 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-06 03:36
For a while now, I've started playing with more and more "air" than ever and feel that open mouthpieces are perfect for me. Does that mean large bore clarinets are what I need? I feel that my Leblanc 430S bass, which has a whopping 24mm bore, is so much more fun than any German style bass - just for example. I have too little experience with Viennese style clarinets, but why not try them, too?
Sadly, I've settled on the Boehm system, but now that I know B&H made large bore clarinets you why not try to find used Symphony 1010? Are they very difficult to adjust to, do they play less in tune than current Buffets and Yamaha's?
These all might look like naïve questions, but I just really don't understand the many debates around B&H, in other words. Why is their top clarinet in the eyes of many not on par with a R13 (and others)? And what other large bore clarinets can you guys recommend? Are there still new Boehm system ones being produced? IiRC the Series 9 by Selmer ist another large bore clarinet - one hat I actually got to try - and I was deeply impressed by it.
Best regards
Christian
Post Edited (2018-12-06 03:38)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-06 04:15
I believe Peter Eaton still makes the large bore style instrument. Of course you must play that with the matching cylindrical bore mouthpiece (or have yours bored out to match....but I don't know if that is an ideal solution).
I played 1010s so many years ago it is hard now to recall a meaningful comparison. I might say that they were more like playing a heavily undercut Selmer. You get a LOT of flexibility of pitch and timbre but the down side is......you get a lot of flexibility of pitch and timbre. The point is it is a lot of work to keep things all "centered," but some prefer that.
Funny, you reference the German clarinet. My Wurlitzers where of the mid '80s when their bore was unusually large (for them - greater than 15.00mm?). But there was some critical blow back from their fans which led back to more "normal" bores from Wurlitzer.
Lastly though, there is the age old issue of what is "fun to play" vs. (if there is a vs.) what sounds best. I would argue the Wurlitzer bass cuts through pretty much any orchestral texture with the least effort. But if the feel is not what you want, then you must decide what is more important.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: sax panther
Date: 2018-12-06 12:51
Peter Eaton if you've got the cash...a more affordable option for a new large bore clarinet is Hanson, who as far as I'm aware are still offering a choice of bores.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-12-06 13:13
A plastic Bundy has a .590" (15mm) bore and they can be picked up for next tp nothing (and will often warrant a complete rebuild).
They made narrow bore ones with a .577" bore which were stamped 577 on the top joint.
While they are utilitarian, they can be made to play well with a complete repad.
Then there are Selmer Balanced Tone, Centered Tone and Series 9 if you're hankering after a quality pro level model.
Also Leblanc Dynamic-H and Pete Fountain models have a 15mm bore.
While B&H 1010 and Eaton Elites have a large 15.2mm bore, they have relatively small toneholes compared to large bore Selmers.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Reformed
Date: 2018-12-06 13:18
Peter Eaton's website now says "Production of Peter Eaton clarinets has now ended. All International model instruments have been sold. There are a limited number of Elite clarinets still available."
The Eaton clarinets are poly-cylindrical whereas the 1010s are mono-cylindrical, making tuning on the Eaton Elites vastly improved.
Some of the Rossi clarinets are large bore. I believe.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-12-06 13:23
Yeah - Rossi offer an English bore clarinet with a 15.2mm bore.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-06 14:44
Thank you guys for all the input.
It turns out my Amati 372S in A has a 15mm bore too - and I absolutely enjoy playing it, however there are some design flaws that result in a fairly poor intonation (and experts I talked to told me that cannot be compensated by MPC/barrel choice), so I'd prefer a B&H if it's better in that department.
But if they are mono-cyclindrical like the Amati (AFAIK), that'd be a pretty big caveat.
My teacher has a '80s Wurlitzer which is great. Works surpisingly well with my Boehm MPC.
Problem is, no other pairs are as readily available as B&H, but especially big bore instruments seem to require the player to adjust to them, so I'd rather have similar instruments in A and Bb.
Guess I'll have to keep waiting and saving or switch back to the German system....
