 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: carlosclarinet
Date: 2017-05-15 05:38
As far as I know the difference between 440 and 442 is about a mm in barrel length (Buffet). My RC is European so it came with a 65mm barrel and an "F" serial number indicating it plays 442. I switch to a 66mm barrel and it's still wicked sharp... [consistently] wicked sharp =20cent. Any ideas? Am I missing something? Is the whole clarinet shorter? Or does this clarinet just suck?
P.s. I pulled the barrel out a couple mm. Same issue persists. Is it worth getting adjusted?
RC Prestige
Vandoren M30D
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2017-05-15 06:03
According to François Kloc, the only difference between F serial numbered Buffets and those without the F is that the barrel is 1 mm. shorter on the F instruments.
The difference between A 442 and A 440 is small enough to adjust automatically with the embouchure.
I defy you to hear the difference between an orchestra at 440 and 442 without using an electronic tuner.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-05-15 07:47
Ken, I had thought the same before I checked the spare parts catalog of Buffet. In the catalog, the ordering numbers of upper and lower joint of F and non F versions are different. Thus I wonder if they are really same or not.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2017-05-15 16:23
Ken said "I defy you to hear the difference between an orchestra at 440 and 442 without using an electronic tuner. I agree. BUT, it you're playing in an orchestra and they are playing and tuning at 440 and you're at 442 you will have a big problem, especially in a professional orchestra. My experience is yes, the barrel makes a big difference but sometimes so does the mouthpiece, even the bell and the player. Sometimes one has to pull out the middle joint a little bit depending on how your instrument is tuning. On my old Bb Buffet, 90K series, I have a permanent ring installed. Of course it's easier to pull parts out if you sharp, more of a problem if your flat. Then you do need a shorter barrel and you may then have to adjust some tone holes with tape if neccessary. Remember to old quote, Better to be sharp than out tune! :-)
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: carlosclarinet
Date: 2017-05-15 17:31
Thanks for all the feedback guys! I'll get back to you shortly with a tuning chart of the instrument. But..... What about humidity? The Netherlands is 55° and low humidity. The clarinet has been traveling for about a week in the ocean and its now in Miami 99° and 85% humidity.
What if it swelled up? Certainly would make it sharp. Will this fix itself?
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Author: carlosclarinet
Date: 2017-05-15 20:50
The biggest descrepencies in tuning are in the clarion range. The throat tones are all in tune. Long tones are just as sharp as short tones.
My daily mouthpiece is an M30D but I also tried it on my Behn mouthpiece, same result.
My living room, where I've been playing this instrument, is usually 78° and 60% humidity.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-05-16 02:17
The M30D is a quite low tuning mouthpiece.
The temperature is normal and shouldn't affect. The humidity in the air cannot possibly compare to the effect of playing or oiling.
RC bore clarinets have all the twelfths on the "wide" side, i.e. all clarion tones are sharper than their chalumeau counterpart (which you seem to experience). Personally I don't like it and prefer the R13 bore instruments with a mixture of wide and narrow twelfths.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2017-05-16 06:36
Carlosclirinet said "The throat tones are all in tune." Maybe I'm not interpreting this correctly because the throat tones are the ones most effect by the size of a barrel and pulling it out or pushing it in. They can also be the most problematic when voicing.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2017-05-16 15:19
I have played a pair of "F" pitched RCs and can only say that these were pitched quite high: 442-444 is quite common. Playing these on 440 is possible but only by pulling the barrel, middle joint and even the bell a few mm. Not an ideal situation if you play at 440 only.
RCs should have a very good internal intonation: no wide or small twelfths.
Afaik Buffet did make different upper and bottom joints with different tone hole spacing to accomadate the different pitches. Almost certain about the older RC and R13 models. Don't know about the newer clarinets like Tosca.
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Author: carlosclarinet
Date: 2017-05-16 20:05
Thank you for all the information. I have a this clarinet on a trial period of two weeks but I'm going to return it for something else. My 6 year old R13 plays better and way more in tune than this Prestige. It's just frustrating smh.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2017-05-16 21:01
Jeroen, as far as I know Tosca is based on the lower pitched R13 and Divine on the higher pitched RC.
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-05-17 04:35
I don't understand why RC is high pitched because RC also has two versions, one 440 and one 442.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2017-05-17 22:48
Klose, as I understand the RC was originally developed for the European a=442 market while the R13 was aimed for the American a=440 market. Despite that, currently the RC (not Prestige) comes with two barrels, one for each tuning, while the RC Prestige can be ordered in different versions for each tuning. The latter indicates that there may be other differences than just the length of the barrel concerning these Prestige models.
Apparently at some point in time there developed a big enough demand for lower tuned RC's, which Buffet adapted to.
On the other hand, some 442-players prefer the R13 rather than other models especially made for that level, despite that the R13 is offered only in a 440 version (both the R13 and the R13 Prestige). They may just "lip it up", use a special barrel or a higher tuned mouthpiece. Since Buffet isn't offering higher pitched R13's the demand for such ones isn't probably as big as for the lower tuned RC's.
Post Edited (2017-05-17 23:02)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2017-05-17 23:01
Just an additional detail: Only the RC Prestige in Bb and A can be ordered in an lower tuned version, not the C, D or Eb versions. These latter ones are only offered for the a=442 level.
