 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-12-07 11:21
Hi,
I have a pal that I've done many, many shows with in the past years. He is a great clarinet player and an OK sax and flute doubler. Anyhow, he called and asked to borrow one of my bass clarinets for a quick call he had for a 3 show gig. Although I usually never loan my instruments, he is one player that I have no real problem with making an exception.
Anyhow, he called to return the instrument and told me he could not quite get a reed that was right, the sound was not what he really wanted, blah, blah, blah. So, he never did use the instrument in the show.
This made me think about my years making friends with my bass clarinets. It was not easy at first and as any journeyman bass clarinet player knows, there are some unusual things about playing bass that you have to experience and work through.
But I'm past all that and love to play bass clarinet. I have two now and enjoy these instruments so much. But it was a challenge.
So, is there really a zen-like experience one must go through to find inner peace and self when learning to really play a bass clarinet?
HRL
PS I'm a very strong sax player and well-schooled and can hold my own in most wind advanced bands and ensembles on first clarinet.
Post Edited (2011-12-07 11:23)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-12-07 12:30
Well, Hank, you're a much better musician than I am but I do enjoy trying to play Bass Cl....and saxes too. I especially enjoy a CD I have of the Czech Clarinet Quartet playng in an old quarry. And I enjoy the comments from that crazy Bass clarinet player from Switzerland who will probably comment.
Bob Draznik
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Author: davyd
Date: 2011-12-07 12:36
Had your pal ever played bass clarinet before; if so, how recently and extensively?
One can lose one's touch on an instrument. My bass clarinet can easily go a couple of years between gigs for which it's needed. I have to spend some time relearning how it's different from the instruments I play more regularly.
I don't know enough about Zen to speak to that aspect of the problem. Perhaps it could be that the mouthpiece wasn't to his liking, or a mechanical problem cropped up. Or he could have a bad batch of reeds, or a neckstrap that wasn't comfortable. It could be anything.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-12-07 14:09
Hi davyd,
No, he is an experienced player on bass clarinet who has probably not played one in a while. The instrument is in perfect adjustment and he had no problems with the mechanical side. The MPs I sent with the instrument play great for me and I'm a pretty average guy. A #3 reed is about right and he had plenty to try.
Floor pegs on both of my bass clarinets. I play tested the instrument before and after and it was excellent.
But with all those issues aside, I ask again "is there a zen..." In other words, do you have to really get your head into the instrument to be a good player?
HRL
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-12-07 14:23
Does the "make friends" thing not apply to all kinds of instruments? Or did your friend expect "love at first note"?
I don't know much about Zen either. (I have read the Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance, though, but somehow found it crap. Maybe I should read "Rushing The Inner Reed" or "Mind Blowing".)
If bass requires an inner equilibrium, I wonder what's necessary for coming to terms with an Alto. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-12-07 18:43
Doctor Hank has a hankerin' for Zen,
which does not make much sense to Sir Ben!
I ask, who needs that cra_
when you've got a neckstrap
a good mouthpiece, and reeds Vandoren?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-12-07 20:18
DS,
I even sent him some DS Special hand-faced MPs. And that did not seem to help?
HRL
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-12-07 21:14
Well, Dr. HRL, I guess those mouthpieces weren't so special after all.....
To answer Ben's question about alto clarinet: The desire and/or willingness to play alto clarinet indicates psychological or mental aberrations which are beyond the scope of this BB's members to understand. One cannot 'come to terms' with alto clarinet any more than one can come to terms with, say, acute psychosis.
Bass clarinet, on the other hand, is the Holy Grail of clarinets, a worthy dream to pursue and a very sane alternative to the squeaky little soprano clarinets. Highly recommended!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-12-07 22:19
> One cannot 'come to terms' with alto clarinet any more than one can come
> to terms with, say, acute psychosis.
Says the very same person who refaced my AC mouthpiece. Now I ask you, is it my fault that the lady now sings? (And it looks like she'll sing again on 17 December)
--
Ben
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-12-08 00:12
DS,
Now you are getting it with:
"Bass clarinet, on the other hand, is the Holy Grail of clarinets, a worthy dream to pursue and a very sane alternative to the squeaky little soprano clarinets. Highly recommended!"