Post Edited (2018-12-06 14:49)
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2018-12-06 15:08
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I played 1010s so many years ago it is hard now to recall a meaningful
> comparison. I might say that they were more like playing a heavily undercut
> Selmer
Interesting, given that there's no undercutting on a 1010.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-12-06 15:14
Not very common, but you can try to find a used Eaton too. Even the International (his "French" model) has a larger bore than regular French clarinets. Not the same as the large bore clarinets, but worth trying if you get a chance. If you need a mouthpiece to match a large bore clarinet (Eaton, B&H, etc.) then AFAIK Eaton still makes them even though they stopped making instruments.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-06 17:09
I guess I mean that the end result of play is similar between the Boosey and Hawkes 1010 and some Selmers in that YOU the player must achieve constancy of pitch and timbre.
Of course now that I look at it (I still have them to make lamps some day) the 1010 has even less undercutting than my CSGs, but there IS undercutting. It is the last and probably most important tuning step of the manufacturing process.........even flutes are undercut.
Oh, and I should point out to those who are not familiar with the 1010 style bore, that it is a unique acoustic model. There may be similar dimensions on other clarinets, but the way the 1010 was built to include the unique large, cylindrical bored (not conical like everybody else) mouthpiece, accommodates an entirely different approach to playing clarinet.
...............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2018-12-06 17:37)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2018-12-06 19:25
Peter Eaton has stopped making clarinets so best get in touch to see if he has any Elites left.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-06 19:59
Paul... Before you turn them into lamps, you might want to send them to me
To my understanding, large bore clarinets don't require undercutting, as they rather tend to be sharp in the lower register (and I understand that undercutting mainly raises the pitch of the lower note). But that that wouldn't explain why my Amati is too flat in the lower register - and why was the symphony 1010 significantly more expensive than the Emperor. Tone hole work takes time.
I don't know, wether viennese bore clarinets are undercut; that'd be interesting to find out.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-06 20:49
I think what it boils down to is the extent of the undercutting. I have spent most of my career completely ignoring everything that was not directly related to my improvement as a player, to include how the interior of the clarinet is designed. BUT I do have two bookend bits of info that I hold onto. When I first started in the '70s the dealer was keen on selling me a Buffet because they played more critically. "Listen to how softly you can play on it compared to the Selmer (a 10G that I bought)." He pointed out that the Selmer did better pitch bending because of the undercutting. More recently, upon some questions to a great repair person, I was told that you can lower the pitch of lower register notes by filling in the undercutting with nail polish. That lowering has much less affect on the 12th above.
Beyond that I remain blissfully ignorant.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-12-06 22:28
There's a lot good to be said about 1010s. Used ones are available in Britain for quite a lot less than anything else mentioned, though you do need to use the appropriate mouthpiece, and the sound can vary quite a lot from one mouthpiece to another. I've tried large bore Selmers, and they were quite different to me. I like how I sound on 1010s and don't on Selmers. With Eaton Elites, as noted above, the bore is tapered rather than cylindrical, he worked quite a lot on the tuning, he undercut the tone holes, and they don't have the Acton mechanism, which I think is too bad. I tried an Elite Bb and liked it better in all respects except the high Ebs, which the Acton makes quite fun. But you really don't get another instrument as good as a 1010 for the price they usually appear at.
My low E and F on 1010s are flat unless I do a lot to raise them, and the full B and C are high, especially on the A, so I'm not sure where the information to the contrary comes from. Maybe it's mouthpiece related.
Besides the "English bore" Rossis, he also sells a Vienna bore that's the same bore diameter. I'm not sure where the differences are, except for the relative lengths of the barrel and upper joint.
I agree with Paul about the old Wurlitzer German system bass; best bass I ever played on, and there was no problem cutting through. It's really too bad Eaton didn't attract some apprentices willing to carry on his designs.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-06 23:36
Well then, I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for a nice set of 1010's. There's many being sold with the corresponding MPC and that for less than 1000 pounds.
There's restored 926's on the 'that auction site' as well as a set of 1010's needing service. I'm confident I'll find the right set for me
Thanks again!
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-12-07 00:12
As has been discussed elsewhere on this Board, there are reasons to be skeptical about whether the characteristics of "big bore" clarinets are really due to the bore size itself, or due to other aspects of the design. Evidence for this view comes from the fact that an Eaton International sounds and feels more like an Eaton Elite or 1010 than it does an R13. There is also the Howarth S1 or S2, which use standard mouthpieces, but again have some similarity of character with 1010s.
