 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2018-07-25 12:06
Buffet clarinets as they are when leaving Buffet's factories (especially those in France?) seem to need to be more or less rebuilt to function properly.
There is also almost a kind of sub-industry about choosing out the good ones from the bad ones, where the bad ones are considered beyond saving by any rebuild or similar.
My questions is how to choose a "good one" by yourself, without the services of this sub-industry? What are the specific things I should look for? Also information about Buffet bass clarinets in this regard would be of interest, along the "regular" ones.
This subject has surely been touched before, but at least my own search attempts didn't get but fragmented results. Thus I'm now posting this as a specific topic. A link to possible, comprehensive previous posts would be more than welcomed.
Of course a lot could be said about the morals of such a company policy as Buffet's, and some of you may want to suggest other makers (personally I'm already a "non-Buffet" player since a very long time), but lets try to keep this thread to the actual topic  .
Post Edited (2018-07-25 12:19)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-25 14:52
"Back-in-the-day" it was a given that you needed a number of clarinets (any clarinet....but "back-in-the-day" it was just Selmer and Buffet) in front of you (at least five if possible) so that you could choose amongst them to find the one that responded and tuned best for you. Some of that is HOW you play. Some of that is variation from horn to horn. Some of that is caused by what happens to wood AFTER fabrication, finishing....and all the things that happen to the inert clarinet before it gets into your hands from France.
That hasn't changed much today except variation from horn to horn is quite low. I don't know for sure how much Buffet has gone to CNC production, but I had tried quite a few R13s in the past ten years and found them to be quite a bit more constant in playability across the board.
That said, the finishing (pads and corks) for the R13 has become even poorer. The "cork" key silencers are now this smushy white foam that compresses quickly and changes tolerances just as quick. This is just what you DO NOT want at the "one-and-one Bb" and the "crow's foot."
And then there are the perfunctory bladder pads that are put on the basic R13. They may last a year or so, but even the initial seal can be less than satisfactory. Of course many many players would immediately re-pad a new Buffet horn as a matter of course anyway......at least "back-in-the-day."
That all said, it would still be ideal to try at least one other horn against what you choose so that you have a comparison.
But with any trial you should be "tuner certain" that you are happy with how the twelfths, octaves, and close fourths and fifths tune before you buy.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2018-07-25 16:21
I'm not sure why you want to go it alone. There is a minimum selling price for professional Buffet clarinets. I don't know what others charge, but I know that Lisas Clarinet Shop sells it for the minimum selling price even though her repair technician sometimes changes all the pads and does minor tuning work. I believe she goes to Buffet once a month to pick out the clarinets. Others are also going to the warehouse to pick out clarinets. The stores get what is left.
Steve Ocone
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2018-07-25 19:16
Buffet, as great as they are (use to be?), aren't quite up to snuff. They are living off the brand name. I'd suggest throwing a wider net on brand choices. Eg, the Yamaha CSVR out R13s the R13 (my opionion). I'm an Superior Uebel guy...best horn I've ever played.
My point you have (better) choices you might want to consider.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: gatto
Date: 2018-07-25 19:56
Don't forget that there is not only the R13. There is also the Festival, the Prestige, the RC, the Tradition...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-25 20:22
I know opinions vary quite a bit about horns out there. But IF you are looking at Buffet, the R13 has stood the test of time for REAL GOOD REASONS. If you take a brief survey of gainfully employed symphonic players, you'd still find a preponderance of R13s out there. Part of that is lingering tradition, part of that is practical.....you want to MATCH the pitch and timbre of the gal/guy seated next to you with least amount of "gymnastics."
The Buffet horns are still great. Though, yes, Ricardo Morales and Corrado Giuffredi seem to be doing alright with the top of the line Backuns.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2018-07-25 20:37
Looking for a possible "upgrade" to my Wurlitzers from 2002 I've recently tried out clarinets from Schwenk & Seggelke, Leitner & Kraus, Dietz, Frank Hammerschmidt and Wurlitzer (their current models), but I would also like to give such as Buffets and Selmers a try. In a few days I'm going to a shop and not a warehouse, to try out just what they have (a Festival and a RC Prestige as well as a Selmer Privilege and a Presence - the Tosca, Divine and Tradition I've already tried out previously). Thus I would like to know what to look for in a "good" Buffet.
The shop in question says their Buffets have been "hand picked", but I would like to be able to verify that for myself.
Thank you Paul for your specific advice, concerning what to check about tuning.
Post Edited (2018-07-26 09:43)
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Author: gatto
Date: 2018-07-25 20:41
Okay, if you want to restrict to the USA... in (continental) Europe the R13 does not play much of a role; the most popular models on the professional level are Tosca, RC Prestige, Festival and RC.
For me it seems that the R13 nowadays is rather an intermediate level clarinet, below the Vintage, Festival, Prestige, Tosca...
