 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2017-12-29 01:21
I've had a look through various threads here, to get some tips and to see what glue I should use (I've used Copydex but it doesn't seem to last too well)
One glue that is recommended is EvoStik contact glue. Unfortunately there seems to be a few varieties (including Impact, which I guess bonds pretty instantly?)
Which EvoStik (or other glue) would anyone recommend to buy (preferably in the UK)?
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-12-29 04:40
I have for 25 plus years used Evostick contact for tenon corks.
The regular standard version (red box) on sale in any good UK hardware store (and possibly in not so good ones too).
This Evostick has never been quite so good since it was reformulated some years ago to remove the constituent that made it attractive to glue sniffers !! however it still seems to do a decent job if you coat both surfaces and leave for a few minutes before applying the cork to the tenon.
Yes it then bonds instantly, so make sure you get the cork alignment correct first time, however this is not really difficult to do.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-29 08:31
I'm missing something. What are you trying to glue? A pad cork? A cork that fell off of the horn?
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-12-29 08:32)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-12-29 09:51
I assume you mean key and tenon corks.
I also use contact glue. I've used Evostik for a long time but as Caroline mentions they changed the formula and I don't like it that much since then. It seems, for lack of a better way to explain, less sticky.
I then checked more than ten types and now use Bison. As far as I know it is available in the UK (someone from the UK recommended it to me).
The only one better I found (the best one I've used) was a no-name one made in China, with a smell so foul I would never use it.
If you use Evostik then Impact is the one you want. Though there's Bostik too which is the same AFAIK (Bostik makes Evostik).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2017-12-29 18:05
Read the same threads, got some Evo-Stik Impact through Amazon, and it works great.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-12-30 23:36
Evo-Stik is the adhesive used by the majority of repairers and manufacturers in the UK. Only use that for key corks and tenon corks as it's flexible and is applied very thinly.
B&H used it on everything - nearly all B&H clarinets and oboes I worked on with their original pads had them glued in with Evo-Stik, even on 1010 clarinets with Gordon Beeson pads, so they couldn't be adjusted if they weren't seating.
For pads (skin, leather and cork), use shellac as that will set hard and offer excellent support, yet adjustments can be made by melting it again should you need to. It can be dissolved in alcohol (meths or isopropyl) as well as acetone, but don't use acetone on plastic bodied instruments as it can melt them.
Use meths or isopropyl to degrease any areas where adhesive is to be applied to ensure it will bond, that's after removing all traces of the old adhesive. For keywork, you can use acetone to remove Evo-Stik from them if there are stubborn spots - you can apply a drop or two of acetone to old key corks or felts to let it soak into them and that will make them easier to remove.
Contact adhesives like Evo-Stik and similar work best where both surfaces are close fitting - the best kind of tenon slots are completely smooth and flat as that will have maximum contact with the tenon corks as opposed to grooved tenon slots where the tenon cork will only make contact with the peaks (even though the adhesive has coated everything). If you have grooved tenon slots, then you can either machine them flat or fill them in with filler (superglue and wood dust) and then machine them flat to provide maximum surface area and maximum contact with the underside of the strip of cork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-12-31 02:38
I have always used Weldwood Contact Cement (in the US). I thin it down with the Weldwood brand solvent. In a pinch I have used Barge cement and thinner (from JL Smith) but it does not spread as evenly as the Weldwood.
I have had no problems with the weldwood on grooved tenons. I just put down two coats of the thinned cement and AFAIK have never had a glue failure.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-12-31 06:04
I use Dap, Weldhood Company. Contact Cement. Be careful not to be confused with rubber cement. Totally different. I prefer to wear rubber gloves, because the stuff is hard to get off of your fingers, but if you do get it on your fingers nail polish remover works OK. Be sure to put the cement on a CLEAN joint and on the cork - both. Then wait about 10 minutes for the cement to dry. Don't put it on wet. If you do, use rubber bands and wait several hours. Also use a thin amount. If the glue is old and thick it is best to just buy a new bottle. In the USA most hardware stores have it such as Lowes and Home Depot for about $4.