Post Edited (2017-05-17 23:15)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-05-17 23:30
Micke, thank you for your explanation. Correct me if I am wrong: I notice it seems that only in clarinet world we see this 442/440 thing. For other woodwind instruments, no company makes two versions or some models for 440 and some models for 442.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2017-05-17 23:42
I may be wrong, but the reason that other WW do not have pitch designations is because they are built with greater flexibility, and their pitch is more greatly influenced by the embouchure.
Clarinet design/and embouchure is more "set". Right?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-05-18 03:17
James, I really do not think so. We can bend notes on clarinet far more easily than oboe, bassoon and flute. That's why clarinet is also more often used in jazz and other genre of music. To be honest, I have a feeling that this 442/440 thing is more or less like a marking thing.
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Author: carlosclarinet
Date: 2017-05-18 07:00
This RC Prestige plays very wonderfully and soloistic by it self, but I’m skeptical about its ability to blend with other instruments given its tuning, esp. other clarinets.
(Pro tip: Don’t buy a 442 R13/RC Prestige from Europe and expect to change their tuning with a longer barrel)
This was an issue that I didn't even know exsisted... like I said, a simple barrel change should have worked :(
What a mistake.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2017-05-18 11:45
Carlos, according to the Buffet Website http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments/clarinets/ the model number of the RC Prestige in Bb for 440 is BC1106L-2 (click on the RC Prestige and then just scroll down to the bottom to see all the different versions and their model numbers). There is also a Greenline version of the Bb in 440, with a different model number.
If you otherwise like the RC, you can perhaps send back this 442 pitched and get a 440 pitched instead?
It's of course already apparent from my previous posts, but I still want to stress that the R13 isn't just a lower pitched version of the RC. They represent two different tonal concepts targeting the different preferences about clarinet sound between America and Europe. That's of course generally speaking since some in America prefer the RC and still others in Europe prefer the R13.
Besides the tonal differences I just learned from Johan H Nilsson's post above that also the concept of internal tuning is different between the RC and R13.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2017-05-18 12:59
Klose, I wouldn't agree that this 440/442 difference is just a marketing thing. As Carlos experiences in this thread shows, playing an 442 pitched clarinet on a 440 level may be quite problematic and not easily fixed just by a longer barrel or a pullout of it.
Worth considering is also the fact that we don't always play in air conditioned/heated rooms of constant temperature. Thus if the temperature where we play is above or below normal and thus rising or lowering the general tuning level of our instrument, the effects of a mismatch between the set tuning level of our instrument and our desired level could be even greater. Thus a certain margin both up and down depending on playing conditions is good to have, which you would loose if already the set level is more or less off your desired level.
However, your question about other woodwind instruments in this regard is very interesting. Considering that some German orchestras play at an a=445 level the leap between 440 and 445 is of course huge. I'm quite sure that, as an example, mouthpieces for flutes with different lengths are offered. But could it be that the effects on tuning of shorter or longer flute mouthpieces are distributed more evenly through the tonal scale of flutes compared to changes in barrel length on clarinets?
Perhaps someone playing other woodwinds could tell about this?
Post Edited (2017-05-19 12:59)
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-05-18 13:24
Micke, I couldn't agree more that playing an 442 pitched clarinet on a 440 level may be quite problematic. However, experienced players can overcome this by changing embouchure etc. This is same for other woodwind instruments. I wonder for soloists like Fröst, do they all use two sets of A/B clarinets and two basset clarinets to play with different pitched orchestras?
Post Edited (2017-05-18 13:28)
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Author: William
Date: 2017-05-18 23:11
My friend says, "Its better to play in tune than be in tune." lol
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2017-05-19 00:12
Klose, you are absolutely right that experienced players can handle a difference of 2 Hz. Perhaps a preparation with a longer barrel, possible tuning rings or at least practice at the intended tuning level would be needed, but surely it would be manageable.
Anyway some international soloists actually have different sets of instruments for different environments. Karl Leister told on a YouTube video from a masterclass held in the States about his Wurlitzer clarinets there that they were tuned to 440. Since he didn't visit America that often he said that those instruments mostly were "at sleep". Considering that the general tuning level in Germany is 443-445 it would of course be a more problematic adaptation in such cases than just going from 442 to 440.
In my case I mostly play in an 442 environment with an instrument aimed for 443 (as I understand), and only occasionally at an 440 level. As long as the room temperature is around a normal 70 °F I can handle those latter instances fairly, but at higher temperatures I'm in trouble (a temperature change of 2 °C or 3,6 °F is said to affect the tuning with about 1 Hz, according to the Gerold clarinets website).
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Author: carlosclarinet
Date: 2017-05-20 00:33
I checked again. This instrument is actually closer to 444Hz. It's annoyingly sharp to my ear.
I'm buying the new Tradition!
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Author: jthole
Date: 2017-05-21 01:36
My experience with RC clarinets is that they (with the stock barrel) are tuned sharp, and we tune at 442Hz here. My guess is that playing a R13 at A=442Hz (with a shorter barrel) would actually be easier than playing a RC at 440Hz.
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The Clarinet Pages
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,![[B4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b4.gif)
) equally sharp as the short tones (![[Ab4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/ab4.gif)
,![[A4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/a4.gif)
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