 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dabaka11
Date: 2017-08-23 03:45
After some trying and searching, I've finally bought a Yamaha CSGIII. It seems to be a great horn, altough it will be the time that decides. I'm still getting used to the slightly different style (it's hybrid: boehm system but German(ish) bore).
The instrument itself intonates pretty well, although I have a few problems. The C5 note is very sharp. Can it be corrected somehow? I tried it with my previous clarinet, an E11 and the intonation is fine there.
My other problem is that the E4, F4 and F#4 notes are, somehow unstable. As if there was some fluid somewhere, but actually there isn't. This latter is not a great problem, the notes are pretty nice and well intonated, also I do not really think it can be really heard from a few metres, but still bothers me. I may go back to the shop with it.
As I mentioned, the horn is relatively new (less than 2 months old), I still only play 15-20 minutes a day, no more.
It might be my mouthpiece, although on the E11 it's fine. I play a Kückmeyer Solist M.
Otherwise I love the Yamaha - I still can't believe I have one :D
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-08-23 04:05
I don't have any experience with German bore instruments but there's not a whole lot you can do to lower C5, at least on French bore instruments. Typically, you can tape the tone hole but in this case it will lower the already flat low F. You can a tech mess with the pad height if it's too open, but that's about it. You may also be able to find a different barrel that will make the 12ths closer.
When you say unstable, do you mean likely to squeak or hard to keep steady? Have you checked it for leaks?
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-08-23 04:20
Actually it is preferable to have C5 in tune and F3 flat. If the problem persists have a tech fill in the lowest tonehole. A flat low F isn't ideal but it's better than a sharp C.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-08-23 04:27
It depends on what type of playing you do and who you play with. If you are playing by yourself, it's fine to have a flat low F. However, if you are playing in an ensemble, it's better to lip down sharp notes vs lipping up flat notes. You can bend things quite far down but there is a firm limit to how far you can lip something up.
It also depends on how sharp C5 is. If it's within 10 cents, I wouldn't touch it. If it's more, you may be able to find a compromise.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2017-08-23 04:30
The intonation issue may be you. When you are really used to playing one clarinet and have managed to get it to play in tune, you've often learned to voice of otherwise manipulate some notes that were problematic originally. With a new clarinet you are likely subconsciously still correcting for tendencies that don't exist to the same degree on the new instrument. It takes some time and practice to become fully aware of this. If the surrounding notes are well in tune play slowly from them to the problematic one, checking carefully for any changes in air, voicing, or embouchure that you may be making without being aware of it.
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Author: Dabaka11
Date: 2017-08-23 04:51
Thank you for the responses!
This "unstableness" is more like as if something was in the hole. A very subtle and mild fluttering, especially when changing from another, usually adjacent note.
No squeaking, fortunately.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-08-23 04:59
Could it be a sympathetic vibration? Sometimes the right hand trill keys will vibrate against each other. If not, is there buzziness about it? Have you tried checking it for suction?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-08-23 07:22
Did you buy it new? W@hat barrel are you using? The tuning issues could be solved by a different barrel and Yamaha has different sizes and tapers. I'm wondering if your barrel has a taper at all? The horns I've played on have tuned well. Yes it could be the mouthpiece bore.
It's a very good horn and worth looking into fixing the tuning.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2017-08-23 10:51
First thing I would do would be making a try with another kind of mouthpiece. My German Solist M is very airy (or hissing, if that's what you mean with unstable) on certain notes on a Reform Boehm instrument, while other mouthpieces are perfectly clear. Also intonation gets tricky compared to some other mouthpieces.
Post Edited (2017-08-23 11:02)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-08-23 18:11
Hi Dabaka11,
Lack of familiarity with this model has resulted in the most likely issue from coming to light: You're intentionally or inadvertently pushing the Low E/F correction (thumb) key OR the mechanism is out of adjustment.
The Low E/F correction key raises the pitch of the low E/F (and F# a tiny bit)...but the resulting note can be fuzzy/breathy/airy even when well regulated. You are correct that you, as the player, will notice this issue more than the audience -- although it can be noticed.
The venting hole itself should have a paper "W" inside. If it doesn't -- or if it's damaged, that could be the issue.
If you push the Low E/F correction key while playing C5 -- it will make the note significantly sharper.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2017-08-23 18:17)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-08-23 18:18
HAH -- my apologies.
I might still be correct about the reason your C5 is sharp. But my points about the Low E/F key are otherwise incorrect -- because E/F/F#4 is in the staff. I misread it thinking of E/F/F# 3.
Coming from Buffet to Yamaha: I found my approach resulting in these notes being pretty flat initially. As I adjusted to the Yamaha this issue disappeared. Maybe you are experiencing a similar adjustment, learning to play as the Yamaha wants and not like an E11?
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2017-08-23 18:21)
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Author: Jordan Selburn
Date: 2017-08-23 18:33
James has likely identified the problem. When you tune the instrument (*without* using the low E/F correction key), C5 should be pretty spot on. The low E/F correction key should only be used, naturally, on those notes; I've found that it brings up the low F by ~20 cents, putting it right in tune. This can be an issue, though, playing in unison with colleagues who are well under pitch!
On the low E, it does de-focus the sound a bit, and as that note isn't quite as low I tend to not use the correction key.
As a general note, I've found the Yamaha barrels a bit too short (designed for 442, perhaps?), and am using some slightly longer ones from Clark Fobes (bore might be different as well, of course). I still pull out a bit both at the middle joint and the barrel.
On my CSG II, the main pitch issue is E4, which is quite flat. Oddly, B5 is a few cents low as well so there's some room to adjust the horn itself. The next time Wolfgang Lohff is in town, I might ask him to (very, very gently) adjust the appropriate tonehole.
Jordan
Post Edited (2017-08-23 18:54)
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Author: Dabaka11
Date: 2017-08-24 01:07
The funy thing is that firstly my model doesn't have the correction key, so I can't press it
Secondly, I live in Hungary, we tune to 442, and it is sharp even to this tuning.
But actually, since the instrument itself is relatively well tuned, I suppose the reason behind the sharp note is what Tobin mentioned: I'm still playing it as I play the E11 and not the Yamaha. When I played today, the sharpness was not a problem at all.
But since I'm still in the "break-in" phase, I practice, and we'll see after a few weeks. The guarantee is valid, so I can go back anytime (and I might, because I need some minor adjustments).
Thank you for all the very nice replies! It is great to have such a good forum for clarinetists.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2017-08-24 03:23
Forgive me please for off topic. I'm imagining being in a solo concert setting (even worse a duet with cello) and holding a very long low F that is miserably flat. And the person next to me is nudging and whispering, "Push your correction key!". And I'm feeling all around for it, but of course it is not there. The stuff of nightmares.
Seriously, what if you routinely play on clarinets with and without such a key? Or with or without forked G#? I know some of you adjust automatically and perfectly. Good for you.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-08-24 06:00
If it doesn't have a correction key, how is it a CSGIII?
Nevermind -- it's an option. I've never seen one without!
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2017-08-24 06:03)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-08-24 10:49
While I rarely play low Fs with anyone else, my Buffet R13 is fine with that note. Not all regular clarinets are flat on low F and E and would not need a correction key.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-08-24 14:43
Though that may be the case -- the R13 is designed to be flat on E/F3 so that B/C5 are "in tune". That yours doesn't play as designed is an exception that can't be depended on in other R13's.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-08-24 21:45
Wes,
"Not all regular clarinets are flat on low F and E and would not need a correction key."
True, but only because the problem has been moved to the other end of the instrument, typically E4-G4 and A5-C6.
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