 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-10-19 23:09
Hi guys,
ever since I had the chance to play and eventually buy a Leblanc 430S Low C Bass, my musical development got such a huge positive boost (maybe for other reasons too) that I wanted to share two or three insights on that. I know, it's obvious for any pro, but being an amateur and having received little advice from techs and teachers, because they either didn't exactly specialize in that instrument or didn't find the time to give me lessons/ useful advice, I find that I must share what I learned. Maybe this can help teachers too, because a specific tech and teacher that is very active on the bass clarinet deemed my 430S as not "concert-able". lol. So here goes:
1) Rethink embouchure.
Some told me it's completely different from the b flat, others say the 2nd register has to be blown like the 1st on the b.... I dunno, but I did find that my support has to be more open, with a little less tension, than on the soprano clarinet. There's so many other things to say about the different characteristics, but what I know for sure is that somebody has to go and tell you one or two things about the differences. Now I seldomly could get definitive advice from professionals that I know, and taking lessons would've been pointless, but an excellent amateur who sounds crazy good on any type of clarinet (he must be some sort of musical genius, having started playing the clarinet at 20y!!!) taught me one or two valuable things: That one has to play like they used the air even from the bottom of their arse :D
Anyways I'd recommend seeking a GOOD teacher with actually bass clarinet experience, as in my experience the people I asked (and actually offered money) were super evasive and unspecific with their advice. God knows why....
2) Plastic reeds are like the gold standard, but others say they are lifeless.
What I simply found, playing the cheap and the expensive legeres, is that they perform more safely in all situations, thus I prefer them for concerts. I wouldn't know if the audience finds any difference between the two types, but I can rely on producing a solid altissimo with those, so why not???
3) Pay the extra $$ for a good tech and make sure the instrument is leak-free.
Yeah, with the bass-experts here on bboard in mind, I know my statement is pretty redundant. Still, I think that getting my instrument-leak free made an incredible difference and I'd almost certainly avoid used unadjusted or chinese bass clarinets now. I can only talk about the gear4music one, but the keys were to bendy and that's not worth it in the long run! On the other hand, the keywork on my Leblanc is like a tank and doesn't go out off adjusment no matter how I treat it, which is great.
That being said, I had to do a lot of adjustments to get it what it is now - I suppose a tech would have done even better, but then again, when I received it, it was apperently overhauled "not too long ago" but had terribly adjusted keys and many leaks I didn't notice at first. Maybe the reason said tech would've rather ditched it, because the pads looked fine. Guess what, that means NOTHING on a bass clarinet, even if there is a visible impression on a 20mm+ pad, it can leak. On the upper joint, leaks can reduce the perfomance of the lower register like crazy and you may still not actually notice it. Please, take it to a decent tech (or invest a lot of your spare time to get it right like me, haha)
4) Michael Lowenstern's YT channel is neat, but somehow I could hardly learn anything from it. It's fun to watch him play and talk about the bass clarinet, but eventually, being in dialogue with other players and teachers was what helped me. Maybe I need to watch his videos with more attention, but the advice on reeds and MPC's for example is pretty redundant; you simply have to go and try for yourself. I'm not that happy that he recommends the cheap bass clarinets, not because of the rubber/ABS, but because I do not think they'd last for years like a good instrument with forged keywork - of course, some manufacturer could start mounting good keywork on a synthetic body.
So that's it. Just had to get it off my chest. I hope other people on this board have already realized these points (and many more I'm not aware of, naturally) before investing too much time and money and I'm sure most pros are more competent at conveying this knowledge....There's still so much to learn!!
Best regards,
Christian
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2018-10-20 00:27
Christian,
Glad you were able to share those thoughts. For the record, I've also liked all of your items above but I do always get something from #4.
Perhaps more important and critical to growing musically on the bass is to realize it is a very unique instrument. Along this line, you'll find some musings that I offered earlier on a thread. You might find them interesting.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=361784&t=361605
In other areas, I have humbly offered my opinions on a wide range of bass related topics. Do a search with the word "hank" and "bass: with the quotes and you'll find them
HRL
Post Edited (2018-10-20 03:50)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-10-20 00:36
Kalashnikirby wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> ever since I had the chance to play and eventually buy a
> Leblanc 430S Low C Bass, my musical development got such a huge
> positive boost (maybe for other reasons too) that I wanted to
> share two or three insights on that. I know, it's obvious for
> any pro, but being an amateur and having received little advice
> from techs and teachers, because they either didn't exactly
> specialize in that instrument or didn't find the time to give
> me lessons/ useful advice, I find that I must share what I
> learned. Maybe this can help teachers too, because a specific
> tech and teacher that is very active on the bass clarinet
> deemed my 430S as not "concert-able". lol. So here goes:
>
> 1) Rethink embouchure.
>
> Anyways I'd recommend seeking a GOOD teacher with actually bass
> clarinet experience, as in my experience the people I asked
> (and actually offered money) were super evasive and unspecific
> with their advice. God knows why....