I haven't tried the other brands mentioned above.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2017-12-31 20:39
Thanks for all the tips. I'll get some EvoStik and see how that goes. Copydex looked like it would work, but you only need to catch a dried bit of glue and it all starts to unravel
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-12-31 21:56
Copydex is only useful for paper or card - and it stinks of cat wee.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Peacock
Date: 2018-01-02 16:51
I do find myself wondering what on earth people did before evo-stik was invented (in 1938, according to the BBC). On some older instruments I have, it looks like some bits of cork were attached with a film of shellac. I can see that being effective on metal keys where you can start with a hot key so as to allow the shellac to be kept soft, permitting fine positional adjustments. But I can't imagine how that would work on re-corking wooden tenons, so something else must have been used back in the day - but what?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-02 18:33
Some makers still used shellac to stick key corks on until very recently. Some sax makers still used shellac for gluing on crook corks - Yamaha still did that until very recently until they switched to using sheet cork instead of tube cork.
Back in the dark ages before contact adhesives became popular, tenon corks were stuck onto the tenons with shellac, hence the deeply grooved tenons which gave shellac something to stick to as sticking hot shellac to cold wood isn't ideal in any way as it almost solidifies on contact.
There are two ways of fitting tenon corks with shellac - either use stick or flake shellac, apply it hot to the tenon slot and use a hot steel spatula to melt it into the grooves and also onto the tenon cork and wrap and stick down as you go, then finish the tenon cork once done.
Another way which will take a lifetime is to use liquid shellac (flake shellac dissolved in alcohol) and stick the tenon corks on with that, but it does mean wrapping the cork strip with string or tape and leaving it for a couple of days for the alcohol to evaporate so the tenon cork is securely attached and can be worked.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-01-03 08:22
>> what on earth people did before evo-stik was invented (in 1938, according to the BBC) <<
Did Evostik (or actually Bostik?) invent contact glue? Or do you use "Evostik" as a general name for contact glue, like some people say "Hoover" or how Americans use "Rubbermaid"?
For whoever mentioned waiting 10 minutes for the contact glue to dry, I know most companies say wait 5-10 minutes but I never have to do that. Usually it is 1-2 minutes and for small key corks it could be less than 30 seconds with no problems. If I had to wait 10 minutes that would seriously slow me down.
I know some of the popular contact glues in some countries are mostly sold in cans with a brush and not in a tube. I'm wondering if applying it with the brush, which makes it significantly thicker, causes it to dry so much slower. I prefer the tube and smear it very thin, never buy the can type.
Post Edited (2018-01-04 07:53)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MichaelW
Date: 2018-01-03 17:12
For tenon corks I use contact glue, brand name here in Germany „Pattex“, in the original „Classic“ formulation, a thick, pulpy liquid, spread out with a small spatula, not the non- dripping gel variety. For pads: shellac as repeatedly detailed in this forum. And for corks on metal keys for some time now I find cyanoacrylate „superglue“ the most convenient (I wonder why it hasn't been mentioned here).
Btw., I've never had problems with corks coming loose because of the old fashioned tenon grooves all of the older German clarinets have. The remaining surface seems, at least with Pattex, to be sufficient for good cohesion, of course after thoroughly degreasing it with acetone.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-03 18:18
Attachment: tenonslots.png (4k)
Grooved tenon slots may offer more surface area for the adhesive, but they offer absolute minimal contact with the cork strip.
See attached diagram.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MichaelW
Date: 2018-01-03 20:57
Attachment: tenon.jpg (96k)
With my old ones, the grooves are looking rather like this (foto). I suppose, the grooves originally were made to better hold threading, not cork.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-03 23:33
Those shallow grooves are much better compared to Buffet's deeply grooved/combed tenon slots as there's plenty of flatness there to give maximum contact with the cork strip.
Most Buffets I see have the tenon corks flapping at the edges as there's no adhesion beneath them and most can be removed with hardly any effort at all. The RC model has the combed/grooved tenon slots as in my previous diagram and the R13 has the wavy slots which I don't care for either.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-01-04 09:13
>> and the R13 has the wavy slots <<
Do you mean those large gradual deep waves that cause very little contact area? They are the worst but I've seen them only on older R13s and some others models (not only Buffet, some Selmers too).