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-07-25 21:14
This doesn't seem to be an area where certainty or precision in comparing is really possible. You can try 20 of a particular model and miss the 21st which might be a great instrument and very different from the others. One thing, though. As many people have said, the instrument, mouthpiece and reed style and strength all need to match one another and your playing style. It would help you a lot to get used to playing on a setup that works well with a Buffet before trying to differentiate between good and average Buffets. Trying them out on a setup that works great with Wurlitzers might give you some deceptive results, because the instrument designs aim at somewhat different things.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-25 22:43
Very good point regarding comparison to Wurlitzer! I transitioned myself from Wurlitzer 100cs to Buffet R13 around 2001. I knew that particular Buffet would be a "transition horn." There is just no comparison between the two on any level (pitch , resistace, feel, mouthpieces, reeds). Just five years later I traded it for my current Yamaha CSG.
..........Paul Aviles.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-25 22:51
Well I sold 16 Buffets and went to Yamaha. End of story.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: YT
Date: 2018-07-26 00:23
Micke, can you tell us anything about your experiences with the Frank Hammerschmidt instruments? And maybe also the Leitner und Kraus? Would be very interested to hear something about those instruments...
YT
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2018-07-26 17:37
I will be going against common sense and try out the Buffets and Selmers with a PlayEasy A' mouthpiece with Viennese facing and a German bore (15,0 mm, not the Viennese bore of about 15,3 mm), as well as a regular Wurlitzer German barrel (with the required amount of pull-out).
I know that especially the barrel will create tuning issues, but at this stage I'm concentrating on sound. If this combo gives me the sound that I'm after, then the next step would be to find out if the tuning issues could be fixed or not.
The reason why I want to involve a German barrel besides the Viennese mouthpiece is because of it's great impact on the sound.
I know from this board that it's not totally uncommon with a German mouthpiece fitted to a French clarinet, and I also know about a few people using Viennese mouthpieces with French clarinets (though the bore of the mouthpiece should preferably be rather German than Viennese).
Perhaps an crazy idea, but in my experience sometimes the unexpected may work better then the expected - or it may work for you, while it doesn't work for others. So also uncommon paths may be worth exploring.
But, if the Buffet I get in my hands happens to be a dude and I can't verify if it's or not, then the whole experiment could be distorted .
YT: Check your e-mail for my message to you.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-26 17:53
Micke,
I have had a two year experiment going that started off with German mouthpieces modified to fit a Boehm clarinet. Mr. Bas DeJong of Viotto mouthpieces sent me an N1+ that actually worked quite well. Of course one must realize that the German mouthpiece, though having a smaller overall internal volume, is LONGER than a Boehm mouthpiece (here's where it would be great if an acoustic physicist could chime in!). My experience is that the altissimo notes become flatter (more so for the highest). It can be somewhat "correctable" with some judicious firming up of the embouchure, but in the end, I found it less than satisfactory.
When I made the "jump," it was with the full Boehm set-up. As I said earlier, adjusting to a full Boehm set-up took some time before I could make reasonable judgements. So the bottom line is that either way you go, you will not be able to make an accurate assessment of pitch on the spot (or in less than a few months anyway).
Good luck! Re-adapting to a new acoustic paradigm is NOT easy.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: richard smith
Date: 2018-07-26 18:03
visit the factory. try all , including barrels and bells. select and purchase one or two. have your technician make final adjustments. Both Portnoy and Gigliotti gave me this advice.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-07-26 20:15
These discussions always result in pretty much the same:
a)OP must try other instruments or
b)OP must visit the Buffet factory and try a number of instruments
With c) people saying the R13 is THE standard symphonic clarinet...
Sorry, even if you're most enthusiastic about choosing the perfect clarinet, does visiting the Buffet Paris factory seem adequate? How long will you have to travel?
The R13 is NOT the one and only orchetral clarinet and particularly not in Europe, so I guess option a) seems most logical.
Now if you play on a German MPC and barrel, why not try the Yamaha CSG III? It has shorter barrels and seems to work well with the Zoom German barrel and thus might also comply with a German MPC. Alternatively, Reform Boehm clarinets seem to suit your needs ideally, as they're designed to work with German MPCs, too.
On the other hand, I know an excellent, soon-to-be pro girl that uses Boehm MPCs on her L&K without any tuning issues, so I guess it can work either way. That being said, if you like that particular setup, why not chose your clarinet accordingly?
Post Edited (2018-07-26 20:18)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2018-07-26 20:58
Already tried the CSGIII about two years ago, but the sound I got from it wasn't what I'm after. Tuning however was quite good, and better than on the Buffets I tried along it.
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-07-26 22:59
Of course it's over for this year, but ClarinetFest would be a fantastic place to go for R13s. With the big Buffet display and numerous vendors with selected and/or modified Buffets, you could probably try several dozen of them, and buy one on the spot. I don't know, never having tried, but I'd guess that if one of us unknowns showed up at the Buffet factory, our options would not be unlimited. I am, BTW, guilty of disregarding my own advice. I spent some time trying out S&S French bore instruments with a B&H 1010 mouthpiece. Sounded great and the tuning wasn't bad, except for being massively flat over the whole range. You can probably find ways of fudging apparently inappropriate mouthpieces, but that's not the path of least resistance.
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