 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-07-04 20:18
Hi,
I just stumbled across an e-Bay listing for a re-pad service that includes new tenon corks and key corks, all of it for just $99.
Can you please read my situation below and give me some advice?
I am (now) an amateur, playing in a local band. I re-started playing after a break of 26 years. I currently play an E12 Buffet I bought from a local person, whose son used it in high school. I think this E12 is about 12-15 y. o.
I recently bought a used (from year 2000) R13 off e-Bay, which was described as seller refurbished, however needed all new pads.
At first, I considered doing it myself- I changed pads and tenon corks before, one time I re-padded a Boosey&Hawkes (which I sold on e-bay a few years back).
However, that B&H clarinet would not hold vacuum that well.
So, after considering that I would have to buy all the supplies (pads, alcohol lamp or better, butane burner, butane fuel, etc.), I started looking for a local repairman in NY/NJ.
One person (highly recommended on this forum) said he would not do a simple re-pad but would do a total overhaul for $700, which I could not afford.
In addition, I did not think the R13 needed a total overhaul because the metal/keys looked fine (except one that was slightly loose) and I did not see any visible damage on tone holes.
Another repairman was recommended by my daughter's violin teacher. He agreed to re-pad, install new tenon corks and do necessary adjustments for "just" $350. He said that it was the lowest price he could do. He sounded like he really knew what he would be doing.
I am supposed to get back my "new" R13 this weekend.
A couple of days ago, while practicing on the E12, I found some increased resistance blowing lower E-F and upper B-C notes. After checking it out, I found a ripped pad on a trill key on the upper joint. I replaced the pad and now it plays better.
However, in order to remove the trill keys, I had to remove the F-sharp and E-flat/B-flat side keys. I noted that those pads, while not ripped, could use replacements too, as well as the C-sharp/g-sharp (left pinky).
The upper joint on this E12 does hold pressure but does not hold vacuum well.
So, now I am back in the same boat: do I try the re-pad it myself or go to a professional?
The keys on this E12 are in fine condition, as well as the tone holes (as far as I can see).
I estimate that buying good quality pads, glue and heat source would set me back by $50-$100 (depending if I get an alcohol lamp or a burner).
Did any one have experience with any of the mail re-pad services?
If yes, what do you think? If possible, in you reply, please, state your level (amateur, semi-pro, pro).
Thanks a lot for reading this very long post.
I really appreciate your help.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-07-04 20:49
Without knowing who is offering the service, I'd say this sounds too good to be true and suspect that it probably is. Here on the BB we read countless tales of poorly done repair and reconditioning work done by repair people in local brick-n-mortar repair shops, not even web-based services. Tearing out a set of pads and plunking in new ones by itself probably doesn't take too long, but seating everything so that it seals does. Ripping off tenon corks and slapping on new ones likewise can be done quickly but doing it so the corks work easily and won't tear off in a month or two takes a little more care. And the fact that you can't see tone hole nicks doesn't mean there aren't any, unless you've disassembled the instrument and looked carefully with a loupe. And you have no way to know what quality pads have been installed or what kind of adhesive was used to mount them.
If I were in your situation, I would spend the money, as you are doing, having the R-13 done well by a (hopefully) well-qualified tech. Then (given that you already have experience with pad replacement) I'd probably take the keys off the E-12 and see what the overall condition is. If you know which pads are involved - several of the pads should be the same size (my clarinets have a lot of 10mm pads) - you can buy the individual sizes in small quantities for a few dollars plus shipping from Music Medic or Ferree's. Even if in the end you spend your estimate of $50-$100, you'll still have saved money and will probably have pads left over plus the reusable gas or alcohol burner (and maybe a pad slick) for next time.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-04 22:13
First thing to try if doing this yourself would be to tape up the "padded" holes (when all the keys are off) with plastic tape (or gaffer's tape or duck tape) and do your initial pressure and negative pressure test this way. There are issues such as cracks in the wood, or leaks around the thumb tube or register tube that could be causing a poor seal (poor, non-resonant sound) beyond a leaky pad.
Also, for "selfies," I would highly recommend the Valentino Greenback pads. They are a white, synthetic foam pad that are really forgiving of tone hole irregularities, seal like a coke bottle and will last pretty much forever.