There you go!
HRL
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-12-08 00:55
Bass clarinet has quirks that don't exist on the soprano.
Beginners on soprano are taught to line up the tip of the reed with the tip of the mouthpiece. This doesn't work well on the bass (let alone the contra). The underside of the vamp has to wrap along the lay, which is longer than the distance when the reed is not bent. This almost invariably results in leaks, particularly at the corners. The reed tip must be above the mouthpiece tip, perhaps 1/32".
Many bass are more curved at the corners than the mouthpiece tip, creating a leak at one or both corners. I shape reed tips with an emery board to fit the mouthpiece exactly.
Finally, bass reeds swell with a hump along the bottom, because the bark keeps them from swelling upward. This causes leaks. I begin with #5 reeds and soak and sand them several times, until the swelling has stopped. By that point, the strength is down to 2.5 or 3, which is what I like.
Just some thoughts.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-12-08 03:15
Ken, I haven't had the problems of which you speak for a couple of decades. Methinks you need a better mouthpiece.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-12-08 13:45
David -
I use an Opperman bass mouthpiece and also have a Selmer C* set up by Everett Matson to Ronnie Reuben's (Philadelphia Orchestra) specs. Both play very well.
When the reed wraps along the lay, it covers a longer distance than when it's standing away from the lay. Remember your Pythagorean Theorem. The hypotenuse is by definition longer than either of the other two sides. Since the tip opening is larger and the lay is longer on the bass than on the soprano, the difference in length is larger and requires conscious adjustment of the reed position.
Every contra reed I've ever used, and almost all bass reeds, have swelled along the bottom. It's not a mouthpiece thing but a reed thing.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-12-08 14:03
Methinks you are still overstating the problem, Ken. Yes, my big reeds warp, and I too start with #5s mostly, but certainly don't have to sand and scrape them down to an endpoint of strength 2-1/2 to 3. I usually end up in the #4 range. My soprano reeds, same deal, but to a somewhat lesser degree. It's not specifically a big-clarinet problem as you make it seem. As for reed tip shape mismatches causing leaks, I disagree. I regularly use a variety of brands of reed with different tip shapes on a bunch of different mouthpieces, with no issues at all (and no tip rework needed).
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-12-08 20:34
I've had many "doublers" take a few lessons with me over the years to learn how to "voice" the bass clarinet. It's not a saxophone and it's not a clarinet, it's a different animal. Any good bass clarinet player can play the clarinet but it doesn't work the other way around. I have some good hints on my website on how to approach the bass clarinet, ask you friend to visit it. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Wes
Date: 2011-12-08 20:41
Greetings Hank! Here's hoping you get some time off during the holidays!
It would be a lot of fun to play bass clarinet with some groups but the zen-less trumpets often sit behind the bass clarinet player, blasting his brain into oblivion.
Last summer, I played bass at the ICA convention in Northridge and had a great time.
I have two bass clarinets, a Buffet and a Lefevre, both wonderful to play. The Lefevre is unique in that it has extreme undercutting of some bottom toneholes, making a quite in-tune instrument with a single register key. This is rarely done on production basses because of the labor cost to do the acoustic work, but the mechanism is simpler. The Lefevre bass was probably a stencil instrument from the 40s or 50s from Baxter Northrup in Los Angeles.
Good Wishes!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-12-08 23:10
Hi ESP and Wes,
I had hoped to hear from you Eddie; as a teacher of doublers, your observation about "any good bass clarinetist can ..."
I remember hearing Al Zetzer, the great BC payer at Cleveland, playing soprano clarinet with a quintet. He was outstanding (that must have been a clarinet section with Marcellus et.al.).
We chatted after the performance and he laughed about it a little. But he said about the same thing as you suggest about what BC clarinets can do.
Wes, it has been too long since I have been in your side of the country. I still have not gotten time to really woodshed the oboe. But the reeds are still playing fine.
