 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-06-15 14:28
To many models equals difficulty in turning a proper profit?
Post Edited (2018-06-17 15:42)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-06-15 17:35
Clarineteer wrote:
> To many models lead equals difficulty in turning a proper
> profit?
That doesn't really make any sense, in order for a business to thrive it must constantly adapt. By continuously offering new models, Buffet is drawing interest in their products. Its like what Apple does. Sure a 3 year old iPhone works just fine, but the constant offering of new products encourages people to upgrade.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: gavalanche20
Date: 2018-06-15 18:55
To add to jdbassplayers’s analogy, there haven’t really been exponential improvements in clarinet design like there has been on the phone. So a 10 year old clarinet is far more viable today than a 10 year old phone.
May I ask where you heard that Buffet was up for sale?
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-06-15 19:26
When new models are launched there are considerable costs for tooling and other things that have to be paid before profits are realized.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-06-15 19:49
The same machines that are used for making other models can easily be adapted to make newer models with only simple changes in programming. Everything is computer controlled these days, and CNC bits and reamers for lathes are cheap. Besides the design of newer models only really differs in bore geometry and plating material from other models.
The fact that Buffet is offering new models is also a sign that they have money to invest in R&D, another sign that they are doing well.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-15 20:35
My issue with Buffet and others I'm sure agree is the final product in the case. It is substandard. Pads leak, and in a lot of cases the horns are unplayable. So when you buy a Buffet, the most popular is the R13, you have to have it repaired and setup. Sometimes there are dead notes, key heights need adjustments, spring tension, and alignments.
So they have problems. So top musicians and repairmen actually go to the Florida plant, if in the USA and hand pick selected horns and mark them up $300 or more.
This to me is just wrong. That the horns are this far off and people can actually make a living picking out the best horns and selling them at a higher price. It shows that Buffet needs help, so if they are up for sale I hope a serious restructure takes place, getting rid of the dead weight and they find people that can actually seal a pad, to complicated adjustments such as making fine reamers and undercutting holes. Added gifted musicians from music schools that have the guts to start rejecting horns which are horrible with the ability to do do minor adjustments to the horns so they play well right out of the case. Send these musicians to repair schools perhaps. Teach them how to do make great horns.
We the public shouldn't have to test 10 to 15 horns to find that 1 good one. Added to the problem is when we the players test the horns we have to test them in crappy dead soundproof rooms where you can't hear a thing.
Buffet needs to be sold to save them. Sold to the right company.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2018-06-16 10:39)
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Author: gavalanche20
Date: 2018-06-15 21:02
I don't get it. Whether or not Buffet needs to be sold, nobody in this thread has provided evidence that they are for sale. To be quite frank, until someone provides such evidence this thread is really just baseless speculation. I understand the frustration many people have towards Buffet, but just because we think a company needs to be sold, it doesn't necessarily follow that a sale is actually going to happen.
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Author: andy63
Date: 2018-06-15 22:34
Its still a good thread for people to moan and groan and tell each other how much they hate Buffet.😁
Buffet Tosca ,Buffet Rc Greenline ,Yamaha YCl-881 Eb
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-16 10:48
I agree that this is a good thread. Hope someone at Buffet reads this, but they won't do anything. We've been upset for years.
Yet they can't seal a pad. Something so simple. They don't bother. Just throw on a mess of pads and charge somewhere between $4000 to $11,000. The players will just have to spend another $800 or so and take the horn to a really good repairman to get a NEW defective horn fixed.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-06-16 12:07
>> The same machines that are used for making other models can easily be adapted to make newer models with only simple changes in programming. <<
Sometimes, but it depends. There are a lot of situation that don't work exactly like that.
>> Everything is computer controlled these days <<
AFAIK Buffet still uses a spinning reamer connected at one end and a person pushing the upper section and barrel over it to make the final bore (before sanding and polishing). If not, then it's a very recent change (but AFAIK this method and slight variability is part of their basic concept).
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Author: BAS57
Date: 2018-06-24 20:14
It seems likely that at some point Buffet will be sold again, as ownership has basically shuttled between private equity firms for the last fifteen years.