I was very sad to read here (for the first time) that Eaton is ceasing production of his instruments. Howarths are also no longer made. The same applies to the AE, which was Yamaha's effort to go in this direction. So it seems that there isn't enough demand out there to sustain production of a clarinet of this type. Even Buffet, with a gazillion different models, doesn't offer one.
Regarding 1010s specifically, my personal efforts to play on them foundered for three reasons: (1) the need for a large-bore mouthpiece; (2) tuning issues; (3) lack of consistency in sound from note to note. (1) is a problem because I don't think most B+H mouthpieces were very good. You could have one re-layed, or take a standard mouthpiece you like and have it bored out, but this does seem to change the character. (3) may vary between different instruments, but (2) is probably more intrinsic to the cylindrical design (which is why Eaton changed to a tapered upper joint). Taking it all together, it's just too much grief - even though the sound and feel can every now and then offer a vision of how the clarinet could be.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-12-07 00:37
Honestly, I attribute a huge part of my love for classical clarinet playing to the recordings of Gervaise de Peyer. I am convinced there is some acoustic reason yet to be fully understood that makes recording the clarinet euphonically nearly impossible. For some equally misunderstood reason Maestro de Peyer's sound (as well as a few others) made for a flattering recorded end product.
At any rate, Gervase de Peyer and the Boosey and Hawkes 1010 were a great pairing.
..................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2018-12-07 02:07)
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2018-12-07 13:36
There are later model 1010 pairs (with the Acton vent) for sale at Woodwind and Reed and Reed and Squeak at the moment. They can be lovely instruments if properly serviced, although as others have said intonation can be a bit wayward (you get used to compensating) - much less of an issue with Eaton Elites, but used examples are a rare. Peter Eaton is looking to retire properly, but it would be worth asking whether he has any Elites available. He stays in touch with many players of his instruments and occasionally offers them second hand.
I've used Elites as my main instruments for about 15 years, and parted with my A 1010 soon afterwards, but still can't bring myself to sell the Bb!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-12-07 14:40
I had a late 1010 from around 1983, but only for a matter of months and I never even got a chance to play it after I fully overhauled it. I let someone play it on a matinee show (they played Emperors) just to see how it played. After that they asked if they could use it for the evening performance and they decided by the interval they want to buy it off me. I wasn't intending to sell it, but they insisted.
Before I sent it off, I had another B&H player (Imperial 926 this time) play it during a rehearsal and he liked the fact he could use the standard throat Bb fingering instead of having to use the trill key fingering (as he'd do on his 926) due to the clarity of that note with that fingering on the 1010.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Reformed
Date: 2018-12-07 14:51
As an easy option, why not firstly try a larger bore English mouthpiece on a French Boehm?
This was John McCaw's choice with B&H 926 mouthpiece on Buffets. The recording of him playing the solo from Verdi's Forza del Destino with Domingo, is one of the great English clarinet achievements, although he was a Kiwi.
The problem is getting hold of a good 926 mouthpiece, the B&H mouthpieces from the 70s onwards were generally very poor.
In theary the 926 mouthpiece is the same as a 1010 mouthpiece, but with a large conical bore rather than the 1010's pure cylinder.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-12-07 21:19
Chris, yes, that's another thing about 1010s. You just play Bb with two fingers, instead of the modified street gang sign you need to do with your fingers on a Buffet in order to get it to sound and tune right.
Reformed, I've tried a 1010 mouthpiece on a French Boehm, and the tuning goes pear shaped.
Post Edited (2018-12-07 21:20)
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Author: Reformed
Date: 2018-12-07 22:34
Not a 1010 mouthpiece, but a 926!
It was good enough for the long time principal in the Philharmonia.....
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-12-07 22:42
The 926 design (all other models of B&H made clarinets except the 1010) uses a standard French mouthpiece. Likewise with the Eaton International.
1010s and Eaton Elites require a 1010 specific mouthpiece.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2018-12-07 23:01
>I had a late 1010 from around 1983
When did B&H finish the production?