HRL
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-12-09 03:57
>> Any good bass clarinet player can play the clarinet but it doesn't work the other way around. <<
I know at least three bass clatinet players who are pretty bad clarinet players. There are others. They vary from excellent to intermediate but just never played soprano clarinet.
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Author: graham
Date: 2011-12-09 08:15
I gather that clarinettists tend to fear the bass much more than say the E flat. I have known bass players pick up an e flat and despite rarely playing one do very well on it. I have yet to hear a good bass player who struggled to do a good job on the ordinary clarinet. The bass presents significant special challenges and I think there is something like a Zen factor to getting it to play well for you.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-12-09 12:02
Thanks, Graham. Whether it is Zen or what, there is something about the bass that is different than just the "operational" considerations.
I really have come to love playing bass in a very special way (which I can not seem to express accurately); but another BC player probably knows exactly what I am talking about. I never felt a "oneness" with the soprano as I do with the bass; I play just fine but....
Tangentially, I've seen a lot DS's BC modifications and creations in person and I know that he understands. He is also a great bari player (now there is a different breed as well - I like that axe too).
I shall keep searching.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-12-09 13:35
Attachment: k.png (1k)
> I really have come to love playing bass in a very special way (which I can
> not seem to express accurately); but another BC player probably knows
> exactly what I am talking about.
This BC player does. (or thinks he does)
For me it's that soothing voice that goes straight to my heart. Like when as a young pup I fell down and grazed my knee, someone big would take me in their arms and hum "now, now, dontcha weep, son".
(Yesterday I played the organ intro from Kooyanisqaatsi in an empty church. Goose pimples...)
--
Ben
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-12-09 16:14
While I'm not a huge fan of say Tibetan Sound Bowls (or rather of the sometimes underlying esoteric ideas), ever since I've started Bass Clarinet I can comprehend the effect of sound on our body.
(I can also comprehend it when I hear a piccolo, but to a slightly less comfortable degree. Even more so with two not-quite-in-tune piccoloes, but I digress)
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-12-09 17:24
Ben, if you want to Feel the Power of Lowness, may I suggest the BBb contrabass clarinet? I've been playing one of the straight metal Leblanc models lately (unfortunately not mine, belongs to a friend), and it is a lot of fun. Gets the whole system vibrating, it does! Might not be a Zen-like experience, probably more akin to an IMAX movie. Dr. Hank, you need one of these as well.
In fact, everyone should have a contrabass clarinet. I would like to assemble hundreds of BBb contra players to perform holiday music as a counterpoint to the "Tuba Christmas" gathering every year in town here (DC), where hundreds of tubists and euphoniumists (sic) get together and play Low Music in public. The clarinet community must not let the vile brass players get all the attention!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-12-09 18:56
Speaking of Low-something Contra-something clarinets - I do have an EEb straight Leblanc that awaits some tweaking.
(It must be under all that plaster that has come down from the ceiling, I'm quite positive it is. Well it *must* be there.)
I agree that a world where everyone had access to a musical instrument would be a better world, because people would start to play with each other instead of against each other. Power to the basses I say.
--
Ben
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-12-09 19:45
Not sure I completely agree with your last sentence, Ben (although your dream/vision is truly beyond reproach). In the orchestras I'm involved with, the woodwinds definitely play AGAINST the brass and the percussion. With the strings we have an uneasy peace. Within the woodwind section, however, we are a tight little family. Even though I blow my gnarly bass clarinet right in the piccolo-ist's ear, she was kind enough to compliment me the other day! And of course I reciprocated (she's quite a good picc player). If only the various nations of the world could get along so well...... ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-12-09 20:03
Dunno...we were taught/urged/forced/nudged to play as a single entity. Of course, everybody (especially the brass) knows that (especially the brass) is into pushing the musical showdown into people's throats. But we (the woods) are the dependable team players whom no one (especially the brass) can whack out of balance.
You see, we're one single (including even the brass) homogeneous organism, an no one (not even the brass) can separate us. We're one (plus the brass). We're Borg. Well, Borg'n'brass.
--
Ben
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