That said, a professional job is the BEST way to go. I am pretty picky about to whom I would send a horn and there are only a handful of repair techs in the country that do a superlative job. I recently was quoted $270 plus supplies (ie the pads themselves....depends on the type you want) from a very good tech in Nashville. That was an amazing price and does NOT include any other work but the padding itself (charge by the hour and any other situations take more time).
No, I would not just pick a budget offer. The pads will be perfunctory at best and probably won't last more than a year.
...........Paul Aviles (retired professional; audio engineer)
Post Edited (2018-07-04 22:25)
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2018-07-04 22:29
If it were mine, I'd take the E12 to my technician for a "play-condition" service rather than a full overhaul: Pads, bumper corks, tenon corks, and wood faults would be repaired only as needed, and the instrument would be lubricated and regulated.
Then, the non-maintenance-related virtues and faults of the clarinet would reveal themselves in the course of normal playing. You'll be able to make an informed decision on whether to then invest in a total overhaul.
That said, it sure seems likely to me that with a freshly-overhauled R13 in your studio, the E12 is not going to be your main instrument anyway. With that in mind, the E12 could very well serve all your needs with just regular play-condition servicing.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-07-05 00:22
I know this is going to sound silly, but check out Zheng Hao synthetic pads. They're supposed to be copies of Valentino pads, but they are somehow the most forgiving and easy to install pads I've ever used. They cost about $0.25 apiece but they take awhile to ship from China. I keep these pads around for toneholes that are damaged to the point that no other pad will seal. Leather pads are also much easier to seat than regular skin pads so if you don't like the idea of synthetic pads consider that as a second option. Both of these options will also last longer than synthetic pads.
Also no need to get an alcohol lamp. A simple butane lighter is great for DIY instrument repair if you are on a budget.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-07-05 00:53
jdbassplayer wrote:
> Also no need to get an alcohol lamp. A simple butane lighter is
> great for DIY instrument repair if you are on a budget.
>
> -Jdbassplayer
Hi Jdbassplayer,
Thanks for your advice about the pads. I used a lighter before and, besides slightly burning my fingers, it left black residue on the keys. So for the multiple usage I can justify $8 lamp or even a $50 butane lab- type burner like the one sold on Votawtools or by Wall Lenk.
I am not sure if the alcohol lamp leaves any residue on the keys, the butane burner is not supposed to.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-07-05 01:54
A butane lighter is different than a regular lighter (sometimes they're sold in stores as "wind proof" lighters to differentiate them). Unlike a regular lighter it won't leave behind black residue (carbon). Butane lighters are the kind that produce a blue cone shaped flame that can accurately heat a small area. I personally find alcohol burners harder to use as the flame they produce is much bigger, meaning it's easier to burn pads and corks by accident, but that's just me. I bought my favorite butane lighter from dollar general for $4 an so far I've used it to fix dozens of clarinets.
Also to answer your question, alcohol lamps shouldn't leave behind residue.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-07-05 02:02
>> I used a lighter before and, besides slightly burning my fingers, it left black residue on the keys. <<
Yes, the flame is sometimes dirtier and I think it depends on the lighter (or fluid) because it doesn't always do that. Burning yourself a little and being really annoying are good reasons to not use a lighter
>> I am not sure if the alcohol lamp leaves any residue on the keys, the butane burner is not supposed to. <<
I use an alcohol lamp and a butane burner and torch and neither leave any of that dark (black?) residue like some lighters do.
Obviously I haven't seen all repads by every repairer... and prices in different markets vary... but I've seen many (including from the USA where I assume you are from) and nothing good was anywhere near that price, or even significantly more.
Sometimes there are very obvious problems like certain notes not playing, having to press some keys very hard, etc.
A possible problem with a "half decent" repad is that often the instrument doesn't really seal, but feels sort of ok. There is nothing obvious. The player often doesn't know it is actually more resistant than it should be.
>> I noted that those pads, while not ripped, could use replacements too <<
Not sure how you checked, but pads can look very dirty and old but seal and not cause any issues, if that is how you suspect they need to be replaced.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-07-05 06:16
m1964 wrote:
> jdbassplayer wrote:
>
> > Also no need to get an alcohol lamp. A simple butane lighter
> is
> > great for DIY instrument repair if you are on a budget.