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Author: Reformed
Date: 2018-12-07 23:53
According to http://research.gold.ac.uk/20822/1/MUS_thesis_BrandJ_2012.pdf, they ceased production of clarinets in 1986.
Not sure of the last 1010 though.
I have the last pre-war style 1010 which was made in 1941. Sadly, it was badly damaged before it came to me but blows beautifully when it wants to.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-12-08 06:35
If you want to do a cheap experiment on the B&H, you can find the 1-10 hard rubber and the 2-20 wood clarinets pretty cheap on a common auction site; this at least guarantees that you don't get one with the "Mazak" keys (which is a real possibility with the Edgware and Regent). These have a 15.3mm bore at the center tenon (15.45 at the top).
These are reasonable 'large bore' clarinets; I use my 1-10 sometimes for outdoor gigs...particularly when I need to play loud. It works fine with an ordinary mouthpiece; I use a VD B45 mostly
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2018-12-08 11:56
While you're waiting for a good 1010 to come along, keep an eye open for the B&H 8-10, which is not common but when they do come up on offer, they can be something of a bargain.
David Spiegelthal here on the BBoard sold me a wonderful 8-10 some years back with custom undercutting and a vent hole added to the bell. At .593", it's definitely large-bore but not quite as large as the .600" bore of the 10-10. It takes a French-style mouthpiece, plays very well in tune, is built from absolutely excellent wood, and has that certain English weight and presence to the sound.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-12-08 12:21
FWIW an Eaton International I just measured was 15mm at the top end of the upper section. This was measured with the clarinet (not played for a few days), winter (pretty cold), very dry city.
Ab it off topic but wondering how much it varies if measured in the summer, in a humid area, after playing, for example. I never compared.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-12-08 12:34
Did you measure the top joint bore at the lower tenon? That's where the bore is at its narrowest.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-12-08 14:31
To be honest I'm with John Peacock on this one- the size/shape of the tone holes in relation to the bore is the predominant factor dictating response and resistance and tone quality (with any given mouthpiece and reed). Anyone who has actually tried to make their own clarinet (or bore some holes in a tube to make music) will have learnt this.
My wife and I own a German system bass that is one of the few made by Oskar Oehler himself. It is tiny, has a very small bore for a bass clarinet- so much that it looks like an alto clarinet. And yet, makes more sound than any Boehm system bass I've played. Why? A set of characteristics and design specs that are more complicated than just "it has a large/small bore".
dn
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Author: Windy Dreamer
Date: 2018-12-08 19:58
Someone recently mentioned that they were able to play a1010 with a Vandoren VR5. I recently acquired a YCL 24 that came with a Vandoren V 360. It is allegedly a predecessor to the VR5 . I just finished trying the V 360 on my 1010 and it sounded great. Why this mouthpiece worked while other narrow bore mouthpieces did not is a mystery.
Ten minutes after writing this post I measured the V 360. It has a conical bore that measures 15 mm about 1/4 inch in. I assume it would be even wider at the very end.Due to the calipers sharp edges I am reluctant to take more elaborate measurements.
Post Edited (2018-12-08 20:12)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-12-09 03:54
At one stage Vandoren did make some mouthpieces to suit a 1010, presumably standard mouthpieces but bored out.
However in every example I have seen there was always a marking on the body to indicate it was for a 1010.
And the 926 mouthpiece is not a standard French design. The bore is wider and has a much shallower cone than most French models, and the overall length is approx 2 mm shorter to compensate for the larger bore volume.
However B&H did state that the 926 instruments could be played satisfactorily with a French style mouithpiece.
I personally found that a VD A1 Crystal worked well on the 926 as it tended to have a wider but shorter bore.
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Author: Reformed
Date: 2018-12-09 12:15
I have a Vandoren 1010 mouthpiece bought from Rue Lepic sometime in the second half of the 1980s.
It's bore is distinctly conical, definitely not a 1010 bore!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-12-09 13:45
I'm pretty sure a Vandoren B40 1010 mouthpiece I've seen wasn't anything special either.
