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 Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: thereallukasj 
Date:   2017-08-06 10:27

Just wanted to ask for some explanation on how rosewood and grenadilla differ sound wise and how the two feel in comparison.

Thanks!

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2017-08-06 14:25

Rosewood is illegal for one thing these days in the US.......

Do you mean Cocobolo?

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2017-08-06 15:48

DavidBlumberg wrote:

> Rosewood is illegal for one thing these days in the US.......


Are you sure about this? I believe Rosewood species (which would include Grenadilla and Cocobolo) are regulated under CITIES but they are not illegal to buy from within the US or own.

Unless there is some new regulation I don't know about.

-Jdbassplayer

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: el gitano 
Date:   2017-08-06 15:57

Rosewood is not a special kind of wood. Mostly it means (palisander) jacaranda.
Grenadilla is also a kind of rosewood, now a controled wood and needs cites, special document for the control of origen.
Jacaranda is a bit more sensible by changing the humidity. Grenadilla is more stabel.
Some musicans says, the jacaranda sounds sweeter as grenadilla, but I think it is minimal.

Claus



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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2017-08-06 17:06

el gitano wrote:

> Jacaranda is a bit more sensible by changing the humidity.
> Grenadilla is more stabel.

I have found this to be true of my Patricola clarinet made of "rosewood," which is probably, as you say, jacaranda. The throat A key was binding every winter because of the drop in humidity here in suburban Philadelphia. I finally had to file a little off the ends of the hinge tube to get it to move freely during the cold months. I've never had this problem with any of my grenadilla clarinets.

Karl

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: richard smith 
Date:   2017-08-06 17:33

doubt that there is measurable acoustic difference , as has been discussed in several books, such as Jeans, for example.

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: Johan H Nilsson 2017
Date:   2017-08-06 17:57

Hondurian rosewood has lower density than grenadilla. The Leblanc Symphonie VII in rosewood definitely has a brighter sound than the Opus in grenadilla. This makes sense since the instrument body vibrates when you play.

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2017-08-06 18:22

Johan H Nilsson wrote:

> Hondurian rosewood has lower density than grenadilla. The
> Leblanc Symphonie VII in rosewood definitely has a brighter
> sound than the Opus in grenadilla. This makes sense since the
> instrument body vibrates when you play.

Why does the vibration of the wood make the tone brighter? Or the lack of vibration? It isn't clear from your post which wood vibrates more or how that affects the overtone distribution.

Is it possible that the Symphonie VII is designed differently from the Opus?

Karl

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: WhitePlainsDave 
Date:   2017-08-06 19:01

"Why does the vibration of the wood make the tone brighter? Or the lack of vibration?"

I don't know--in fact I don't know if its the case, as you seem to rightly question Karl.

What I do know, as most of us do, if not completely grasp, is that sound's a form of energy capably of affecting the things around it, like--the clarinet itself. And that the more the clarinet vibrates by absorbing this energy, the less that is left for tone production.

(To be clear: this is not a commentary akin to Mike Lowenstern's video on how clarinet players move around--it's just physics. Nor is it a commentary on the weight of materials clarinets can or should be made out of, nor how much a clarinet should vibrate.)

Ever try to cut a piece of wood held loosely in a vice grip? It takes forever as the wood vibrates to the movement of the saw, absorbing energy that ideally is suppose to be applied to cut. Tighten the vice grip, the cut becomes easier to make.

Same principle.

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2017-08-06 19:18

WhitePlainsDave wrote:

> What I do know, as most of us do, if not completely grasp, is
> that sound's a form of energy capably of affecting the things
> around it, like--the clarinet itself. And that the more the
> clarinet vibrates by absorbing this energy, the less that is
> left for tone production.
>
That would be my intuitive guess, too, although I'm not certain the acoustic physicists confirm that this affects the acoustic result. It could explain why the more vibrant material might muffle or damp the volume of the sound. It would need to do this in a non-linear way over the range of harmonics in the sound to affect the tone's "brightness" or "darkness."

That's my question - is this what's happening and does the wood's increased vibration (if it really happens) absorb less of the higher partials than the lower ones? Or is the difference Johan hears in tone quality between a rosewood Symphonie VII and a grenadilla Opus caused by something else in the instruments' design?

Karl

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: el gitano 
Date:   2017-08-06 22:16

Hi Karl,
that´s the dangerous position to splitt the clarinet, the upper a-key and the register-key, because the keys are crossing the ¿wood fiber? (I don´t know it´s the correct word), and wood drys more crossing the fiber, so the key crossing the fiber is disturbing the possibility to ¿shrink? (correct word), and the upper joint will splitt
I hope you can understand my explication
Claus

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: Johan H Nilsson 2017
Date:   2017-08-06 22:48

Karl,

"Why does the vibration of the wood make the tone brighter? Or the lack of vibration? It isn't clear from your post which wood vibrates more or how that affects the overtone distribution."

