 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2018-01-11 23:03
I read about this mouthpiece from last summer's account of the ClarinetFest.
Has anyone tried or bought one yet?
I'm curious about folks' impressions.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2018-01-12 03:22
Klose, the Vandoren mouthpieces that end with a D (M30D, B40D, BD5D) can be played on French system clarinets, although they were designed for German clarinets. Pascual Martinez was playing on a M30D when VandorenTV interviewed him: https://youtu.be/Rpbo4G7F02g
They are supposed to give a more German sound
-- Ray Zhang
Post Edited (2018-01-12 05:40)
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-01-12 04:02
My wife, Dr Marie Ross, and I both own and play M30D, plus we have an M40D that we both like the sound of but don't use as the facing is a tad uncomfortable. They work fine on Buffet clarinets (as Ray tells us) though on some barrels my experience is that they don't go all the way in to the mouthpiece socket. Of course it's common to experience slight differences in socket size (a mouthpiece being too loose with one barrel, too tight with another etc) but I've never experienced it before to quite the extent as I do with my M30 (about 50% of barrels require a gap of about 1mm, converting a 66mm barrel into a 67mm etc).
Other than this (and despite this) they work fine- but it's worth noting the facings seem to bear no resemblance to the M30 and M40
I have no idea what the situation is like with the BD5 D
dn
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-12 04:16
Ray, see this and probably correct your post.
http://www.vandoren-en.com/file/194458/
Post Edited (2018-01-12 04:23)
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2018-01-12 05:38
Thanks for pointing it out Klose. I guess I should say it was designed for German clarinets but it works fine on French clarinets too. Sorry for the mistake.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-12 05:50
Ray, not really. If it is designed for German clarinets only. Due to the difference of tenon size, it CANNOT be used on French clarinets. However, for M30D and B40D, they have or had two versions of each mouthpiece, therefore they can be used on both systems (in Germany and Austria they sell the German tenon version). Not sure if BD5D is also this case.
Vandoren initially maybe never thought that people using French system clarinets would be interested in these mouthpieces but it looks like a lot of people believe that a French system clarinet with a so called German mouthpiece can produce the German clarinet sound, which is impossible anyway, therefore Vandoren took this as a great opportunity to also make French tenon versions of M30D and B40D for French clarinets. To me, if they just changed the tenon size of M30D (which is designed for German system), the intonation should be a problem. If they also changed the the bore etc. back to M30, then the only difference is the "Schnurrand" for string ligature. Of course, by using a string, the sound can also be more German.
Also, in the past, they clearly stated on their website that M30D and B40D can be used on both systems but now this is gone. I guess probably they now only have one version, which is for German clarinets. This makes sense as these mouthpieces are designed for German system players, like me, to get a taste of French mouthpiece sound. For French system players, you should just use standard version.
Post Edited (2018-01-12 10:30)
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2018-01-12 10:00
Wow I didn't know that Klose! Thanks for clarifying. I just know that so many people like Pascual Martinez play on it, so I made a false assumption.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-01-12 11:21
It doesn't really matter what they say on their website, there are plenty of fine players out there using M30D and B40D on boehm clarinets.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2018-01-12 12:25
Yes, the D-series can be played very well on boehm clarinets.
There have never been different tenon versions of the M30D and B40D.
Different tenon sizes were offered (still offered) for their German and Austrian mpcs: VD and VA range.
The M30D and B40D (and now BD5D) were basically designed for using French reeds on German clarinets which has become quite popular in Germany, Holland and so on. However, Vandoren was quite smart to make the tenon size not too big so that it still fits in a French barrel. To fit the wider German barrel thick soft cork is used. The tenon is about 1 mm longer to fit the German barrel. So that's why it sticks out a French barrel a bit. Not a big problem and if you have tuning issues you can shorten the mpc easlily.
The facings feel different and the mpc material seems also different compared to the normal French mpcs. The sound is not 'chocolate' imo but there are some overtones present that make these mpcs give their specific sound color.
I have used the B40D on Wurlitzer clarinets and on the moment I use a B40D on Boosey & Hawkes clarinets.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-12 12:33
Jeroen, when I said tenon difference I meant the size of tenon plus cork. Still, you cannot use the same mouthpiece on both systems without changing the cork. Furthermore, I also don't understand the purpose of doing this. Just to use the string ligature??? If the sound is what lots of players preferred, why Vandoren didn't release a new model??? Again, I still strongly believe the popularity of these mouthpieces among French system clarinet players is due to that some people just believe a so-called German mouthpiece can make their French system clarinets produce a German sound, and Vandoren uses this as a marketing strategy.
Post Edited (2018-01-12 12:45)
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-01-12 12:37
The facings are DIFFERENT from the French versions that'swhy, how many times do I have to explain this.....
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-12 12:43
donald,
Interesting, I am stupid here. if the facing is that different from M30 or B40, why Vandoren didn't just release two new models called Mxx and Bxx?
I admit due to the facing difference, these mouthpieces may produce a sound different from M30, B40. But if Vandoren should have just released two new models, called Mxx or Bxx, much less people would be interested in trying them or buying them.
So my opinion here is that try them but don't expect that it will give you a so called German sound... If it could, then I guess no player in the Netherlands would use the much expensive Reform-Böhm clarinets.
Post Edited (2018-01-12 13:02)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-12 13:11
Similar things also happened with Playeasy B and D series mouthpieces. Because B2 is so popular among French clarinet players, they also adapted it for German clarinets. And since some people also like to have a taste of German mouthpiece, they also adapted their D2 for French system clarinets. However, one mouthpiece still is not able to fit on both systems without changing the cork.
It is also hard to believe that one facing/bore design can make the intonation optimal on both systems considering the significant bore difference between these two systems.