I've used my A1 crystals on 1010s and Elites and never found any problems.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-12-09 18:45
>> Did you measure the top joint bore at the lower tenon? That's where the bore is at its narrowest. <<
Yes it was approx 14.75mm. Top part was actually 14.99mm. I don't think measuring something like this necessarily means anything to the bore size they are made to. So it's just a rough diameter (even though measured relatively accurately).
Have you ever checked how much it can change from different temperatures and moisture?
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-12-09 20:44
I'm not entirely surprised the Vandoren crystal mouthpieces work on 1010s, as they were misdesigned with too large an internal volume. I used one for some years on an R13 and it had some nice qualities - but you had to use a 64mm barrel on the Bb or it was as flat as a pancake.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-09 20:47
Wow, this thread is exploding! Great input from everyone!
Re: Does the bore even affect the tone, or is it the tone holes? Well, I'm not knowledgeable enough to form a definite opinion on this, but haven't met any expert yet who would say the bore doesn't matter, nor can I imagine that even if this were true, the tone hole design correlates with the bore and as such it'd at least indirectly play a role. But I guess what donald said about the German system bass makes, sense, so really, I don't know.
Chris, I'll take a look at the bundy - I was given a bundy alto for a concert and it had an imho fantastic, extra rich tone, albeit this is certainly no pro model.
Thanks for the link, Reformed, that was an interesting read!
The 1010 in particular seems, as hinted by some, rather fraught with problems...
On p.261 the author pretty unmistakably states that the later 1010's detoriated in quality - it seems professionales more and more switched to the easier to play (and/or more in tune) Buffet R13 for a reason.
So perhaps I should look for 15mm clarinets that accept normal french mpc, as I do not have the time and energy to invest into a set of clarinets that I need to (heavily) get adjusted to. There's a set of 926 on that auction site which is apperently well-selected - other than that, I might need to save for a few more years and get custom Rossis or a Reform Boehm (but this is something I'll do eventually anyways!). By now, I much prefer the sound of my Amati A, even if it tunes poorly, but for some reason, all of its notes, even the throat Bb sound fuller and more pleasant than on my RC. Closer to my teacher's Wurlitzer than he expected!
It's somewhat annoying there's so little Information on current production bore/tonal design. What I'm mostly looking for is probably a tapered 15mm or whatever gets me a "Big tone, very flexible and rich-sounding" as stated on the Rossi website...
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Author: gatto
Date: 2018-12-09 22:35
By the way. One of the main feature of the 1010 is not only its very wide bore, but also its very cylindrical bore.
What about Buffet's Tradition and Legende, how cylindrical are they actually? And which bore diameter do they have?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-12-09 23:06
Bore measurements are taken from the middle tenon and not the top of the top joint as the middle tenon is where the bore is at its narrowest. That's the official bore measurement of any clarinet that's stated in the specifications in most clarinet catalogues.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-12-10 02:39
Chris,
If you were asking me (as above)...yes, I measured the 15.3mm bore on the 1-10 at both the bottom of the upper joint and the top of the lower joint. It's the same on both of the 1-10s that I have here in my shop at the moment
Jeff
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-12-10 07:13
"Does the bore even affect the tone, or is it the tone holes?" My experience agrees with the folks who say it isn't entirely the bore. Whether it's entirely the tone holes, I wouldn't want to say. If it were something simple, more makers would be making fantastic instruments.
"On p.261 the author pretty unmistakably states that the later 1010's detoriated in quality - it seems professionales more and more switched to the easier to play (and/or more in tune) Buffet R13 for a reason." I bought my 1010s new in 1984, and within six months, the importer I got them from said they'd been discontinued. I wouldn't say there's a problem with the quality--they've always worked as designed. They are, though, harder to play for me than Buffets in terms of the ergonomics. Can't express an opinion on why British players started moving away from them, but stopping production tends to undermine confidence in something.
"One of the main feature of the 1010 is not only its very wide bore, but also its very cylindrical bore." True, but when I tried an Elite against my 1010, going back and forth, the sound and playing characteristics seemed very much the same, but the tuning was noticeably better on the Elite.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-10 11:52
Dorjepismo:
"Can't express an opinion on why British players started moving away from them, but stopping production tends to undermine confidence in something."