> >
> > -Jdbassplayer
>
> Hi Jdbassplayer,
> Thanks for your advice about the pads. I used a lighter before
> and, besides slightly burning my fingers, it left black residue
> on the keys.
I generally used a butane lighter when I did spot emergency repairs on kids' instruments when I taught in the schools. For one thing, having an alcohol lamp or a butane burner violated school policy, so I had to hide them to avoid having the custodians confiscate them when they cleaned after school.
But having to hold a lighter occupied one hand. The big advantage to having a standalone heat source is that it leaves both hands free to handle the work.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-07-05 07:04
Paul Aviles wrote:
"First thing to try if doing this yourself would be to tape up the "padded" holes (when all the keys are off) with plastic tape (or gaffer's tape or duck tape) and do your initial pressure and negative pressure test this way. There are issues such as cracks in the wood, or leaks around the thumb tube or register tube that could be causing a poor seal (poor, non-resonant sound) beyond a leaky pad."
Hi Paul,
When I changed pads before, I would take all the keys off and used children's clay to block all the tone holes.
Then I would re-install keys one by one (in the reverse order).
I do not see any cracks in the wood but I appreciate you pointing out possible problems with the thumb and register tubes.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-07-05 07:27
Clarnibass wrote:
"Not sure how you checked, but pads can look very dirty and old but seal and not cause any issues, if that is how you suspect they need to be replaced."
Hi Clarnibass,
I believe that the other pads may need to be changed because the upper (and lower) joint would not hold the vacuum.
The clarinet (E12) is in very decent condition, it is playable as it is and it actually sounds very good.
I did not play the "new" R13 that much because I thought the instrument was very dry and I was afraid it would crack. It came from Texas, and the upper ring on the barrel was not seated completely but I was able to push it down without any major effort.
I oiled the bore a couple of times before I gave it to the technician, and I plan to oil it again before starting to play it.
I am not sure how much better the R13 is going to sound comparing to my E12; if I do not feel any major difference I may just sell the R13 and keep playing the E12.
But, if I like the R13, I may need to sell the E12 and it probably would be easier to sell if it was re-padded.
I just want to make sure that, if I do the re-pad myself, I can do a decent job.
In any case, it looks like the vote is a "NO" to a $99 re-pad.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-05 08:01
Good repairman go to special schools for about a year or more. As long as 4 years if they want to learn how to repair all of the band instruments.
It's easy to throw on pads and not have them seal. Buffet can't seal a pad. All of their horns leak, so players have to have their new horns fixed by good repairmen. Even then they often still aren't right.
I think $700 is a very fair deal. To repad a horn, then fix the height of the keys, tune the horn, it's a 2 to 3 day job. 3 days if you have cork pads put on the upper register. So it's around $30 to $45 per hour. Plus supplies, rent, all of that education. The person really isn't making much. This is why I don't do repairs except for poor kids. Also the gross conditions of the horns. Some tone holes are of food and it's just nasty. $700 is a deal.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2018-07-05 22:55)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-05 08:29
Dear "m1964,"
One other issue that I had run into years ago was that one of the posts for the throat "A key" was tapped too deeply and tiny hole protruded into the bore of an R13 causing a leak. Using the "tape method" I looked closely at the bore to discover the source of the mysterious leak.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-07-05 10:36
I dread to think what a $99 repad will be like.
I sometimes get people complaining that I charge too much for a full overhaul and then some who go on to say they know someone who can do an "overhaul" for £100.
The results speak for themselves.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-07-05 16:41
Paul Aviles wrote:
"One other issue that I had run into years ago was that one of the posts for the throat "A key" was tapped too deeply and tiny hole protruded into the bore of an R13 causing a leak. Using the "tape method" I looked closely at the bore to discover the source of the mysterious leak".
Hi Paul,
I have not experienced leaks from the post holes but I am not a pro so I have only dealt with my personal clarinets - one was really old french "stencil" clarinet and had all sorts of issues like lose posts, "throat" A spring binding, left low F not lifting/ binding the right F/C key, wobbly keys, etc.
