 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-09-14 17:02
"Copper keys coated with nickel." You think they're soft?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-09-14 17:14
No no, it's good. It says clearly "HIGH QUALITY BAKELITE TO ENHANCE DURABILITY: The body of this clarinet is made of bakelite, which is highly regarded for its robust quality. No need to worry about crack even under frequent use."
So are you adding it to the CSO list?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: GBK
Date: 2017-09-14 17:19
Tobin wrote:
> So are you adding it to the CSO list?
Already done.
...GBK
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-09-14 17:26
It would be a great photo/video prop. Take it anywhere, do anything to it, you can't hurt it.
I still have a $20 Helmke I bought on that auction site some years ago, and I've considered using it for some underwater "clarinet playing" photos. And I don't have the heart- it plays sort of OK and after that it probably wouldn't. Well, if I let it dry out enough maybe it would return to its current condition.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-09-14 17:28
...or for practical jokes. Why not smash one onstage after a gig? Just be sure you know which horn you've got ahold of. Would the Bakelite put up a fight?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2017-09-14 17:29)
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2017-09-14 18:11
I note that the items in the case include gloves. Good idea- I wouldn't want to touch that thing with my bare hands!
Jerry
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-09-14 18:57
Wow that a good price for a hard case... and it even comes with a free clarinet!
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-09-14 20:14
I think it must be a scam. When I click the link the price is $26.28. Talk about bait and switch. I was looking for a real Febos! This is probably a knock off.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-14 20:51
Let's tear this apart bit by bit:
Febos FCL-B53 Bb Flat Clarinet Black
Black Bakelite Clarinet with grain surface.
Key: BB. Key design: 17 nickel plated straight keys.
High-quality pads. Package includes a soft case, gloves, cleaning cloth and cork grease.
Febos clarinets are the perfect instrument for the student musician. This clarinet features in high quality body with durable nickel plated in-line trill keys and adjustable thumb rest. Every clarinet is detected by clarinet technicians to ensure that their high quality standards are met.
Clarinet Size: 26.4 x 3.14 x 3.14 inch
Outstanding Bore
Equipped with a quality bore that made of high-density durable plastic and well provides protection for the reed. Made in specific length and diameter with specific density, came through precise calculating and testing procedures, the bore helps enhance the sound quality and playability of the clarinet. You can easily produce rich bright sound with little breath when blowing.
Well-designed Key System
Technically designed with nickel-plated straights with adjustable thumb rest and leatherette pads. The whole key system is equipped with specific calculating and professional producing skills.
Made of high-grade materials and carefully polished to ensure great touching feelings. Looks well-constructed and exquisite in appearance.
Excellent Mouthpiece
Clarinet mouthpiece is made of quality materials that guarantee durability and great blowing experience.
Designed in specific length and diameter, which help enrich sound quality and effects. Also came through strict testing procedures in factory. Even kids players can easily blow out rich and loud sounds when starting learning.
High-quality Soft Case
A durable soft case is freely provided for you to store or carry your clarinet and accessories. The soft case is specially designed with foam inside for added protection, and with inner separate compartments for storing different parts of the disassembled clarinet. Also has a compartment outside for storing accessories.
... and GO!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2017-09-14 21:17
The price has now magically changed twice - from the original $25.03 ... to $26.28 ... to now $29.03.
I now wonder if the price is related to the number of clicks/views.
Unfortunately, with school starting there will be numerous parents purchasing these under $100 clarinets.
...GBK
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-09-14 23:26
Great, so smashing one of these will create a hazardous waste incident, probably a violation of federal law. ("So, what are you in for... robbery? extortion?" --- "I smashed a clarinet that released toxic dust.")
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-09-15 01:21
Bakelite clarinet antidote is $1000 on Amazon.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-15 01:39
It's a good way to gauge the exchange rate if anything.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-09-15 08:49
Funny, but from this I am convinced that most Buffet clarinets are extremely over-priced, seriously.
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2017-09-15 13:31
In The Netherlands the Febo (plural Febo's) is a chain of snack shops, where you can buy your burger, french fries or whatever by putting money in a slot, which allows you to open a small hatch in the wall so you can take the food of your choice.
