 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fsb2017
Date: 2017-08-20 21:38
I'm buying for my 5th grade daughter -- $499 for the Jupiter JCL710, and $515 for the Yamaha YCL255. From the information I can find online both seem like good choices -- but does the Yamaha have better resale value? I would think Yamaha is better known than Jupiter, especially when selling to people new to clarinets (the likely market for these models).
My daughter will have the choice to switch to saxophone in a year or two (they start anyone who wants to play sax on the clarinet at her school), so it is possible this instrument will be resold in 2 years.
Thanks in advance for any advice!
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-08-20 22:28
Or she can use it for marching season if she sticks with clarinet and later needs to upgrade her beginning horn.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: fsb2017
Date: 2017-08-21 00:06
ClarinetRobt wrote:
> Or she can use it for marching season if she sticks with
> clarinet and later needs to upgrade her beginning horn.
>
That's definitely true if she doesn't switch, in which case I would care a lot less about resale value. But if she does switch in two years it would be nice to know if people think there is a significant difference between the two for resale.
Maybe I'm behind the times and the Jupiter 710 is as highly regarded as the Yamaha 255 -- I played clarinet through high school (in the 90s) and I don't remember Jupiter clarinets.
Thanks for responding!
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-08-21 01:04
(For what it's worth) if buy the Yamaha if I was in the same situation.
Best of Luck!
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
Post Edited (2017-08-22 00:19)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2017-08-21 02:03
Jupiter instruments have been around for quite a while and were often seen in schools along with the American Beuscher They were not good quality instruments. In recent time the makers of Jupiter instruments have greatly improved quality control and are now almost as good , if not as good as Yamaha. Jupiter Clarinets ect are made in Taiwan and apparently the student grade Yamaha's are now made in Indonesia. Because the earlier Jupiter instruments were of a lower quality there is now unfortunately a stigma against the Jupiter brand despite these instruments now being of good quality. Yamaha have always had good quality in their instruments. Even the student models Hence Yamaha have a good re-sale value whereas Jupiter does not.
Skyfacer
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2017-08-21 05:47
Have you thought about renting rather than purchasing to begin with? Depending on what you have available locally this may be the best way to go until things become clear. Rental programs often include a certain amount of credit towards purchase. Sometimes this credit could be applied to a different instrument like a sax if that time comes.
Also, another factor to consider is that even if she switches to sax she may want a clarinet in high school as a double for jazz band.
Personally I would always chose a Yamaha over a Jupiter for a beginning student, although either is decent option.
Anders
Post Edited (2017-08-21 05:48)
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Author: fsb2017
Date: 2017-08-21 07:00
Renting around here seems to be about $30/month, so you're hitting $500 after 16/17 months, plus you can't resell. Rent to own sounds nice -- I don't think the shop I went to had that option but it's possible another shop nearby will.
I actually still have my clarinet from high school which is very good if she needs a clarinet in high school -- shop owner says it's too good to let her play now, hence buying another one.
Thanks, sounds like the Yamaha is the way to go.
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2017-08-21 09:38
In my high school, it's very common for students to buy a new student horn for middle school and then use the instrument as a marching instrument and I did the same thing too. If I were to start over again, I would have found an instrument on ebay.
I've done some REALLY stupid stuff with my instrument. I've dropped it plenty of times, polished my instrument so many times to the point where I misaligned a trill key (clean the sunscreen from band camp :P). There are several Yamahas online that seem pretty promising. However, if I was starting band and heard that I was going to get a used instrument, I'd be pretty discouraged.
There really is no black and white answer. I would ask what other band parents are doing and I would ask some older members what they did.
*edit: just read that you have another horn. I guess a good long term plan is to get a used student horn, (to answer your question, I would get the yamaha, Had a classmate who played on a Jupiter. They played nearly identical but I liked the Yamaha's key arrangement and case. so tiny :D ), and once she gets comfortable with playing/maintaining the clarinet, I would give the horn to her. If she does switch to sax, just sell the clarinet again.
Post Edited (2017-08-21 09:50)
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2017-08-21 16:49
I'd be tempted to call Ted Ridenour and see if they have any reconditioned horns in that price range... or add a few bucks get a new one.
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Author: fsb2017
Date: 2017-08-21 19:34
Thanks for all the responses.
The plot thickens, as I just discovered the $515 price for the Yamaha is for the YCL-200AD, which may be the equivalent to the YCL-250 (same clarinet as the 250 in a hard case) -- the precursor to the 255, I believe.
Does it change anyone's mind if I'm buying the YCL-250 instead of the YCL-255, or are they essentially equivalent?
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Author: fsb2017
Date: 2017-08-22 00:00
Well, it's done! I went to the store selling the Yamaha and it turns out they were selling the YCL-255 equivalent for $515 (if anyone cares, it's the YCL-200ADII, whereas the YCL-250 equivalent is the YCL-200AD). I bought it and am feeling good about the decision -- thank you to everyone who responded!
