 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2018-06-13 02:01
I've become curious about tonehole undercutting and how it came into practice. I have long played straightbore clarinets (Selmer CT and Series 9) with no undercutting, and find that I can play them with good intonation (although they are not perfect if I just blow them "dumb loud" as is the norm for testing). This summer I have been buying a number of Vito clarinets to overhaul and supply a middle school program in a poor part of my region, and have noted that the V40 instruments have tonehole undercutting (on six holes), but seem to be otherwise identical to the 7214 instruments (the 7212s have some differences).
It seems like small changes in the tonehole placement can have similar effect but costs in tooling. Mouthpieces seem to also change intonation, particularly in the upper chalumeau. The intonation is changed on the V40, but still doesn't play perfect with all mouthpieces...
While I agree there are some clarinets that have poor intonation (some early Leblancs come to mind, as well as the myriad CSOs from developing economies), but most mainstream clarinets can be played in tune. As a saxophone player as my 'first' woodwind, I'm used to even the best instruments requiring accommodation.
I was struck by THIS ARTICLE ON UNDERCUTTING and the introductory discussion:
Quote:
Traditionally woodwind makers use holes with undercuts for many reasons. First of all, when the instrument is crafted, it iseasier to round the hole inner edge than change its place to correct the tuning. In the case of the development of a numericaloptimization heuristic, known analytical model don’t take into account undercutting in holes, so that they often simply consider adual cylinder connection. For this specific geometry a turbulent flow layer effect has already a prominent dissipative action, evenfor a low excitation pressure equivalent to a piano musical dynamics.
Any thoughts on this? I'm liking the V40s and was thinking about investing in undercut tools, as I'm a reasonably proficient machinist. (until I discovered the >$350 price of undercut toolsets).
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2018-06-13 04:17
One of the significant factors of undercut toneholes is that they behave differently with changes of the fundamental harmonic and thus register, so enabling tuning variances between the registers to be improved.
Of course the old makers recognised this long before complicated mathematical / acoustic analysis and computer simulations became available.
Undercutting also allows the effect of enabling a smaller tonehole that can be physically covered by a human finger to act as an acoustically much larger tonehole.
etc etc
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-13 13:30
Undercutting holes is often used when note are not only out of tune but stuffy or dead sounding. The objective is to make EVERY note even and in tune.
Yes a mouthpiece can surely effect the tuning of a horn. I dislike small bores such as the Rico mouthpiece line. Other factors play into this, such as the Vandoren M series mouthpieces are way too longer in length so these tend to play flat. If the chamber/baffle are is too deep this too will effect the pitch, such as with the Zinner's. This is why so many notes on the Zinner's are dead and don't project.
Just the opposite can happen. So if a note pops out when playing and you can't control it special tape can be used to help even out the sound and match the other notes, pitch and sound. Placement of the tape is almost always facing the player, not towards the bell. This lowers the pitch, so this is why the tape doesn't face the bell. I'm old school and still use special tape that won't come off the horn.
As we all know the barrel of choice will surely effect the sound and the tuning. With R13's I've always favored reverse tapers of around 10 to 15 degrees with a large bore mouthpiece measuring 0.50" at the throat and about 0.590" 0.595" where the mouthpiece meets the barrel. Sometimes 0.585".
The Yamaha's I have are larger bores so I like the mouthpiece to be 0.555" and 0.595" with a 20 thousandths tapered barrel. The upper joint on the CSVR is .576" on the Bb. Buffets are about 0.585; depending on the horn and the year it was made. Quality control is horrible.
The idea is to match the end of the barrel bore to the upper joint bore. And match the bores of the mouthpiece to the upper barrel. No it doesn't always work perfectly but it's surely a guide to go by. So a good barrel maker and repairman has the reamers to do this.
This is one of the reasons why the Buffet S1 was so great. The upper register had a reverse taper and the bore was small. Made in the 1970's for just a few years, when Buffet decided to make large bores, getting away from their great 1960's horns. An S1 was a really wonderful instrument.