Because those of us who have learned whatever we know about playing bass on our own have made our discoveries, such as they are, by trial and error and often over an unsystematic and non-linear path. I for one have had really varied success with bass clarinet over the decades as things I thought I figured out in one incarnation as "bass clarinet player" turned out not to be useful the next time. I've always gotten through bass jobs performance by performance and sometimes have had nearly to relearn how to play the thing each time I needed it (I play bass very sporadically). As a result I have never been willing to teach bass to anyone - I have very little confidence in anything I might say to a newcomer to the instrument. Except that you need a good mouthpiece and a responsive reed.
> 3) Pay the extra $$ for a good tech and make sure the
> instrument is leak-free.
There are so many places for small leaks to develop. The adjustments seem to be really fine, the leaky pads themselves themselves sometimes difficult to find, especially since they sometimes seal until they are combined with another key to produce an interval. The mechanisms to regulate how each pad closes both singly and in combination are sometimes obscure and hard to find, especially in a double register key system. And even small leaks can make the upper register hard to impossible to control. Worse, unlike most French Boehm system A, Bb, C and Eb clarinets, the mechanisms vary sometimes rather dramatically from one bass to another, so it becomes detective work to figure out how all the little moving parts work to control the bigger pads' coverage. Again, register mechanisms can be particularly obscure.
As a result, although I go to an excellent repairman and would swear by his work on any other instrument, I have had to find and make many little mechanical adjustments on my bass even after he has worked on it. I've come to think I am better at finding the small things myself because I have more time to look and know what the problem is that I'm trying to solve. Leak lights just don't find every place of weak contact.
Bottom line is that I second your point that a bass clarinet must be in excellent repair, at least insofar as leaks are concerned, to allow you to play your best.
Karl
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-10-20 14:12
>> because I do not think they'd last for years like a good instrument with forged keywork <<
How do you know the good instruments have forged keys, and how do you know cheaper ones don't? Do you know how each company makes its keys? Curious about specifics. One student model is known to have forged keys. Some of the best instruments don't have forged keys.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-10-20 19:15
Cool. Only play a little bass, and love Legeres for that. Sound fine, aren't "dead" at all, and they can sit there for an hour and you just pick it up and play. With some mouthpieces, the difference between Bb and bass is less. Grabner says he designs for that, and it works. Decades ago, I got a low C Leblanc from Brannon. Didn't leak, but there was a lot of squish in the mechanism for the low notes, which was almost as annoying. Test a new bass for rigid, non-bending keys on the extended notes! I don't know if that's a property of being "forged," but wherever it comes from, it's important.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-10-22 01:25
Hank,
thank you for your suggestions. I suppose it's time to take a closer look at that YT channel - apperently he also discusses the shostakovich violin concerto 2 solo, I'm only going to have to finally learn the bass claf now, ugh. The thread you linked was also quite enjoyable.
kdk wrote:
>>Because those of us who have learned whatever we know about playing bass on our own have made our discoveries, such as they are, by trial and error and often over an unsystematic and non-linear path. I for one have had really varied success with bass clarinet over the decades as things I thought I figured out in one incarnation as "bass clarinet player" turned out not to be useful the next time. I've always gotten through bass jobs performance by performance and sometimes have had nearly to relearn how to play the thing each time I needed it (I play bass very sporadically). As a result I have never been willing to teach bass to anyone - I have very little confidence in anything I might say to a newcomer to the instrument. Except that you need a good mouthpiece and a responsive reed.<<
OK, that'd explain a certain unwillingness I encountered with other teachers. In fact, a lecturer that we have kind-of workshops with 2-3 a year sounds wonderful on the bass clarinet, but refuses to give lessons because she doesn't get to play it often enough as she say.
>>There are so many places for small leaks to develop. The adjustments seem to be really fine, the leaky pads themselves themselves sometimes difficult to find, especially since they sometimes seal until they are combined with another key to produce an interval. The mechanisms to regulate how each pad closes both singly and in combination are sometimes obscure and hard to find, especially in a double register key system. And even small leaks can make the upper register hard to impossible to control. Worse, unlike most French Boehm system A, Bb, C and Eb clarinets, the mechanisms vary sometimes rather dramatically from one bass to another, so it becomes detective work to figure out how all the little moving parts work to control the bigger pads' coverage. Again, register mechanisms can be particularly obscure.
As a result, although I go to an excellent repairman and would swear by his work on any other instrument, I have had to find and make many little mechanical adjustments on my bass even after he has worked on it. I've come to think I am better at finding the small things myself because I have more time to look and know what the problem is that I'm trying to solve. Leak lights just don't find every place of weak contact.
Bottom line is that I second your point that a bass clarinet must be in excellent repair, at least insofar as leaks are concerned, to allow you to play your best. <<
I'm fully aware of how delicate the BC mechanism is and since I overhauled the instrument on my own. It must be frustrating for manufacturers the large pads on the BC just cannot be compressed to eventually cover the tonehole, they simply need to be set right and controlled with a feeler gauge - really takes a long, long time to get it all right...