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-08-22 00:30
Good choice. Yamaha makes really nice instruments!!
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-08-22 01:47
fsb2017,
Please check the tuning very carefully. The YCL-200ADII has a "cylindrical" bore. If your instrument doesn't tune well, I hope your seller has a trial period in case you want to return it.
From a well known musical supplier, I found out that Yamaha makes the YCL-200ADII in China only for Guitar Center which owns Woodwind & Brasswind, Music123, Music & Arts, as well as Musician's Friends.
I could go on further, however, I don't want to spoil the joy you are feeling right now.
I sincerely hope it works out well for you.
Please have a seasoned player check the tuning.
I know of a better clarinet for only $54 more in case you return yours.
Best of luck to you!
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Author: fsb2017
Date: 2017-08-22 03:01
I had a feeling something would spoil my happiness. ;-) I thought all clarinets had cylindrical bores?
The store told me it was the equivalent to the YCL-255 but in a hard case. I can't find a difference in the specs on Yamaha's website, but it's definitely possible that it's manufactured separately!
Also this video comparing the YCL-250 and YCL-200AD said they were identical except for the case and logo, but they weren't looking down the bore or saying where they were manufactured, and those were also the prior model numbers.
I'm interested to hear the differences, but at this point I'm not feeling too badly. I spent about what I was planning to spend (although the same store offered the Buffet Prodige for $450, but I decided against it because I hadn't heard as much about it (v. the B12) and the case was bulkier -- should I return the Yamaha for the Buffet??), and I still feel better about the resale possibilities of the Yamaha v. the Jupiter.
I have a nicer clarinet when she's ready to upgrade, so this isn't for forever. Hopefully no major issues though!
*edited to add: I also just looked and the clarinet says it was made in Indonesia. Not sure where all YCL-255s are manufactured, but based on a scan of ebay listings a fair number are manufactured in Indonesia as well.
**edited again to add: this website, Hyson Music, also says they are the same (scroll to the bottom of this listing): http://www.hysonmusic.com/product/certified-pre-owned-yamaha-advantage-bb-clarinet-ycl-200adii-2-year-warranty/
Ok, I'm going to stop googling now and get back to work. :-)
Post Edited (2017-08-22 03:18)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-08-22 03:40
The fellow I was talking to was actually talking about the Buffet Prodige!
There are basically two kinds of "bores" located in the upper section of the clarinet. The cylindrical is one type and the second is called "poly-cylindrical". For the best tuning, IMHO, the poly-cylindrical will always beat out the cylindrical. When your daughter plays in band, the tones have to be very close or dissonance will occur. I believe cylindrical bores are much more difficult to "lip" into tune.
The Prodige has the poly-cylindrical bore and, instead of synthetic Valentino pads (which some plays do like), the Prodige has white leather pads which are supposed to give a much "warmer" sound.
At $450, that's $100 less than the musical supplier quoted me!
Now, this is strictly my opinion and others may disagree with me, but I would STRONGLY suggest that you return the "duplicate" YCL-255 and buy the Buffet Prodige.
Buffet is a very well known brand as well as Yamaha.
It would be nice if a few others "chimed in" with their expertise.
If I were you...I would definitely get the Buffet Prodige.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-08-22 17:58
Yamaha would have better resale, IMHO.
Not sure about the Jupiter, but this model Yamaha plays quite sharp for me ... your mileage may vary ...
Tom
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-08-22 21:36
Tom,
Because the YCL200ADII Advantage clarinet is made for "in store only" sales and rentals, it's primary reason for existence is rentals.
The YCL200ADII is supposed to be "identical" to the YCL255. Personally, I find it hard to believe that because the "Advantage" clarinet retails for around $500 and the "real thing" (YCL-255) retails for around $975. That's a huge difference! IMHO, the Yamaha Advantage series instruments sure give me the impression of being CSOs and the tuning, sound, and play ability won't be even close to the "real thing" costing so much more.
Currently, there are 2 YCL200ADII on that auction site. The first one is a bid item with one hour to go. The highest of the 4 bids is currently $167.50. The 2nd one is a $299.00 "buy it now" and has 2 days and one hour to go.
Two reportedly "identical" instruments with the "in store only" one costing one half of the "real thing" which can be sold "over the internet and in store" certainly makes me very skeptical as to their being truly "identical" in instrument quality.
Now, as to resale value, you may very well be correct. Why? Because Buffet only makes clarinets* whereas Yamaha makes clarinets, flutes, trumpets, pianos, motorcycles, 4 wheelers, etc., etc., etc. Even though Buffet has been making clarinets a whole lot longer than Yamaha, the Yamaha "brand name", I believe, is much more "familiar" to buyers.
But, I still believe the Buffet Protige will tune and sound better than the Yamaha YCL200ADII. And, for the first time player, I believe those two items will make all difference in the world.
But, I could be wrong...