However, I hope that a recently made Buffet which had not been abused should not have posts protruding into the bore...
It is in a decent playable condition but I'd like it to hold the vacuum.
Thanks for your help.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-07-05 16:58
Chris P. wrote:
"I dread to think what a $99 repad will be like.
I sometimes get people complaining that I charge too much for a full overhaul and then some who go on to say they know someone who can do an "overhaul" for £100.
The results speak for themselves"
Hi Chris,
I am not questioning prices charged for a full overhaul, esp. on an older instrument. IF I played professionally I would want my clarinet to be reliable and be able to focus on music and not on how hard I need to press a key just to make a sound.
However, I am not a pro player, not well off, so I have to look for "bargains".
However, $99 re-pad does seem to be too good to be true and that is why I posted the question in this forum.
BTW, does any one have an opinion about oiling the bore?
I used Selmer/Conn bore oil very lightly on my newly acquired R13, twice.
I know that Buffet does not recommend using bore oil, at least on recent instruments.
Thanks for your help.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-07-05 18:21
Clarinet DIY Service can be fun and I sometimes do repairs for friends at a rather low price, but even then I need to charge them around 120€ (140$) for a Boehm model and I don't make a fortune at all. Sure, a real tech is going to be faster, but properly setting key height, spring tension, etc. simply takes its time. The problem is that you cannot go around doing so. Nobody is going to benefit from a poorly set up instrument, not even a beginner. I know I can compensate a leaking clarion B/C, but it's neither fun nor necesarry - and this might drive beginners nuts.
So either learn it yourself if you have the time and want to safe money - though you'll need to buy a bit of equipment - or give it to a tech that you can trust. They really don't make a fortune.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-05 18:55
Bore oiling advice depends on who you talk to (and in some cases the instrument). I would say, you can do a light treatment once a month or so along with regular key oiling maintenance. Bottom line is that bore oil won't hurt a horn and because of its water repellent properties, it may help prevent problems that can be caused by the expansion and contraction of the wood (caused by the presence of condensation in the bore).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-07-05 19:00
m1964 wrote:
> I know that Buffet does not recommend using bore oil, at least
> on recent instruments.
>
As far as I know, Buffet has never recommended using bore oil, at least as far back as my student experience in the 1960s. That is, for a new instrument or one that has been in steady use.
I'm not sure that even Buffet wouldn't condone oiling a clarinet that had been sitting unused in poor conditions for an extended period of time. You don't say (and may not know) how the R-13 has spent its 18 years of life.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-05 23:15
Agree with Karl on this one. Some bore oil is or can be toxic. You have to be so careful here even if the bore oil says it natural the shelf life can or usually is limited. For example natural oils you use for cooking say olive oil has a limited shelf life at a supermarket/grocery store and then it goes bad. same with bore oil. anything over 6 months or so I wouldn't use it and as Karl says I don't use it anyway because it will expand the inside bores and cause tuning issues, until it is whipped out slowly with your clarinet swab and even then the wood has absorbed a lot of the oil. So you are stuck with a smaller bore for many years.
I can see doing this to a horn that hasn't been played on for 20 years and really needs some serious attention. But even then I'd question doing this depending on how dry the inside of the bore is. If there are open gaps in the grain I think i might, but I'd play on the horn for a bit to see if these close up from moisture first.
If you use bore oil use rubber gloves.
I've read about people using this on reeds and I think they are totally nuts.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: bsnake1956
Date: 2018-07-06 00:44
WOW!!
$30-$45 an hour
× 40 hours a week
× 48 weeks
(4 weeks vacation)
= $76,800 U.S. a year ($96,000 CANADIAN)
Nothing wrong with these prices if you are a professional or have a money tree out back. If you think $700.00 U.S. ($875.00 Can. ) is a good price for cork replacement pads and regulation, it is time to ship your horns North. Up here $506.00 U.S. (632.00 Can.) will get you a complete replating plus repad and regulation. The horn will play magnificently. This is not me advertising. I am the player, not the people that work on my horns. Off line, I am willing to send you pictures of my horns and give you the addresses of the repairman up here that charge sane prices for their expertise.