"True, but when I tried an Elite against my 1010, going back and forth, the sound and playing characteristics seemed very much the same, but the tuning was noticeably better on the Elite."
My supposition is that the demand for flawless intonation increased. Look at how many additional mechanisms Schwenk und Seggelke developed, all more or less only for the purpose of even better tuning!
That being said, I won't give up on B&H. If someone has an opinion on the 926 vs. 1010, please let me know. In the meantime, I got a Bundy for about 50€ - neat, it doesn't even need service! Could use an instrument for playing outside anyways.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-12-10 13:27
B&H stopped production of clarinets and oboes in 1984 - they also became the UK agent for Buffet around that time when Buffet were a separate entity until then with their own UK outlet.
They supplied instruments to the military bands which were usually B&H Imperial 926 clarinets, but then supplied Buffet R13s after B&H clarinet production ceased. They carried on making flutes (under the name Buffet) until production went over to Schreiber in the late '90s.
Another thing B&H did was to destroy old instruments to keep up the supply and demand of new ones.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-10 14:38
"Another thing B&H did was to destroy old instruments to keep up the supply and demand of new ones."
Well, that's just sad.
Anyways, I just talked to Mr Hammerschmidt (of Karl Hammerschmidt clarinets) on the phone regarding an older German System clarinet I had - he says at some point, they went up with the bore size from 14.8mm to 15mm and use that size on their Boehms too. While it's not gigantic difference, players have come to prefer the richer and fuller tone.
I'm fairly sure a few other Germany based makers prefer larger bore sizes, too, but this is good news!
He also suggested that I try a Viennese or German style on a large bore Boehm, regardless of whether that's "allowed" or not
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-12-11 03:47
The B&H Imperial 926 and 1010 are entirely different animals.
When I regularly played B&H instruments in my earlier days I greatly preferred the 926, with it's slightly smaller bore and more focussed tone (but still not as focussed as the French instruments)
But that of course is very much a subjective matter.
I then moved to a new pair of Leblanc LLs because I was looking for that greater focus, and have played then ever since, although I still have some 926s in my armory. Plus a pair of 1010s that I will never play now, but will one day service and pass on to some 1010 enthusiast.
A couple of professional players I have spoken to over the years, moved from 926s to 1010s not really for tonal reasons, in fact one definitely preferred his sound on the 926, but because the 1010 was a more powerful instrument. And some conductors were always asking for more and more sound.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2018-12-14 13:02
Just for the record, here are some current large bore clarinets (15,0 mm or larger at the upper end of the top joint) that I've measured recently. The exact measurement will of course vary somewhat with differences in humidity, between different specimens of each model, and there may also be some ovality with a difference in the vertical and horizontal diameter. All measurements presented are vertical (with the instrument in playing position) with the first number for the upper end of the upper joint and the second one for the lower end of that same joint. All clarinets are in Bb.
Martin Foag Reform Boehm, model 83: 15,99/15,25 mm
Selmer Privilege: 15,6/14,6 mm
Frank Hammerschmidt, model FH01 F (French clarinet with Viennese bore): 15,43/14,95 mm
Leitner & Kraus Reform Boehm, model 420 W (they offer two bore sizes, a regular and this larger one): 15,38/14,95 mm
Dietz Reform Boehm model 587 with Viennese bore (they offer three different bore sizes for their Reform Boehm's with this one being the largest): 15,34/14,91 mm
Wurlitzer Reform Boehm, model 185 (they offer only one Reform Boehm bore size): 15,07/14,64 mm
Selmer Presence: 15,0/14,64 mm
I may add that the most full and smooth sound (which is the kind of sound I'm after) on these clarinets I got with the Foag, closely followed by the Dietz. Best overall tuning on an a=442 level I got with the Dietz. Best sound for me with the Foag was with a PlayEasy A' Viennese bore mouthpiece (15,34 mm at the end of the bore), and best sound and overall tuning with the Dietz I also got with a PlayEasy A' but with German bore (14,94 mm at the end of the bore).
Post Edited (2018-12-14 13:27)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-12-14 14:37
The Selmer Privilege and Presence aren't large bore clarinets as the bore diameter on them is 14.6mm and 14.64mm.