Post Edited (2018-01-12 13:21)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2018-01-12 14:43
Klose wrote:
> Jeroen, when I said tenon difference I meant the size of tenon plus cork. Still, you cannot use the same mouthpiece on both systems without changing the cork.
Klose, not necessarily true: as I described you can use it on both systems without changing the cork. I have done this without any problems.
Post Edited (2018-01-12 15:04)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-12 17:15
"Klose, not necessarily true: as I described you can use it on both systems without changing the cork. I have done this without any problems."
Very interesting... I also own a M30D and both German (Dietz soloist) and French (RC prestige) clarinets. It fits RC prestige set well but for my Dietz set it is just too loose... You have a special barrel for your Wurlitzer? Your Wurlitzer is an Oehler or Reform Böhm? Which model of clarinets are you using???
Or maybe your D mouthpiece just by accident has a very "thick soft cork"? How about your other German or French mouthpieces?
In fact, for all my German mouthpieces, Wurlitzer, Playeasy, Maxton etc. and all my French mouthpieces, Vandoren, Playeasy, Leitner & Klaus etc. non of them can be used on both systems. Non of the German mouthpieces can be insert into French system barrels and all French system mouthpieces are too loose on German system barrels.
Furthermore, you can check the diameters regarding the difference of German and French barrels here:
http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/englisch/klarinetten_birnen.php
Post Edited (2018-01-12 17:53)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2018-01-12 19:02
Well, I can only speak from my own experience:
All the B40D and M30D mpcs that I have owned (about 3) fitted on my Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinets that normally take only wide tenon German mouthpieces. No 'conversion' barrel.
And they fit also into my English and French clarinets with small barrel sockets.
I can imagine the cork will shrink if you use them a lot on French clarinets or your Dietz clarinets may have little wider sockets than my Wurlitzers.
However, Vandoren's claim is clear: "3 mouthpieces which are designed for the German system to play with Boehm system reeds: M30D, B40D and BD5D". And I can subscribe this from my own experience.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-13 00:38
Quote:
I can imagine the cork will shrink if you use them a lot on French clarinets or your Dietz clarinets may have little wider sockets than my Wurlitzers.
No, all Wurlitzer German mouthpieces I have (WZ1, WZ2, Fo, M3, M3+, M3* etc.) all fit my Dietz set without any problem. How about you? Have you tried these common German mouthpieces on your Reform Böhm?
Quote:
However, Vandoren's claim is clear: "3 mouthpieces which are designed for the German system to play with Boehm system reeds: M30D, B40D and BD5D".
Yes, Vandoren's claim is very clear. They are designed for German system rather than Böhm system. Not sure what is the situation of Reform Böhm.
Post Edited (2018-01-13 00:55)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2018-01-13 11:54
Klose wrote:
> No, all Wurlitzer German mouthpieces I have (WZ1, WZ2, Fo, M3,
> M3+, M3* etc.) all fit my Dietz set without any problem. How
> about you? Have you tried these common German mouthpieces on
> your Reform Böhm?
Of course, I have used many German mpcs on the Reform Boehms (like WZ2, 3WZ, B4,C4,M3+ and Zinner M4, M5 etc.) without problems.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-13 12:42
And all your French mouthpieces can also be used on your Reform Böhm?
Anyway, as you said, these mouthpieces are designed for German system clarinets. Why would people assume they also work for French system clarinets? It is hard to believe Vandoren could design a single facing which is optimal for both systems.
Post Edited (2018-01-13 19:39)
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2018-01-13 20:56
"these mouthpieces are designed for German system clarinets. Why would people assume they also work for French system clarinets?"
Almost 2 years ago Paul Aviles started a thread ("The German Mouthpiece experiment"):
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=431617&t=431610
The discussion was about was some German mpcs (in this case, the Viotto N and N1+2) working on both French and German systems.
I can attest to this as I ordered these mpcs from Viotto through Bas de Jong. I was in discussion with Viotto (again through Bas de Jong) concerning some modifications, just before he died.
Simon
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-13 21:56
Quote:
The discussion was about was some German mpcs (in this case, the Viotto N and N1+2) working on both French and German systems.
I can attest to this as I ordered these mpcs from Viotto through Bas de Jong. I was in discussion with Viotto (again through Bas de Jong) concerning some modifications, just before he died.
Well, "some modifications" are indeed necessary. But some people believe one single mouthpiece can be used on both systems.
Also please note M30, B40, BD5 are all French mouthpieces. Vandoren modified them for German system instruments rather than originally designed for them.
Read the link again. Paul also clearly said that the Viotto is modified for Böhm and other people said the original Viotto does not fit Böhm horns.
Post Edited (2018-01-13 22:31)
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2018-01-14 05:31
I don't understand why there is an argument over this. Who really cares if it is supposed to work on the French system, German system, or both? If you play a French system clarinet and it works fine for you, go ahead and use it. There are a good amount of people that use the M30D, B40D, BD5D on the French clarinet and get good results. Such as Pascual Martinez of the NY Phil.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-14 05:50
Ray, you are right but then no body should ask any question regarding mouthpiece. Try it yourself is the always correct answer.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2018-01-15 00:28
Klose wrote:
> And all your French mouthpieces can also be used on your Reform Böhm?
Of course not. Please, read my posts more carefully. Anyway, it's clear you don't want to believe me. That's okay with me. As you say: Try it yourself is the always correct answer.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-01-15 02:30
Jeroen, please understand it's not my intention to argue with you. Of course, people should feel free to try themselves. However, probably this is something similar: Apple developed its Safari for Windows PC, to use this Windows version, some people install the Windows on their Mac and then download the Safari for Windows and say: you see, this version works fine on my Mac.
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