That being said, the repair people I talked to prefered repairing smaller clarinets. Maybe you can't work on basses in a profitable way, at least at a price agreeable to the customer.
clarnibass wrote:
>>How do you know the good instruments have forged keys, and how do you know cheaper ones don't? Do you know how each company makes its keys? Curious about specifics. One student model is known to have forged keys. Some of the best instruments don't have forged keys.<<
We might've had this discussion earlier - all I know is that the Buffet definetly uses forged keywork, the keywork on my Leblanc looks soldered and therefore is most likely not casted and that *most* synthetic instruments don't, but there are some higher quality options like the Backun Alpha which is pretty much fantastic. If the Ridenour BC is as sturdy, that'd be great. As far as the G4M BC is concerned, I'll disagree with anyone claiming it won't go out of adjustment in the long run. I'd therefore expect no wonders from the Kessler BC either. With the little problems on the G4M, I suspect *all* that the Kessler improves upon is the setup, but that alone would justify the slightly higher price.
My point is that bendy keys found on chinese instruments is would be a deal breaker for me. Otherwise, they could be fantastic. Wish I could test the Ridenour though, but that isn't going to happen too soon, as it can only be bought in the UK and I live in Germany.
dorjepismo wrote:
>>Cool. Only play a little bass, and love Legeres for that. Sound fine, aren't "dead" at all, and they can sit there for an hour and you just pick it up and play. With some mouthpieces, the difference between Bb and bass is less. Grabner says he designs for that, and it works. Decades ago, I got a low C Leblanc from Brannon. Didn't leak, but there was a lot of squish in the mechanism for the low notes, which was almost as annoying. Test a new bass for rigid, non-bending keys on the extended notes! I don't know if that's a property of being "forged," but wherever it comes from, it's important.<<
Do you recall when that was? It say the thumb levers for the C/C# are a little problematic on my Leblanc, but the rest is fairly solid.
Post Edited (2018-10-22 01:26)
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-10-22 03:00
Played it in Miami in 1973 - 1975. Owned it several years after, but didn't play it much. The thumb levers were the worst, but the low pinkie keys weren't great. Tried out a basset clarinet and a bass at S&S in May of last year, and the thumb keys were fine.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-10-22 03:04
Karl said:
I've come to think I am better at finding the small things myself because I have more time to look and know what the problem is that I'm trying to solve. Leak lights just don't find every place of weak contact.
Particularly for subtle stuff on bass clarinets and flutes, I have found feeler gauges much more useful than leak lights. I have a variety of materials that I use, from very thin mylar to cigarette papers. I like the friction of cigarette paper, but want the ruggedness of mylar.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-10-22 09:40
What worked great for me was either the backing of a certain 3M double sided tape or cigarette paper. When the pad is set the first time, one may rely on checking it visually, but that alone won't suffice...
If the pad cup is large enough I put a piece of aluminium foil under the pad, so that it can be heated while being mounted (I use a 6mm tip with my hot air station). A pad cup heater would be extremely handy, too. Not sure if this would work with shellac, too.
It's also worth mentioning that the large white leather pads often bulge into the tonehole and in my case lost more of their actual height than usually (because the impression became incredibely deep after just 3-4 years, so riveted pads were a huge improvement.
dorjepismo said
>>Played it in Miami in 1973 - 1975. Owned it several years after, but didn't play it much. The thumb levers were the worst, but the low pinkie keys weren't great. Tried out a basset clarinet and a bass at S&S in May of last year, and the thumb keys were fine.<<
That'd explain it, because the Leblancs I tried recently were all fabulous instruments. I got my hands on an Alto, which seemed to have been produced in the late 90s like my bass, and the Opus b-flat which were both stellar and again pretty nice keywork.
Now that I recall, clarnibass you're kinda right! I recently overhauled a GDR Oscar Adler and it was almost as bad as an Uebel from that time, but the keywork must've been soldered too. My guess was that there weren't any better alloys or manufacturing processes available at that time.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-10-22 10:25
>> all I know is that the Buffet definetly uses forged keywork, the keywork on my Leblanc looks soldered and therefore is most likely not casted and that *most* synthetic instruments don't <<
Can you clarify what you mean by "forged"?
It sounds like you are saying "soldered" (assuming you mean hard soldered, i.e. brazed) is an alternative? Pretty much all keys are brazed, including on the current Buffet. Do you mean things like the top of levers (e.g. trill keys, left pinky)? Having those brazed doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the key was made a certain way.
Also unclear what you mean by "cast". That's a different method than forging, though keys can be cast and then pressed to finish their shape.
Top models use all of these methods for making keys. Some cheaper student models use the "better" methods too (I think it was Vito that was known to have forged keys for a while... not sure).
Most of the time the shape and design of the keys have at least as much or often more to do with it. For example the current Selmer and Buffet have the best design for reliability of adjustment for the low notes, but the Selmer has what I consider average or even slightly soft keys. Yamaha pro model doesn't have the hardest keys, but the design makes adjustment more of a problem.
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The Clarinet Pages
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