Buffets seem to vary a lot which is pretty weird. The last one (R13) I remember had four very shallow and small square grooves, so there were three very large flat surface areas with four small gaps. Though the gaps aren't necessary at all with contact glue anyway, the best surface is just flat with a rough finish.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-04 16:35
From what I've seen, the R13 has the wavy slots and the RC has the combed/grooved slots. In either case it's best to machine them flat to provide a larger surface area for the cork to bond to.
Leblanc clarinets had some pretty dreadful tenon slots as well, so again best machining the grooves down to flat. Older Selmers have grooved slots, but the grooves are shallow and fine and easy to flatten out by scraping them down by hand if you want to do that.
Deep grooves are fine for pushing molten shellac into and then levelling off the top to stick cork to using a heated spatula, but that's fine if you like using methods from the dark ages. Only things have progressed since then, but some makers continue to stick to past form instead of moving with the times (which also includes fitting adjustable thumbrest bases in the fixed position because that's where the screw holes are still being drilled and that crappy springing of the F#/C# key).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-01-05 15:08
Regarding these tenon slots: On my 2013 RC, they look like Chris P described them. IMHO very annoying as it effectively reduces adhesion and I cannot see where's the benefit of that. In addition to that, Buffet uses some kind of cork tape that is firmly conjoined with its adhesive layer - no chance of peeling it off like double sided tape. It seems like parts of that adhesive push into the groves, and I find there's no way of imitating this characteristic.
I've been very pleased with double sided tape (3M for special applications) that far exceeds the properties of carpet tape (which sucks for clarinet repairs). Today I've glued one tenon cork and while making a very tight connection, it didn't push down or rotate on the tenon. However, the slots are very shallow on the clarinet I repaired.
The tenon corks did rotate a bit on my RC, but after some time, they somehow "set" and stopped moving since then. I cannot say whether the tape now adheres in the depth of the slots too, but it's sufficient either way. Next time, I'll use 2 layers and compress the strip while applying it to the tenon, so that the cork pushes into the groves.
I'm going to try Evostick too, which should arrive today.
Post Edited (2018-01-05 15:17)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-10 22:23
Yesterday I had an RC come in for a new tenon cork - this one is only a couple of years old at the most.
The tenon cork had come adrift due to using the cheap lipstick-style cork grease supplied with it, so I gave the owner a complimentary tub of La Tromba grease as that doesn't soak into the cork and destroy the adhesive.
But what I wasn't expecting was the tenon itself - Buffet have finally given up using grooved tenon slots on RCs and instead have a nice flat tenon slot for the cork to bond to with full contact. So well done Buffet for that.
The downside is they now fit an adjusting screw for the LH F/C linkage with the adjusting screw on the back of the RH F/C key - this has moved the contact point near to the key barrel of the LH F/C lever foot, so there's way too much travel in the LH F/C touchpiece. I know the gap between the linkage is usually too large, but it can be reduced with some bending of the F/C key and the LH F/C key will feel snappy, but the new one isn't really an improvement besides getting rid of any lost motion.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-01-11 02:26
Chris, that's great to hear! I don't really see the point of adding a screw for the LH F/C connection, too, though
Anyways, I've tried Evostick for both key and tenon corks. For tenons, it's great and easy to work with, giving me almost perfect results. There isn't really a difference in terms of adhesion to my tape method, but for me, it's a welcome addition.
Now what I didn't expect was that I can finally openly admit preferring hot melt glue for key corks. There was no way to get the same level of adhesion, even with carefully cleaned surfaces and glue-soaked corks with Evostick. For example, the RH Bb/Eb Key with its tendency to have the cork just fall off randomly (which happens to German system clarinets a lot, not only, because it's poorly attached, but also, because the key offers little surface area) is better serviced with hot glue! It seem much harder to manually pull the cork off, while with Evostick, even after letting it dry completely, it's easy to twist the cork and thus weaken the adhesive.