At least in theory, the materials have different resonance frequency due to the different density.

"Is it possible that the Symphonie VII is designed differently from the Opus?"

I am quite convinced it wasn't, apart from the practical necessities of having plastic tone hole inserts on rosewood clarinets. There are also some Opus instruments in rosewood.

Here's a sample of two instruments side by side (VII first and last, Opus in the middle).
http://picosong.com/vBjQ

There is of course variation between individual instruments but I have tested three different VIIs and several more Opuses so I think these two instruments represent the difference quite well.

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: Johan H Nilsson 2017
Date:   2017-08-07 01:41

A serious approach would have to use several instruments, spectrum analysis and statistical methods to locate systematic differences.

My impression is that the biggest (and perhaps only audible) difference between the VII and Opus is in the middle clarion range.

It is my experience that tone differences are difficult to hear if the room is too "dry". The recording I linked to is from a kitchen.

Everyone who tried failed the metal vs. wood clarinet blind test that someone linked to less than a year ago, but those recordings were very "dry".

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: el gitano 
Date:   2017-08-07 18:07

I´am always surprisede, how a human can hear a difference between the instruments. Sorry, for me it´s the same.
Claus

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: Johan H Nilsson 2017
Date:   2017-08-08 00:14

Claus, I wouldn't swear I would pass a blind test on these two instruments, but without a good set of earphones or loudspeakers you will definitely not hear any differences.

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: dubrosa22 
Date:   2017-08-09 02:24

Wood names are confusing. Most woods used in clarinet and wooden flutemaking are in fact Rosewoods:

Grenadilla is a Rosewood (Dalbergia melanoxylon) but often called African Blackwood.

Jacaranda is usually another name for Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra)
[however it shouldn't be confused with the common flowery Jacaranda Central/South American tree (also very common in South Africa and Australia now) which is a not a Rosewood at all but a member of the Bignoniaceae family (Jacaranda mimosifolia).]

Cocobolo is a Rosewood (Dalbergia retusa)

Palisander is a Rosewood (Dalbergia spp. (D. baronii, D. greveana, D. madagascariensis, and D. monticola)

Indian Rosewood is a Rosewood (Dalbergia sissoo)


Some woods in wind instrument making are not Rosewood:

Boxwood (Buxus sempervirens)

Cocuswood (Brya ebenus)

African Padauk (Pterocarpus soyauxii)

and New Guinea Rosewood is not a Rosewood (Pterocarpus indicus)

V

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: kdk 2017
Date:   2017-08-09 05:00

dubrosa22 wrote:

> Wood names are confusing. Most woods used in clarinet and
> wooden flutemaking are in fact Rosewoods:
>

This is a wonderful compendium of the various instrument woods. Thank you.

The obvious question, which I imagine would be more involved than simply naming all the Dalbergia species, is, what are the differences among them in stability and other physical attributes? Which are most dense, which are least? Which are more brittle and which more elastic? What other differences are there that could influence the machining process and the finished instrument's usability?

Karl

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2017-08-09 08:08

The material and density of the wood makes a noticeable soffeeence.

Compare the Buffet R-13 to the more dense wood of the Prestige.

Noticeable difference

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: Dibbs 
Date:   2017-08-09 15:03

Karl,

The online wood database has all the figures you ask for.

http://www.wood-database.com/african-blackwood/

http://www.wood-database.com/brazilian-rosewood/

http://www.wood-database.com/cocobolo/

http://www.wood-database.com/madagascar-rosewood/

http://www.wood-database.com/sissoo/

http://www.wood-database.com/boxwood/

http://www.wood-database.com/castelo-boxwood/

http://www.wood-database.com/cocuswood/

http://www.wood-database.com/african-padauk/

http://www.wood-database.com/narra/

You can find others with potential in there too
e.g. http://www.wood-database.com/leadwood/

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: jdbassplayer 
Date:   2017-08-09 18:07

David Blumberg,

How can you be sure that the difference is due to the density of the wood and not due to the improved fit and finish of the higher end Buffet models? Surely the huge price difference can't just be due to better wood.

Also, has anyone actually measured the density of various samples of Grenadilla wood? I would suspect that companies like Buffet would pick wood for their higher end models based off of the uniformity of the grain and the lack of defects. Does Buffet actually sort Grenadilla by weight?

-Jdbassplayer

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 Re: Rosewood vs grenadilla
Author: el gitano 
Date:   2017-08-09 21:27

Hi,
I´am shure, that the quality of the same kind of wood, also different parts of the same tree, is different.
And I´ve seen broken E11, by worse using, but also by worse wood quality. I don´t think they will use this piece of wood for a higher model.
So, different woods, wood quality, work quality, ........ It´s difficult to compare a clarinet by diffrent wood.

Claus

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