard Hawkins mouthpieces are still higher pitch as well as the standard Vandoren for example (without the "13" designation on them):


https://www.wwbw.com/Vandoren-5RV-Lyre-Series-Bb-Clarinet-Mouthpiece-483902.wwbw


Oh and I assume you use some tuner to check this for yourself (or phone app...there are a bunch). A-N-D, when playing in community groups you want to be able to play "higher" than standard pitch to keep up with the trumpets (God, the trumpets). So when you figure all this out with a tuner be able to play with the needle bumping around +5 or so (just to be safe).





...................Paul Aviles



Post Edited (2019-01-25 00:29)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: mdj 
Date:   2019-02-02 16:13

This thread has been most helpful and timely as I have been considering exploring Legere's for my setup.

I have been using a Clark Fobes San Francisco MP with the traditional VD Blue Box 3.5 for the last few years.

Just ordered a Legere Euro 3.25 and 3.5 to test out. Hoping for favorable results.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-02-02 16:36

Is that a CF+ facing?



I don't know how you play, of course, but leave open the possibility that you may also want to try a 3.0.




..................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: mdj 
Date:   2019-02-03 13:34

Yes, I use the CF+ facing. Thank you for suggesting the 3.0. I will most certainly do so if I find the 3.25 to be too resistant to work with.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: avins 
Date:   2019-07-01 13:26

I 've used the legere in the past and recently came back to the clarinet , I dont know what to say . I have a new VD BD5 and legere Signature 3 1/4 and some european cut 3 1/4 and one 3 1/2 .

I also have some v12- 3 1/2 and a couple of v12- 3 , as well as Blue box 3 and some 3 1/2 . I like most the V12 3 , of course thats all on BD5 , my problem is that where I can get quite easilly to high G and A , with the cane reeds , I cannot do this with the legers , which ever way I position the reed on the MP.
I must say that upto C the legere are just fantastic,( BTW , I find it easier with the reg signature vz the european cut to go above the C)

I would appreciate some insight on this issue , I am asking this just before perhaps ordering a 3 3/4 Euro and a 3 1/2 Signature , which may solve the problem ??? ..
Thanks
Avins

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-07-01 15:41

My guess would be that going up a strength on Legere will NOT solve an issue with playing higher notes.



The description you provide leads me to believe that what you do to hit higher notes is to bite down a bit on the reed. For cane, this is not automatically a problem because you are decreasing the size of the tip opening (and shortening the length of reed) and allowing just the thin, compliant tip of the cane to do what it does best. With plastic, the material will ultimately only be as compliant as the strength that you order.


I have come to this conclusion two separate ways.


1. If you continually increase the strength of Legeres to find where you "top out," you reach a strength where it just seems unresponsive almost mushy........they just don't play. I realized in the end that over nearly fifty years of playing cane, the natural response to "hard" is to bite (or bear down) on a reed to get the tip more involved. However, as I said above, the harder Legere is just that, harder. The material at the very tip is that much less willing to vibrate (unlike cane).


2. In some extreme weather conditions such as just before a big storm, the barometric pressure will dramatically decrease suddenly. Air is less willing to vibrate when the molecules are allowed to be spaced further apart. So what happened to me several times in the last three years was literally not being able to get a sound out of my horn. The plastic reed became untenably hard in those moments and what I should have done was dig through my drawer for Legere strengths that were at least a half strength softer. Live and learn.


So back to your issue. Playing higher is really (or should be) just a function of pushing more air (or focusing more air). This is where having some recorder experience under your belt can be helpful. Many folks use "voicing" to focus the air so that it moves faster across the reed for higher notes. Or you can just consciously push a bit more with your abdominal muscles for higher notes.


You need to strive for the least amount of embouchure change for changes in register. In fact none at all is ideal.





.................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: avins 
Date:   2019-07-01 22:04

Thanks Paul
I agree with everything you say and you are right as far as not biting the reed for the high's. thats how I do with my cane reeds , I can go up with cane , in legato or staccato , and its true that with the legeres I can go a little higher legato-wise but no way can I do staccato above c , , probably , , as you mention , the thicker unforgiving tip of the legere euro has to be tackled differently ,

I think this is the reason (thicker tip) as I find it a little easier to go up with the regular signature 3 1/4 a little higher, maybe due to its thinner tip .
I dont want to give up as the legers are so great overall upto that high c.