The snacks sold are not my first choice, but the bakelite option somehow opens up new perspectives.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-09-15 16:25
Luuk- sounds like the old automats they used to have in NY
Maybe the company will start to sell clarinets in those machines
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-15 18:10
I'm surprised there aren't vending machines selling clarinets, so there's an opportunity!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-09-16 00:00
Folks,
If you go to that auction site, Bakelite clarinet and saxophone mouthpieces are available.
They come from only one country in the Far East.
Wanna put one of those into your mouth?
Unfortunately, they are so incredibly cheap that I'm afraid someone with no knowledge of the dangers of Bakelite will actually buy them and use them.
Scary...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-16 00:13
Yamaha's standard grade clarinet and sax mouthpieces (4C etc.) are made from Bakelite (phenol resin), but I suspect the CSOs are made from another form of composite.
The brightly coloured ones are made from very low quality, low density ABS resin and most of the black ones are made from ebonite/hard rubber or a poor quality Greenline-type composite (if that's possible) - whether or not the ebonite they use contains lead remains to be seen.
A lot of domestic electrical fittings are still made of Bakelite, such as plugs, wall sockets, light switches, light fittings and the insulating parts within them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-09-16 03:26
I believe "Bakelite" is just a translation error.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-16 07:11
Does the mouthpiece have some sort of special baffle to allow kids to play loud. This I'm "Baffled," about. I can't believe I just wrote this.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-09-16 08:05
Greetings:
What follow is, unfortunately, a rather long history post about Bakelite.
Leo Baekeland made the first known early plastic in 1907 and called it Bakelite. A Google search came up with Bakelite being defined as a brittle plastic made from formaldehyde and phenol used chiefly for electrical equipment.
Now, (IMO), here is where it starts to get a bit complicated. In the original formulation which was to become Bakelite, various “fillers” were tried and asbestos was found to give Leo Baekeland the results he desired.
Over many decades, it was determined that asbestos was indeed a toxic ingredient with many scientists claiming “there is no safe level of asbestos”. It is now banned in 55 countries but NOT in the U.S. , China, Russia, India, and Canada which is proposing a total ban in 2018. It is banned in Japan, however, when no available substitute can be found, they resort to using it. The U.S. has tried at least twice through the EPA to ban this substance but were defeated by industrial lobbyists in court. Its use here has declined considerably, however, it is “still legal”.
So, IMO, when a country like China manufactures a Bakelite clarinet or mouthpiece, there is nothing in my research that indicates that they are not using it in their formulation. As a matter of fact, China completely ignores the WHO warnings as to how deadly it is http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/china-ignores-who-warnings-in-asbestos-boom/news-story/e50822ffb53cb79df85badffde13ca2c and faces an epidemic of cancer. https://www.icij.org/project/dangers-dust/top-asbestos-user-china-faces-epidemic-cancer
Now, as to the Yamaha plastic 4C clarinet mouthpiece. All the ads I’ve seen say it is made from “phenol resin”. “Phenol resin”, IMO, actually refers to “Phenol formaldehyde resins”. Formaldehyde is a part of the formulation, however, the molar ratio is less than one. So the Yamaha 4C appears to have an extremely miniscule amount of formaldehyde but no evidence of asbestos that I could find. Yamaha may simply have found a better “filler” material.
As many of you probably already know, many toddler toys from China were recalled due to the high levels of lead in the toys. These were toys that toddlers basically put into their mouths while playing. IMHO, it’s “Buyer Beware” when buying anything made in China.
I apologize for the long post. Hopefully it was interesting. Corrections invited.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-16 10:00
I was actually gonna comment on Bakelite being toxic, but I'm already on the warpath with Rico using needless PESTICIDES on reeds, so I decided not to say anything. But since the subject has been brought up it is very toxic. More so in the molding form or in the form of when it is being cut and or heated. Once it has cooled down and is more stable it is not as toxic, but I wouldn't want to put a mouthpiece in my mouth made of this.
I was not aware of Yamaha mouthpieces being made of this. They were safe when Babbitt made them. But I'm not sure when Babbitt stopped making them. It's been several years. Companies need to take responsibilities for their actions and pay for the high cost lawsuits and medical needs resulting from people becoming sick and worse death. Instead often they file for bankruptcy. We have to remember that when you reface a mouthpiece made of this material is becomes very toxic. the dust is air born and the dust will get on your hands and on the reeds, and of course in your mouth. It won't be digested very well. Same with fixing the horns, tuning them, replacing the joint corks, undercutting tone holes, it can be a mess.