While they may measure 15mm or more at the top end, that's only at the flare/expansion of the bore at the top end and not the majority of the length of the parallel section of the bore which is taken at the middle tenon which is where the bore is at its narrowest.
Selmer haven't made large bore clarinets since they stopped making the Series 9.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2018-12-14 14:39)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-14 14:56
Micke, thanks a lot for these measurements. Foag offers a pretty interesting range of instruments and individual solutions, could you tell me more about the reform Boehm? Did you get to measure a Uebel Superior, too, by chance?
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-12-14 18:04
Chris: seconded. Even R13s can sometimes reach over 15.0 mm at the top of the upper joint.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-15 17:22
I received the Bundy yesterday and boy, that is a lovely horn. Definitely prefer the larger bore and feel much more freed up when playing it vs. my RC. Just like with my Amati, the throat tones are too sharp, yet more pleasant, whereas my RC has the opposite tendency (but plays much more in tune). However, they don't sound nearly as full and expressive, so if I can manage that, I'd prefer these clarinets any day.
Again thanks Chris P for the suggestion, that is going to be a fine backup/marching horn.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2018-12-15 17:39
Kalashnikirby, I've not measured an Uebel Superior but I suppose it's at least close to a Schwenk & Seggelke French bore clarinet - since Jochen Seggelke is the acoustic advisor to the Uebel company (now officially stated also at the S&S Website). "Dorjepismo" once wrote the following about the bore of S&S clarinets: "Their 'French bore' starts at 15 mm on the upper joint and goes to 14.55 mm."
Concerning the Foag RB I needed to pull out the longest provided barrel about 1 mm and also the joints mostly about the same to get an a=442 general level (he also makes an 440 version with a longer lower joint, which probably would suite me better). For me internal tuning was problematic, but I'm still thinking that some "fine tuning" of the clarinet itself could improve it. I also had some grunting (undertoning) issues in the lower clarion, but don't know the reason for it. I should have tested it for possible leaks, but didn't.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-12-15 20:01
14.55mm is a narrow bore and much narrower than a Buffet R13 - forget about the expansion at the top end even if it opens up to around 15mm above the speaker tube as it's still a narrow bore clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-12-16 10:14
Chris & Micke: the 14.55 measurement is what I was told at S&S when I ordered French bore instruments. I finally got home with the set on Wednesday, and tried them against my 1010s this morning. As far as "power" goes, they beat the 1010s by a noticeable margin. So I have to agree with the view that the size of the bore at the bottom of the lower joint doesn't determine the projection, or "power," of the instrument. The tone holes are of a similar size to the 1010s, but placed closer together, which is handy for fingering. I guess if the question is "which large bore to buy," the answer should probably be, why fixate on a large bore? At least as far as length of phrasing is concerned, the "narrow bore" lets you go quite a lot longer. I don't have the tools to measure whether the end of the upper joint is exactly 14.55, but when you look in the upper joint, you see three distinct areas of tapering. I believe Buffets also do three sections, but as a polycylindrical form. Whether the S&Ss are polycylindrical or three areas of different degrees of taper, I don't know, but visually, they look like the latter. Jochen says he does the tapering for tuning and to get the tone holes closer together, and the tuning is pretty incredible. Jochen told me he tuned them to 440, and with a 66 mm barrel, they're right there. Just like Buffets, the barrels range from 64 to 67 mm.
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2018-12-17 23:58
FWIW, on Clarineat Podcast 56 (https://www.clarineat.com/56-uebel-esm/), there is a discussion with Andreas Moe concerning the line of Uebel clarinets in which (I understood) he says that they are a "Large Bore" design (i.e., not quite a [15mm] German bore, but more of a hybrid design that closely approximates the German bore).
It would be interesting to try them and see how they compare to my CSGs, which are a smaller bore design.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-12-18 12:19
Though I've recently learned from this thread that bore size doesn't necessarily correlate with the tone, I definetely found the Uebel a tad "calmer" than the CSG (I directly compared it to) and would've guessed the bore was a bit larger.
In hindsight, it's hard to say which horn was better, but I did like the Uebel's keywork/ergonomics a bit more (despite a poorly placed Eb lever).
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