In 2003, Buffet Crampon was owned by Boosey and Hawkes. To pay off debt, Boosey sold Buffet, Schreiber, and Besson to Rutland Fund Management, a private equity fund known for turnarounds of distressed businesses. The price for all 3 was 33m euros.
In 2005, Rutland sold Buffet to Argos Siditic (another PE firm) for 37m euros. From 2005-2012, Buffet, now known as The Buffet Group, made several acquisitions of other brands like Keilworth and Besson.
In 2012, The Buffet Group was sold to a French private equity firm, Fondations Capital for 58m euros.
The above time lines fit with the fact that PE firms typically have 5-10 year time horizons on their funds. A PE firm will sell acquired companies after that time in order to pay back their own investors.
I do not know anything about Fondations Capital's strategy specifically, so this is all conjecture, but given the typical private equity fund time horizon, Buffet is probably more likely to be sold as time goes on. Buffet was purchased by Fondations 6 years ago and private equity firms generally do not hold companies for more than 10 years.
I also do not know anything about Buffet's current financials, but it seems likely Fondations would be able to sell it for a decent price given that 1) it is currently very easy for PE firms to borrow money with interest rates being so low; 2) investors love strong brands like Buffet and Steinway for a variety of reasons such as they allow for lower customer acquisition costs and allow for some measure of pricing power; and 3) Buffet has acquired other brands like Powell as well.
While all this buying and selling has ensured the growth and survival of Buffet and others, whether any of this activity is good for the quality of the actual clarinets and the musicians who play them is of course still at question. Many of the posters above seem to think quality is deteriorating. Buffet's own input costs can be difficult to control and that can play into it.
At the end of the day, whether or not Buffet is on the block, I'm not sure the sale of the company would generate major changes (positive or negative). Buffet has had private equity owners for 15 years and seems likely to have private equity owners in the future. These owners all have to balance improving profitability with making sure they maintain the perception of the brand among customers as a high quality brand. Failure to do either lowers the value of the company and thus lower their returns. Virtually all the companies/funds that would buy Buffet are subject to these tradeoffs.
Post Edited (2018-06-24 22:19)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-06-25 00:40
Thank you very much for this detailed insight.
Your analysis absolutely is in point, nothing would change if Buffet was sold tomorrow. It seems the average buyer is mostly ignorant of the huge quality differences between copies of one models and/or accepts the poor setup on some. This is IMHO fuelled by many, many pros that endorse Buffet (and some that openly recommend driving to Buffet France and select one clarinet from many), BUT then again if their tonal concept is so well received, why change anything?
My guess is that investors won't care for these details, as long as the brand's image is untouched. And nowadays, they're working pretty hard (for a clarinet maker, that is to say) on a strong online presence. Admittedly their product photos are really neat, even if a clarinet's looks basically don't matter, but don't we enjoy that?
Don't forget about the new Prodige: Not only did the management decide to have the bodies made in France/Germany, Buffet (supposedly) built a workshop in China just for their assembly. That's quite an impressive level of outsourcing, and I'd say their price tag is still extremely competitive given that they're not fully made in China, and were more or less heavily advertised. By now, the Prodige is extremely popular in Europe and an absolute best-seller.
It seems Buffet has managed to remain a highy competitive brand
Post Edited (2018-06-25 00:49)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-06-25 10:26
There is always the possibility that due to major long and short term debt that the company is actually bankrupt. Therefore a sale would be prudent.
Post Edited (2018-06-25 10:27)
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Author: jthole
Date: 2018-06-25 23:06
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There is always the possibility that due to major long and short term debt that the company is actually bankrupt. Therefore a sale would be prudent.
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Is this wishful thinking or so?
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Author: BAS57
Date: 2018-06-26 06:09
Clarineteer:
Why would it be "prudent" to sell a bankrupt company (or at least a company with trouble paying its debts)?
And more relevant to this forum, why would that be good for the quality of the clarinets or Buffet itself?