What a shame...
DAN, good call!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-09-16 11:16
Thanks Bob, you mentioned things which I had read about concerning which stages the asbestos is most dangerous but I didn't include them in my post.
Let us now look at two new student clarinets. The Yamaha 255 and its brick and mortar twin, if I recall correctly, are made entirely in China.
The Buffet Premier and the Prodige are molded in France and then sent to Germany where they are drilled with precision. After the drilling, they are then sent to China where the padded keys are installed. China has nothing to do with the basic mold. Dave Kessler told me all of this.
Personally, and I speak for myself only, I believe that was a very smart decision on the part of Buffet. My gut tells me there is no lead or asbestos in the molded bell, the lower and upper sections nor in the barrel.
All of my research has certainly had an effect upon me. And, how is that? I'm going to be more diligent in finding out where something was made; be it a clarinet, a mouthpiece, a reed, etc.
Pretty much everyone knows this BB has a CSO list. This list contains clarinets made primarily in China which are of questionable value.
I think we need an MSO list as well. MSO would stand for Mouthpiece Shaped Object. I sense the Rico Graftonite mpc would probably be at the top of the list. I believe we should also add Bakelite mouthpieces made in China to this new list.
Just a thought...and my opinions.
Corrections welcomed.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-09-16 15:21
Just because the Yamaha clarinet is made in China would not mean that it is in any way the same or even related to the junk out there. I think it is wrong to assume any connection. I am sure that Yamaha makes instruments to their design, specs and materials.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-16 18:24
Companies like Yamaha and Schreiber/Buffet may have factories and facilities in China, but they do have to maintain their reputation and have quality control in place. This is what sets them apart from Chinese companies making knock-offs by the millions and with any name anyone wants laser etched onto them (even Yamaha and Buffet counterfeits).
As far as the injection moulded joints for Buffet B12/Prodige and their predecessors (Evette, etc.), they were originally made in Germany and not France. I'd have thought it wouldn't be cost effective to injection mould joints in Europe to ship to China to then finish and send back - that's most likely done under one roof over in China to keep the costs competitive.
There was a programme shown a few years back where some UK companies had moved their production to China due to the lower production costs, only to then find the Chinese companies and especially their workforce are now expecting better pay, so the large factories producing goods gradually reduced their workers as wages went up as did shipping costs. Ultimately that meant it was no longer cost effective and production then returned to the UK.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-09-17 01:51
I don't think the location of manufacture is that important nowadays. Canada is not a traditional manufacture country but Backun seems to have a good reputation. Furthermore, I believe the special situation in clarinet market also is a reason for these cheap products. Some Chinese violin makers have made their reputation in the world therefore I tend to believe they also have ability to make good woodwind instruments. However, as most people consider Buffet is the only option, even brands like Selmer and YAMAHA are struggling to get a small portion of market, let alone the potential Chinese brands.
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Author: CapnCheapo
Date: 2017-09-17 01:58
Attachment: IMG_6791.JPG (1519k)
I ordered it back when it was $26 just for fun. It came today. Besides a sharp throat Bb and a case that doesn't look at all like the one in the ad, it plays fine. Seals great. Keywork, is of course, low-end in feel but doesn't seem to bend easily... I'd play it as a backup to my backup if needed! The attached picture shows the first time a Kaspar mouthpiece has ever interfaced with a Febos clarinet ;-)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-09-17 02:02
CapnCheapo, thank you for your picture. Interesting! We all know brand new Buffet clarinets, even top professional models, usually have a lot of leaking problems. Similarly, Tosca, Divine etc. also have sharp throat notes problems.
Post Edited (2017-09-17 03:35)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-09-17 03:06
it is now 5:03pm MST and the price is $47.35. So the price went up around 22 in just two days. I don't understand what is causing the price to keep going up...Is this typical for Amazon?
Thanks CapnCheapo for the review. Would you recommend it to a middle school student?
Perhaps this one should be taken off the CSO list...