Rather than applying it with one of those cheap glue guns, I use a reflow station, which allows accurately spreading the glue on the keys and heating them to, faciliating a timely application of the cork, and I only need to hold in position for a few seconds until the glue has cooled down
Viscous CA is a viable option too, but it can be a bit more bothersome to clean, so I'm "sticking" with hot glue
Post Edited (2018-01-11 02:41)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-11 04:03
I used to use hot glue for key corks, but then changed to using Evo-Stik as that's what I used while at Howarth. Like with everything, the success is in the preparation, so degrease, degrease and degrease again.
What I like about Evo-Stik is after all the prep is done, I can set to work sticking all the key corks on. This is my method:
- Arrange the keys and other fittings in order of the various widths and thicknesses where the silencing material is to be glued to.
- Apply Evo-Stik to the pre-cut long strips and different thicknesses of silencing material (usually rubco, felt/ultrasude and natural cork) I'm going to use and put them aside to become touch dry.
- Apply Evo-Stik to the surface on the keys/fittings where the silencing materials are to be stuck to and work through the set in turn.
- Once that's done, start sticking and cutting off to length the silencing materials to the keys/fittings starting with the keys that have been glued up first.
- When you've finished sticking everything in place, trim and shape all the silencing materials using a fresh razor starting on the softest materials first to get a nice clean cut on them and then immediatedly move onto tougher materials thatcan be trimmed with a less than sharp blade. Then bin the razor as it's no use and use a fresh one and do the same again until all the keys and fittings are all done. I prefer to use a fresh razor on felt, ultrasuede and natural cork and then move onto trimming thin rubco (tech cork) with the blade just after that. I use double sided razor blades snapped in half to get two single sided blades from and they're cheap to buy in bulk.
The thing I don't like about using hot glue for key corks is you have to heat the keys up to do that (not good if there are pads in close proximity to where the key cork as to go), plus it doesn't always give a nice finish if it doesn't go on evenly or oozes out the sides and has to be cleaned up.
I'm in the process right now of servicing a Marigaux 2001 oboe and have all the keys and other pieces laid out in order to fit all new key corks. I only use rubco for under adjusting screws and natural cork for open standing keys on oboes. On clarinets I use rubco nearly everywnere, plus ultrasuede or felt for open standing keys to keep key noise down to a minimum and the only place I use natural cork is the wedge under the throat A touchpiece. I fit a domed nylon tip to the throat G# key as that's far better than anything else (likewise with the back 8ve key, 3rd 8ve key, LH1 fingerplate, D#-E mechanism on oboes and the bell vent and key on them if they have adjusting screws fitted).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-01-11 09:10
I know some people have success with Evostik even now with small key corks (probably by putting a slightly thicker layer), but I don't like it as much as before they changed the formula for very small key corks. So I wouldn't judge using contact glue for key corks based on that. That's why I've tried many brands before settling on a couple. I still use heat melting glue and super glue occasionally for some key corks, but prefer contact glue most of the time. Any of the many types of tape I've tried was disappointing, though this doesn't mean all of them are bad.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-01-11 11:23
Evostick isn't bad either, but for now I won't bother finding a better contact glue.
Chris, I think the workflow with contact glue should be smoother for a pro like you.
After some practice, I've learned to apply the correct amount of hot glue as the excess is indeed annoying to trim away, even with a fresh scalpel blade. Heating pads is no issue with a reflow station (I set the temp to 300°C max and use a ~1cm diamater nozzle) For the very smallest corks, I see no way to apply them without the contact glue drying prematurely.
I'm still in the process of figuring out why here in Germany, many people sneer at hot glue users, with the implication of this material being un-clarinet....ish, so glad to hear pros would use it too!
Same with other silencing materials than cork, especially rubco seems intriguing. I was actually impressed by the "synthetic cork" on my Buffet RC. Chris, where could one buy smaller sheets of this?