You asked a really good and complicated question requiring several answers.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2018-06-13 20:58
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> ...So if a note pops out when
> playing and you can't control it special tape can be used to
> help... <snip> I'm old school and still
> use special tape that won't come off the horn.
>
Bob, what kind of tape do you use?
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-20 09:51
Hello Karl! Great Question Hope I can answer it.
Hans Moennig used electrical tape, but a special brand by 3M when I played around at his shop. You've been there my friend I'm sure. But I did hear he switched to a different type of tape after I left in the late 1970's. I don't know what he switched to or if he actually did switch. Perhaps you know what he switched to? I personally still use 3M, because it's so thin. I use an exacto knife to cut it for procision on a large 3 foot glass. I don't do much repairs for people. But when I do it seems to remain in place forever. I clean the tone holes well with alcohol and a Q-tip before putting on the tape. There's so much oil on the holes and also dirt you may go through 3 or 4 Q-tips before it's clean.
Hans was very nice to me and made me some undercutting tools for those needed problematic holes which are always flat and dead sounding in the upper joint of the R13 horns. These and his pipe I won't ever sell. For those that don't know Hans He smoked a pipe and he gave me a pipe. Kind of a special gift.
Added - $350 is a pretty decent price for a set of these. I'm not sure how sharp they are or the type of metal, meaning you may have to sharpen them sometimes or every time you use them, but the cost is excellent. Some metals are so hard you won't ever have to sharpen them. A concern of course are burs and chips left on the tone holes. So be careful. Practice on a junk horn first. Go really slowly and easy. It's wise to have a dremal tool set on standby to smooth off any tiny nicks and chips.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2018-06-22 10:58
This is super interesting and very timely for me. My new Buffet Legendé (Bb) has a flat throat F, therefore C up to F (altissimo) are flat too. I had a little undercutting done to the LH index finger tone hole which helped, but doesn’t quite fix the problem. My repair guy wasn’t willing to undercut any more, so I’m not sure what the solution is now.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2018-06-22 11:12
I watched this video of Morrie Backun doing some of this kind of work with Ricardo Morales. I found it fascinating to watch and listen to the results. It's more about truing the bore and tone holes, but there's another one of him doing some undercutting that I can't find right at the moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weGxlC0YI2I
Anders
Post Edited (2018-06-22 14:22)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-06-22 20:07
From a little undercutting I did on a cheap instrument using a rotating too I learned that it does somehow improve the response of the twelfth, but what I still don't understand: How does it raise the pitch of the fundamental vs the twelfth?
To my understanding, it helps sharpening the throat tones without affecting the higher notes, however the C on Morrigan's Legende was sharpened too. Now, what if we increase the taper of the undercut portion?
I've another cheap instrument to try and have fun with modifying it, but I know undercutting must not be seen as an isolated measure in instrument tuning.
So the instrument techs who truly know how to improve tuning deserve a great deal of respect, and one day someone will pimp my Amatis
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2018-06-23 02:52
shmuelyosef wrote: "While I agree there are some clarinets that have poor intonation ... some early Leblancs come to mind"
Have early Leblancs stood out compared to other brands? While I agree intonation has improved over time (with the introduction of non-cylindrical bores) and I believe I have an enough number of intonation tests to support this belief, it would surprise me if Leblanc were worse than the rest of the French clarinet makers in the mid 1900s.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2018-06-23 06:56
Hi Johan, I haven't played any Leblancs. But most horns can use a bit of help at some point in their lives as wood reacts to moisture and dryness. So a repairman's best friend are sometimes reamers and other tools such as undercutting tools. Also when horns crack and depending how they are fixed such as a crack right through a tone hole it's often pinned and then the need to undercut the hole for tuning.
I surely don't think any horn is perfect. Almost all of them are wood so wood changes.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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