* I stand corrected. Buffet makes clarinets, saxophones, oboes, flutes and bassoons.
Post Edited (2017-08-24 23:28)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2017-08-23 04:21
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. The YLC200 is much cheaper because, by definition, it is used. They were originally designated only for rentals. The only real difference was the case. The bore is the same. You are not going to find a modern Yamaha clarinet with significant intonation issues built into it.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-08-23 05:07
nellsonic, I believe the mom, fsb2017, felt she was buying a new clarinet because she paid $515 for it. If it was used, to me, she paid too much money.
There is another thread going on entitled: "When is it time to upgrade" by Tom Killian. He is a clarinet teacher who wanted recommendations for one of his students who is playing a Yamaha Advantage clarinet. I asked him a few questions about tone and intonation. His reply to me contained only his impressions as to the tone which he described as being "tinny".
Thanks for your comments.
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Author: fsb2017
Date: 2017-08-24 02:37
The Yamaha YCL200ADII was definitely new, not used. We ended up keeping the Yamaha. A little torn about it but time was running out and after more research I really do think the Advantage line from Yamaha are the same as their student models with a different logo and a hard case -- that's what I saw online in forums regarding other instruments as well, that Yamaha's advantage line is the same as the student model except in a hard case. Also the YCL200ADII has the same changes to the bell that the YCL255 made to the YCL250 (whereas the YCL200AD matched the 250 bell). So maybe Yamaha is bothering to manufacture nearly identical student clarinets in separate factories, but it seems to me it would be more cost efficient to produce identical student quality clarinets together and just slap on different logos on at the end. And as I said, my daughter's 200ADII said it was manufactured in Indonesia, which is where many YCL255s appear to be manufactured as well.
My guess is that the 200ADII is not supposed to be sold online, which is why it doesn't have an MSRP and you don't see it for sale new online. I think that also explains why the resale value is less than the YCL255 -- it isn't sold new for $1000 and it's less known than the YCL255 because it lacks an internet presence and isn't marketed for online sales.
I also saw in other forums that my music store wasn't the only one that only sold the Advantage models and stopped selling the equivalent Yamaha student models -- according to my store they understood that it was the same instrument in an upgraded hard case and felt that all students would want the hard case.
In any event, I'm a little torn about the Buffet Prodige, and thanks for your input on it Dan, but I feel ok about the decision. The Yamaha case was much smaller, which I do think will be nicer for her, and the Prodige is a new model that isn't as time-tested for sturdiness/reliability (and I saw that people had complaints about the B12's durability/mechanics). I can't imagine a Yamaha clarinet won't be a pretty good student model that I can resell, and then I have the nicer one for her to use when she's ready.
Thanks everyone!
Post Edited (2017-08-25 00:43)
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-08-24 22:16
Time for a minor rant about intonation
Buffet made lots of noise about their polycylindrical clarinet, but my experience with R13s at least is that some of them are in tune and some aren't but none of them are any better than Yamaha 2x series clarinet, which are all the same!...none of the variability. I have up on my R13 when I discovered older Selmers like the Series 9 and Centered Tone which seem easy enough to play in tune. A nicely reconditioned Vito will play better in tune than some R13s, unless you have them professionally modified.
If we get into a discussion about the aesthetics and ergonomics of keywork, bore design and response, tone, etc...then the bigger differences emerge.
Clarinet don't "play in tune", they are played in tune by the student/artist. All of the clarinets mentioned here can be played in tune without heroic skill.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2017-08-24 23:41
"Clarinet don't "play in tune", they are played in tune by the student/artist."
I remember Tom Ridenour in one of his ads saying: "Just set your embouchure and forget about it".
Personally, I don't think a person should have to "reset" their embouchure for particular notes. I like the "set it and forget it" idea very much.
Just my opinion...
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Author: AnnieBee
Date: 2017-09-16 23:59
FSB2017,
Do you mind me asking where you found the $515 price for the Yamaha YCL 255 / Yamaha YCL 200ADii? I'm not sure if there is a rule against that. I having been researching and researching and am leaning towards the Yamaha YCL 255 for my beginning 5th grader.
I have found a used one for $450 ("excellent condition" according to the store, and has a 1 year warranty) and a new one for $600, which is more than I'd like to pay. But $450 seems a lot for used if there are new ones selling for $515 out there...
Thanks!
Post Edited (2017-09-17 00:31)
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Author: fsb2017
Date: 2017-09-18 08:52
It was at a local music store in Mountain View, CA, and for the 200ADii, not the 255. Several internet sources and the store I bought it from said that they are the same instrument just with differences in Yamaha's numbering and where/how they sell them.
I'd call around to other local brick and mortar stores -- I think sometimes the higher volume sellers get better and different deals from Yamaha.
The pricing for the Buffet Prodige seems to be a little lower than for the Yamaha, and in general people seem to like it equally well (or at least equal numbers of people seem to prefer each one) -- maybe buying one of those new will be a more attractive price?
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