Clarnibass, have you already tried the 3M tape I mentioned once?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-11 21:41
I can't stand the stuff Buffet use on their clarinets, plus it's stuck on with double-sided tape and will slide off easily. I see far too many key 'corks' on Buffets coming adrift, so I replace them all as a matter of course (as well as respringing the F#/C# key).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-01-11 22:40
I've remounted many of them with hot glue and they're fine now, but why can't you stand the material? Is rubco very different from that?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-12 03:00
It's not a good material in that it compresses and doesn't recover so adjustments often go out and adhesives don't stick well to it - you can usually peel off the foam and the adhesive will still be in the key, but the underside of the foam will be clean.
Buffet used it everywhere in the '90s - all keys, all tenon corks, everywhere. It son proved to be useless for tenon corks as they either peeled off or became loose very quickly as it compressed and on keys it caused the thumb ring to stick to the LH1 ring key overlever and the LH F/C key to stick to the Rh F/C key overlever as well as the long Bb link sticking or going out of adjustment. They changed those linkages for rubco as that was more durable (the underlevers didn't wear through it to the adhesive) and went back to using natural cork on the tenons.
The more recent version are white pre-cut shapes which are used across the entire range from the B12/Prodige right up to the Tosca, Divine and Legende - fine for entry level clarinets, but the top models costing several thousand ought to use silencing materials reflecting their near pro level oboe pricetags.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-01-12 03:44
Now I'm really intrigued - could it be that what you refer as "rubco" is sold as rubber cork by Music Center?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-01-12 04:12
Yeah - same stuff as Gummi-Kork. For sliding linkages (such as the thumb ring-LH1 ring key link), coat it with graphite using a soft pencil to make it slippery.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2018-01-12 08:33
>> Evostick isn't bad either <<
No, it's pretty good still. Though if you could easily move/slide it to the side after completely drying then something sounds wrong. Maybe you put a layer that was too thick?
>> but why can't you stand the material? <<
Not only the they move or fall out often (as Chris mentioned, often with the glue still on the key itself), it is a spongy material, but very thick on some keys (e.g. trill keys) so the feel is terrible.
I'm not sure what you compared it with, but I also don't use real cork anywhere except tenon corks. I also almost stopped using a different type of synthetic cork that is much better than what Buffet is using (the Kraus black material). I'd rather use real cork than what Buffet uses... and I really don't like real cork for keys.
>> Clarnibass, have you already tried the 3M tape I mentioned once? <<
I don't think so, but a while ago I did contact 3M and got the "thinnest and strongest" double sided tape they had for some other purpose. For clarinets it was very noticeably worse than all options I use now.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2018-01-12 15:28
It's amazing what one can learn from you guys!
On the Uebel superior, it looks like they used rubco in 2-3 places and it looks like it hardly compresses, unlike cork or this Buffet synthetic material. On the thumb-ring key link in particula, it seems to glide much better. I really need to get some of this stuff now... The Gummikork for Oldtimers sold on ebay looks pretty much identical.
Post Edited (2018-01-12 15:36)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2018-02-05 13:10
This looks like the proper stuff, not the water soluble type
https://www.screwfix.com/p/evo-stik-impact-adhesive-off-white-to-amber-250ml/38770
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TomS
Date: 2018-02-05 18:51
I've had a new R13/greenline for 10 months and have had the corks tear and/or come off every joint. It looks like Buffet uses just plain old "rubber cement" ... you can peel it off by rubbing with your finger ... I still have several "factory defects" that I need to get fixed ... if I could get a Yamaha CSVR in a non-wood version ... Wow, that would be cat's meow!
Tom
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2018-02-05 20:37
Yamaha should offer the Duet+ option on their pro level clarinets instead of just the 400 series. They do on their oboes (400 series with cast bore and integrally cast tonehole bushes and 800 series with an ebonite bore lining and inset tonehole bushes), so no reason why their Custom series clarinets can't have an ebonite sleeved top joint bore with plastic tonehole bushings rather than going for a fully synthetic top joint.
I can't put a number on how many Buffet clarinets I've worked on where the tenon corks peeled off in a single piece leaving a nearly clean tenon slot. I've also had ones stored in those double cases where the bells were never removed and the cork fused to the bell sockets, but the glue had failed in the tenon slots so the bells would rotate but couldn't be removed.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