When Fondations Capital bought Buffet in 2012, they financed it with way less debt than the average private equity acquisition. Debt was 1.5 times EBITDA (a very rough measure of cash flow) vs. 3-6 times Debt/EBITDA for most private buyouts. That 1.5x level of debt should be easy to repay and is one data point that suggests that Fondations Capital are a relatively prudent bunch compared to your average PE firm. Now of course that was 2012 and they could have taken on way more debt when they bought Powell, but profitability would have to have been truly, truly terrible from 2012 to the present in order to have trouble with debt repayment. Also, credit markets are currently strong and they could refinance and push back the debt repayment date. All told, I would highly doubt they are close to bankruptcy.
Even if your speculation is correct and they are having trouble servicing debt, a sale won't help - the debt doesn't magically go away. In that scenario, cost cuts are likely and that certainly won't help the quality of the clarinets. We should not hope for that.
No owner of Buffet wins if the quality goes down enough so that many clarinetists stop automatically choosing Buffet. But the other side of the coin is that no owner can afford to throw so much money at R&D, raw materials, and facilities that quality rises tremendously either. It's a balance and there are always trade-offs, as there are with interpreting a piece of music.
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Author: gatto
Date: 2018-06-27 14:23
For a layman in economics like me it is hard to understand that a brand like Buffet Crampon might have financial problems and even being in danger surviving.
In the professional clarinet world Buffet is *the* global player. It seems that, say, 80 percent of professional clarinetists outside Germany and Austria play a Buffet. One of the big french competitors, Leblanc, does not longer exist. It seems to me that the only competitors of Buffet are Selmer, Yamaha, and maybe now also Backun. So, what could be the problem of a company like Buffet?
It is even more surprising, since it seems that e.g. in Germany there are more and more quite successful small workshops producing (small quantities) of (high quality) clarinets. Maybe something similar is true in the Oboe market.
So is Buffet suffering from their own mass production? What is the problem?
Post Edited (2018-06-27 14:26)
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2018-06-27 18:17
> So is Buffet suffering from their own mass production? What is the problem?
There is no problem. Buffet is doing as good as ever and this thread is just pure speculation with no solid evidence.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-06-27 18:42
Apparently there's been a big political debate in Germany many years ago on the so-called "locusts", a term coined by a pretty relevant politican at that time. This especially, but not only referred to anonymous investors like PE firms. Traditionally, they are perceived more than negatively by the broad public, and it is no wonder that family owned, medium-sized businesses are almost the foundation (haha) of our economy.
See the car industry with its hundreds of suppliers.
Now German clarinet making is also very much defined by small businesses with a pretty high division of work. There's key makers, grenadilla importers more or less specialized in musical instruments, then there's Boehm Tools who specialize in Woodwind tools (their product range covers everything necessary to start clarinet making), etc.
We have a confusingly vast amount of clarinet makers and they all seem to do pretty well, despite not really selling via conventional music stores. I'd go as far as to say that the better part of the German clarinet market is entirely different from any other country,
So of course you'd tend to feel pleasurably confirmed by the fact that the Buffet-owned firm Schreiber isn't taken seriously by any professional German clarinetist (and I can't recall a single one playing them!). Honestly, I whole-heartedly HATE their horns. I hear their bassoons are also pretty crappy.
Does that mean that this PE firm degrades the quality of Buffet products? No one can judge that, but I'm pretty confident that Buffet needs to work on their QC and is mostly overpriced. In the end, the customer decides. We're hopefully done with discussing the deficits of the typical Buffet, they're still the #1 Boehm clarients (sales-wise... )
Edit: Jdbass just summed it up. Buffet is doing well, nothing will change, end of story
Post Edited (2018-06-27 18:55)
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2018-06-27 23:30
Perhaps the company is up for sale for other reasons. I wonder if a Chinese company would be interested in buying them?
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2018-06-28 05:40
"Perhaps the company is up for sale for other reasons. I wonder if a Chinese company would be interested in buying them?"
Why are you so intent upon banging on about this with absolutely no evidence to back it up? Astounding.
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