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-09-17 03:31
I think this instrument is good for people who just would like to know how playing clarinet feels. As a clarinet player, I hope I can find an oboe which is this cheap.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-09-17 13:49
Amazon is a sneaky company. A few days ago I got a letter to renew my credit card for $125. At first I thought it was a bill for something I bought. I them called them asking about the credit card fees. The card is from CHASE BANK. In short I told them I did not want their card at any cost. Wow what a ripoff. Amazon is out of control. You can now buy water, fruit, veggies, anything you want from them. The owner just past Bill Gates as the richest man in the world. So if he see a clarinet selling for $20 and a few people buy it, he will surely triple the price the next day if it is selling. Just a few years ago all Amazon did was sell books. Most likely he will get into auto sales, home sales, everything. There's no stopping him. Airline reservations, the works.
I guess since I don't owe anything on the card they aren't making money on INTEREST at probably 20 plus percent. So if I wasn't careful I would have paid the $125 thinking that I had bought something. Jerks... $125 for a piece of wasted plastic.
Amazon is a total ripoff. Chase Bank is also very corrupt. They are also the cause of putting a lot of businesses out of business, such as Sears, and many other companies. I really like Craftsman tools, their lifetime warranty, but China bought them out so now it's Craps-man tools, a real shame.
Be very careful with Amazon and Chase Bank. I refuse to do business with them anymore. EVER!!!
China is also building up Vietnam and setting up factories there to keep their costs low. Don't be surprised if horns are assembled in Vietnam. Some of the parts are made there. It can still say Made in China.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: CapnCheapo
Date: 2017-09-17 17:34
Dan,
It's quite possible my getting one that plays right out of the box was the exception rather than the rule. I also have no idea whether or not it will maintain this level of adjustment over time. I can certainly add it to my practice routine and see how it holds up.
It may also be a good horn to experiment with things like repadding.
Strictly a novelty item at this point though...
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2017-09-19 05:44
$61.10 as of 9:42pm EST on 9/18. Climb away, price!
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-09-19 10:35
$62.32 as of 12:35am MST on 9/19. So it went up $1.22 in just under 6 hours. I wish my savings account went up this fast! I have never seen or heard of anything like this before.
Post Edited (2017-09-19 11:24)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-19 18:10
That's inflation gone into overdrive.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2017-09-20 13:25
The price may be going up because of pageviews we (the Klarinet members) are generating by this thread. Our activity implies there is substantial and growing market for this product.
This is standard webshop policy.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: GBK
Date: 2017-09-23 20:20
Just in case anyone still cares. the original $25 Febos clarinet has now practically tripled in price in 9 days
...GBK
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-09-25 03:20
On 25/9/2017 it stands at $72.29.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2017-10-07 07:02
Update -
The Febos clarinet has now been pulled from Amazon, probably because it was constructed of Bakelite.
...GBK
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-10-07 19:40
I am sure there are countless instruments from those same factories that are the same.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-10-07 22:50
GBK & Ed,
I believe they simply sold out of the Febos.
I did a quick search on that sales site and came up with:
26 different Bakelite clarinets
2 different Bakelite barrels
2 Bakelite mpc covers (one for clarinet and the other for sax)
And, drum roll please...,
a Bakelite Safety Shaving Razor
Bakelite & Safety (Hmm, I sense an oxymoron model name)
Oh, I forgot to check in with that well known auction site!
I found:
18 Bakelite clarinet mouthpieces
35 Bakelite saxophone mouthpieces (Oh, man, ya gotta love those colors!
All I can say is: BUYER BEWARE!
Post Edited (2017-10-07 23:03)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-10-08 02:51
Bakelite is phenolic resin. Yamaha's standard level clarinet and sax mouthpieces are still made from that as were their older plastic piccolos and clarinets before they switched to using ABS resin.
Likewise with older Bundys, Vitos and B&H Regent clarinets and I'm sure many more plastic clarinets, oboes, piccolos and bassoons offered by other companies were also made from Bakelite before ABS was used. The old Dolmetch Dolomite recorders were also made from Bakelite.