BTW Paul . I mentioned to you in another thread that I want to try a smaller tip MP like the m15 , in order to solve the higher notes issue , but perhaps thats not the solution after all .

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-07-01 23:44

For me as a classical music clarinetist, the smaller tip opening mouthpieces offer an amount of "built in" control. The timbre and pitch "lock in" easier whereas an open mouthpiece has to be controlled all the time to get a consistent sound/pitch. Of course, if you need a really good, strong lip vibrato, then a more open mouthpiece is more helpful.


It may also be the case that a more open mouthpiece gives you the impression that you need to squeeze more on the reed to achieve high notes.......but that's a theory on my part.





............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2019-07-02 03:27

How are the new Backun mouthpiece working with Legere?

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: fernie121 
Date:   2019-07-02 03:31

I used the R model for a while. Very pretty sound with the Legere EC but unfortunately it has a far too small sound. I’ve gone back to my BD5.



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: nellsonic 
Date:   2019-07-02 10:46

fernie121 wrote:

> I used the R model for a while. Very pretty sound with the
> Legere EC but unfortunately it has a far too small sound.
> I’ve gone back to my BD5.
>

Yes, this. My experience has been the same with the G model. I'm happily using it with the Legere reeds when playing chamber music with strings, but it wasn't cutting it at all in a concert band environment - not nearly enough power. Will be using cane reeds there on the same mouthpiece.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: avins 
Date:   2019-07-02 11:37

Hi Ferenie, I see you use the Euro #4 reed , on bd5 , I would like to believe that perhaps a harder one would make it easier to play at the higher register , I have the the euro 3.5 which is not really better than the 3 1/4 -actually, this is quite in line with what Paul is saying that harder doesnt improve things .
I just want to make believe . BTW the reg signature 3 1/4 is actually better than the euro for the top register , for me anyway
Thanks

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2019-07-03 03:09

Hi Ferniel21,

Interesting what you comment about the small sound. What number did you use to try the Vocalise R? Is it possible for the H model to have a bigger sound?

Thanks all very much!

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: fernie121 
Date:   2019-07-03 05:57

I’ve never tried the H model. Only the R and G. Perhaps you could get better results with the H. I used a 3.75 and 4 with the R depending on a number of factors. I found the R had a far more beautiful sound than the G.



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Yador 
Date:   2019-07-03 12:40

Thanks fernie!

tukaram2000@hotmail.com

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: avins 
Date:   2019-07-03 12:52

I feel quite stupid here , as I've just discovered my fault (at not being able to get to those higher notes ... ) when closing up the bottom and middle parts I didnt align them properly , this means that the connection part is not absolutely aligned which is detrimental to the sealing when using right index finger for C and up
avins

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2019-07-03 13:35

Oh, so you are referring to third space (on the staff) "C?"



The bridge key could also be out of adjustment as well. The pad above your right index finger needs to close securely to get all the notes below that point (the lowest notes of the horn speak easier and may speak even when that pad is not closing quite right), AND you need to be able to play the "Bb" that sits above the first ledger line above the staff using just the first fingers of both hands (the one-and-one "Bb"). So what you say is the problem when you don't have the clarinet lined up right is that the pad between the first and second fingers of the left hand comes down completely BEFORE the pad above the right first finger completely seals. The reverse is more common, where you try to use the one-and-one "Bb" but that note won't speak because the pad in between the left hand fingers remains slightly open.


Chances are that there is still some "adjusting" needed even when you bridge mechanism is lined up perfectly. If you are not able to make adjustments to the keys, you should have a repair tech tweak that for you.


Of course you did mention that you were able to play more notes (up to "G" and "A") with the cane reeds opposed to Legere. What type of reed you use should not affect this scenario.






...............Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: avins 
Date:   2019-07-03 14:49

Paul, what you describe is the exact problem , ijust have to find the right alignment position for the bridge key , its a little too alignment sensitive so i will take it to the technician.Like you say it also affects cane but cane reeds , i suppose, are a little more forgiving ,anyway all is well now thanks
Avins

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: fernie121 
Date:   2020-01-22 20:12

I have a question directed at Paul or anyone with experience using German Legere reeds on French mouthpieces. How does the strength compare to other reeds? I’m comfortable with a 4 Aria reed (or V12 3,5). I’ve noticed my Behn mouthpiece has a narrower window than any of my other mouthpieces so I’d like to see if the narrower German Legere works well.

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: igalkov 
Date:   2020-01-22 22:14

Why do not ask Brad himself?