I am just trying to keep things in perspective.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2018-07-06 01:58
Dear "bsnake1956,"
You forgot to subtract all the materials and expenses (ie rent or mortgage of the shop real estate) of doing all that labor above not to mention expenses of learning this work.
Up there in Canada you have both John Weir of Taplin-Weir and Peter Spriggs both very competent repair people I would trust with my horn. No one should have a problem providing fair compensation to those who have demonstrated that ability time and time again.
Now if there are others who are not receiving what they should for outstanding service, that would be a temporary boon for bargain hunters (and there may be a few out there), but just keep in mind that you would prefer to receive a livable wage for whatever you do for a living. And if you were not, no one would fault you for seeking a different line of work.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2018-07-06 02:30
What I charge per hour is not what I make. One way to determine fair compensation is to find out going rate in your area for computer repair, watch repair, electrical work, auto repair, etc. I pay rent, insurance, utilities, supplies, taxes, etc. I'm not paid for time spent on the phone, maintaining the shop, doing estimates, balancing the books, etc.
There may be a few people working in the corner of their basement who do reasonable work for a low price, but usually you get what you pay for.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-07-06 03:01
Yes I agree with these people whom are posting. A good repairman like Steve can seal a horn and the pads and joints that surely won't leak. You will get a one minute seal. With a NEW Buffet you might get 1 second. Take advantage of these pros. Money well spent. Top quality pads and cork are used so the next time you need repairing done it will be in several years, not 2 months later. But there is a need to have your horns serviced once a year, keys oiled with special thick oils and maybe cleaned for a few dollars. Then in 10 years your horns are still in great condition.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2018-07-06 09:27)
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Author: m1964
Date: 2018-07-06 03:16
bsnake1956 wrote:
"WOW!! $30-$45 an hour × 40 hours a week × 48 weeks (4 weeks vacation) = $76,800 U.S. a year ($96,000 CANADIAN)
Nothing wrong with these prices if you are a professional or have a money tree out back. If you think $700.00 U.S. ($875.00 Can. ) is a good price for cork replacement pads and regulation, it is time to ship your horns North".
Bsnake,
The $700 was a price around NYC. Everything is overpriced here comparing to the rest of the US.
Also, I was told it would be a complete overhaul which my R13 did not require.
BTW, to send an instrument to Canada, insured, would probably cost about $100-$125, so the total cost of such job may be comparable to the one done locally.
Anyway, in 3-4 days I wil be able to tell you what $325 repair is like.
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Author: bsnake1956
Date: 2018-07-06 03:59
Hey Paul:
Point taken and you are of course correct. I know John and Patty at Tappin-Weir (as a matter of fact, I played with Patty for a whole season) and they do absolutely top of the line work. But they do not charge that kind of money ($850-$900 Can.) for some pads and a regulation.
I will not speak for the U.S. but up here to be a licenced auto mechanic takes 5 years of college plus apprentiship, and you provide your own tools, plus pay rent and taxes for your garage. I did not forget anything, up here that is the price of doing business.
As per Tappin-Weir, they are in Toronto, which is the equivalent in Canada of doing business in downtown New York city. My repair man is in London Ontario, so to your point, he does excellent work, but does not have that kind of overhead.
Thanks for responding, and I appreciate your contributions to this bboard.
Blake
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-07-06 08:28
>> I am just trying to keep things in perspective. <<
That perspective is distorted. Your post ignored a few small details like all the things Steve mentioned. It's too specific to generalize about one area being the same as another, there are too many things that can affect it. Maybe it's overpriced or maybe they do have much higher expenses. You never know what affects someone's prices (random example: enormous medical bills that you get for "free" in another country).
That said, price doesn't always mean everything and I've seen some terrible but very expensive repairs and some repairs that were surprisingly good for their cost.
>> ...for some pads and a regulation. <<
That's why I don't use terms like repad, overhaul, etc. and instead describe exactly what is done. I just did a "rapad", or "overhaul", or whatever you would call it. Replacing the pads and corks wasn't most of the work and this clarinet wasn't in a particularly bad condition (i.e. not many stuck screws, needing new rods made, etc.).
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2018-07-09 22:35
If you like the idea of spending $99 then go to a good repair person and tell them to do $100 of work
Freelance woodwind performer
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