I see there are concerns with PVC as well - I don't now if it's a load of gossip, but there has been talk of PVC being carcinogenic.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-10-08 04:10
Chris P,
I'm pretty sure you've mentioned this before. However, in all of my research, I cannot find anything which specifically states that Bakelite is phenolic resin. (Maybe it's interpreted indirectly, however, chemistry was not my best subject in H.S.)
From the following BB thread, it appears that others also believed that older "plastic" clarinets were made of Bakelite.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=415817&t=415749
When I looked up "phenolic resin and asbestos" using a general Google search I got the following:
"Prior to the mid 1980s, a large percentage of phenolic plastic molding compounds contained asbestos. Asbestos is known to cause mesothelioma, lung cancer and other asbestos-related diseases. Phenolic plastic (phenol-aldehyde resin) is considered to be the foundation of the plastic molding industry."
This following thread almost makes "molded asbestos" sound basically safe (IMO) because the plastic prevents the asbestos from becoming airborne.
https://www.asbestos.com/products/general/plastics.php
However, when the older phenolic resin (pre-1980) is drilled, sanded, or broken, asbestos dust can be released.
Reso-Tone and Resonite are not actual names of plastic. I could not find any specific chemical formulations. However, if they are older than 1980, from what I know now, I would personally stay away from them. Especially older plastic mouthpieces. They can be refaced, however, specific techniques are required to prevent dust from spewing into the air.
The 1980 U.S. law severely limiting the use of asbestos is strictly for the U.S. China, IMO, operates under its own rules and regulations. They are, of course, not subject to our manufacturing laws.
All items listed as being made from Bakelite on Amazon or that well know auction site list China specifically as the manufacturing point of origination.
This has been an enlightening thread for me. From what I've learned, I wouldn't buy anything specifically listed as being made from Bakelite coming from that country in the Far East...and...I think I've lost interested in any plastic clarinet made here in the U.S. prior to 1980. These are just my opinions.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-10-08 05:31
You'll find plenty of Bakelite objects still in current use, mainly as electrical insulation and domestic electrical fittings.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-10-08 05:52
Chris P,
I remember you saying from another post that the Yamaha "plastic" 4C clarinet mouthpiece was made of phenol resin and, from above, that phenolic resin was Bakelite.
So, are you trying to say that the current Yamaha "plastic" student clarinet mouthpieces are basically Bakelite?
I'm a bit confused and I'm just trying to understand better.
Thanks
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-10-08 21:17
Attachment: Image (4).jpg (238k)
Attachment: Image (3).jpg (64k)
This is what it says in two of Yamaha's clarinet catalogues (see attachments).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-10-08 23:00
Yes, I have seen for myself an ad for Yamaha's plastic 4C clarinet mouthpiece and the material mentioned was indeed "phenol resin".
What I'm trying to straighten out is your claim from 5 posts above wherein you stated "Bakelite is phenolic resin."
When I Goggled phenol resin, I got the following from Wikipedia: "Phenol formaldehyde resins (PF) or phenolic resins are synthetic polymers obtained by the reaction of phenol or substituted phenol with formaldehyde. Used as the basis for Bakelite, PFs were the first commercial synthetic resins (plastics)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenol_formaldehyde_resin
So...is it fair to say that the Yamaha "plastic" 4C student clarinet mouthpiece is made of Bakelite since phenol resin is used as the basis of Bakelite?
Post Edited (2017-10-08 23:25)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-10-11 19:04
If Bakelite isn't phenolic resin (and vice versa), then what else can it be?
It's been used in the woodwind industry for decades - not so much now since the introduction of lower density plastics like ABS resin, but it's still being used.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2017-10-11 19:07)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-10-11 20:30
Phenolic resin is a component of Bakelite, but it is not on its own Bakelite. Bakelite is made by the addition of fillers to phenolic resin to make a hard mouldable plastic. Unfortunately the filler used is powdered asbestos, although other fillers were sometimes used. As long as the asbestos particles are encapsulated within the resin they are not harmful, but in the event of chipping or breakage they can become airborne. During WW2 when asbestos was not always freely available in Britain wood dust was sometimes used as filler.
Tony F.
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Author: gregbaker112@gmail.com
Date: 2017-10-15 23:54
Specifically which part of it is a choking hazzard? Or is someone putting a little too much mouthpiece in their mouth?? 🤣
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The Clarinet Pages
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