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: avins 
Date:   2020-01-22 23:15

Just as an update ,
I have today 3 MPs M15 M30 and BD5 , and have found my optimal reeds combinations with MPs , at least for now.

I use Blue VD 3 and 3.5 (as they are not consistant from reed to reed ) with the BD5
Legere Euro 3.25 , 3.5 and 3.75 on M15 and M30 but mostly I use the 3.5 , as also the legeres are not consistant in strenth , I find that somehow the Legeres prefer a smaller tip(M15) per same length. Generally, I find the Legeres to be more reliant than cane , but I find that for high notes ( above high C I prefer the VD s)
Avins

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2020-01-23 00:43

The cut of the German Legere reeds makes them play harder than French cut counterpart. I think you may try starting at a full strength softer that what you use in a European Signature. You may even have to adjust down from there.


They are VERY good, in fact I started with them and only ran into a few standard French mouthpieces with which they didn't work. I'd say though that they are just slightly less "pingy" than the European Signatures.



[oops......had to correct the post. I went back and given what I use now, reed/mouthpiece, it is at LEAST a full strength (ie 2 1/2 = 3 1/2) different or even more. I would emphasize though that any real test for yourself will take some weeks and a variety of different strengths to try over the course of weeks, not just a noodle or two]



.................Paul Aviles



Post Edited (2020-01-23 03:56)

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Grabnerwg 
Date:   2020-01-26 04:55

Made a new mouthpiece today. Prototype Model S1C-LE. Plays great with Legere Signature European Cut reeds 3 1/2, 3 3/4, 4.

Here's the news. Easily plays up to the Bb, B, and C, using a #4 Legere. Still tweaking it to get the C# and a D.

Will post more when I know more.

Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
847-266-8644

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Jimis4klar 
Date:   2020-03-26 05:03

Anyone knows which legere or any synthetic reed works similarly to V12 3.5 for BD5 Bb clarinet MP?? I'm between a Legere signature 3.75 or a european 3.5.. I normally use V12 3.5 and I have tried the european 3.75 but It's heavy compared to v12 and It doesn't reach the very high notes, any alternatives????

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Bob Bernardo 
Date:   2020-03-26 20:53

Jimis4klar - none

It's a totally different cut. Email me and I'll try to send measurements. I have to still measure them.

I don't agree that finding a mouthpiece to fit a Legere reed is the way to look and solve this. You have to adjust the Legeres just like a cane reed.


Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces


Yamaha Artist 2015




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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Matt Locker 
Date:   2020-03-29 23:03

I'd say try a Fibracell #4 or #4.5. I'm a convert, after having spent a bunch of years trying to get a Legere to sound how I wanted it to. The Fibracell does everything I want and plays easily to the top of my range.
caveat: I'm just a decent amateur, not a pro.
MOO

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2020-03-29 23:15

I have always been a fan of the Fibracell bass clarinet reeds which have a much woodier sound than the standard Legere bass clarinet reeds. However, the Bb clarinet Fibracell reeds where always a bit too buzzy and frail sounding for my taste. Now that Legere has the Signature Tenor saxophone reeds, there is no need to for the Fibracell.


Remember, Fibracell is NOT synthetic! They are just cane with a synthetic coating across the bottom of the cane (flat part that rests on table and is exposed to mouthpiece opening).





.............Paul Aviles

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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: paulyb 
Date:   2020-03-30 11:26

Fibracell reeds are 100% synthetic. From their website:

"Fibracell material is a sophisticated composite of aerospace materials designed to precisely duplicate the way Nature constructs reed cane. Very stiff but sound absorbing Aramid fibers are suspended in a light weight resin formulation."

http://www.fibracelldirect.com/



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Paul Aviles 
Date:   2020-03-30 12:22

Let me apologize for passing along inaccurate information. I had heard that recently from someone and thought, hmmmm......that makes sense, and took it as correct.


I just sacrificed a #4 Fibracell Bb clarinet reed to the clarinet Gods and it is akin to fiberglass through and through (it breaks down into hairy fibers).



My apologies to Fibracell.



They still don't play right.






..................Paul Aviles



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 Re: Mouthpiece and legere reeds
Author: Djudy 
Date:   2020-03-31 14:30

Paul, are you playing the Legère Tenor sax on your Bb clarinet? What strength? I would not even have imagined that possibility. I tried the soprano sax once (because I also have a soprano) but it didn't work well with my clarinet mp, too broad.





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