 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: carlosclarinet
Date: 2017-04-23 05:59
Hey guys im new to the forum and this is my first post. hurray!
My question regards buying a new clarinet. First, some context… I currently play on an R13 and have been for 6 years and I am going to Grad school and need something with better intonation. I am looking at a Buffet RC Prestige/ R13 Prestige and also the new “Traditional” clarinet. I can’t make up my mind.
What are some of the differences (and I don’t mean technical. i.e. bore sizes) real world differences that differentiate these instruments?
And WHY are the Prestige models so much more expensive than the Tradition?! At current prices there is roughly a $2,000 price difference between them. What am I missing?
Thanks, this would really help!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2017-04-23 06:15
carlosclarinet wrote:
> At current prices there is roughly a $2,000 price
> difference between them. What am I missing?
Save the money. Learn to play your current R13 in tune, or get it adjusted by a tech.
No guarantees that a higher priced Buffet will have better intonation.
Thousands of pros play the regular R13 very successfully in professional settings.
90% of ensemble playing is listening and adjusting on every note. There is no such thing as a clarinet that you can "set it and forget it".
...GBK
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2017-04-23 06:15
The retail prices of Prestige/Festival/Tradition are exact same.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-04-23 06:22
If you want to stick with Buffet and your R13 is fairly old, you might want to test play a few recent vintage R13/Greenline clarinets. My last wooden R13 (1996) was very good, but not nearly as good in tuning, smoothness, response and timbre. I've had this new instrument for 3 weeks and very surprised ... almost gobsmacked. Maybe it's my imagination ... it's the "new" effect ...
I don't know if this horn is an anomaly or what, but I did play two more new greenlines and they were very similar. I suspect there are fewer variations in the composite clarinets than the all-wood versions ... the greenlines may be consistently closer to the reference R13 that is on the shelve at Buffet ... just my guess.
It also might be that due to all of us griping at Buffet on quality and performance and with Yamaha and Backun on their heals, they cleaned up their act.
In any case, I like my new Buffet. Now, I do mostly prefer the acoustics of the Yamahas (especially the CSVR) and the Ridenour Lyrique instruments, because they still tune better and are smoother and easier to play ... but the familiar sweetness and glow of the R13 is worth the extra effort, for some occasions. Besides, IMHO, the newest Buffets in composite are pretty good.
If you can take the heat from you colleges and instructor, I'd really test drive the Yamaha CSVR ... if the truth be known, this may be the best wooden clarinet on the planet. I can get a second on that notion from many professionals.
Tom
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-04-23 09:37
Well, I have three R13s and like them all. When new, they got better from an overhaul as I don't think Buffet used double skin pads in 2005 qnd earlier.
However, when I got a very good price about five years ago on a new R13 Prestige at Matthew's Musiek, I bought it with no trial and like it a lot. It has excellent tuning, but the high F# is a bit low, especially with an old V12. Low E and F plus middle B and C are all good, as are E2 and F2. It seems to project a bit more than my R13s. While I like the extra Eb/Ab key, it tends to be slightly in the way, even though I've shortened it a bit. The Gortex pads seem to cover well but are a little bit squishy. I thinned some of the sliver keys a bit, as I have large fingers. It seems an iota heavier than the R13s.
On trying the Tosca, the low correction key got in the way and seemed unneeded.
You were not specific with your intonation problems with your R13, but I suspect some problems can be fixed by an expert clarinet tuner.
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2017-04-23 11:36
I was talking to someone (won't mention their name, because I don't feel like I should.) The person said that Buffet are using lower quality wood for the R13 and pushing for their top line stuff like the Tosca, Divine, and Tradition. Personally I don't like any of those clarinets, but the Tradition was pretty good. I just don't think they sound that good (though when you find a good Tosca it's a good one, but those are hard to find.) With that being said they've actually redesigned the RC Prestige. Apparently they're so good that James Ognibene (bass clarinet player of the Met) bought a set of them. Now before you go out and try them Selmer has actually come out with a new line called the "Presence". Ognibene tried them and said they played similarly, but it's significantly cheaper. So you should should out the Presence. I know I will when I'm in the market for a new clarinet.
Personally I love the Buffet Vintage, but I have an R13 Bb. Sadly I was about to buy the Bb Vintage, but couldn't and when I tried to find it and buy it was sold. Had someone try to find them (called 4 different states) and none of them had it in stock.
Anyway, you should check out the Selmer Presence and the RC Prestige if you want to pay for the "same" clarinet, but more.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-04-23 17:51
The more expensive Buffets do use better wood than the standard R13.
As a contrast, Morrie Backun says they don't do this on their instruments ... same wood for all clarinets. All of their wood is prime.
The Prestige series (and perhaps the Festival) uses wood closer to the heart of the tree (heartwood) which is older and more dense. This may resonate better than the standard R13 grade of blackwood. The Prestige series also uses their most experienced technicians to assemble, adjust and test the clarinets, says Buffet, a number of years ago ...
I am saying that the greenline material, being highly compressed blackwood, filler and binder under many tons of pressure, is much more like (or even denser) than select heartwood. Therefore, it should ring and resonate well.
When the first greenline clarinets made their way to the USA, I was curious and talked to customer service at Buffet (in Florida, I guess ...) and a nice lady stated that most players seemed to think the composite played like well selected blackwood that had been played for about 2 years ... Since the wood is core drilled and treated in an oil bath, it must dry out and become denser with time, and perhaps typically a clarinet at 2 years is about optimum. (???)
I dunno 100% if this is all true, just throwing stuff out I've heard over the years ...
Don't let the Yamaha CSVR get past you without a try ...
Tom
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-04-23 18:13
"The Prestige series (and perhaps the Festival) uses wood closer to the heart of the tree (heartwood) which is older and more dense. This may resonate better than the standard R13 grade of blackwood. The Prestige series also uses their most experienced technicians to assemble, adjust and test the clarinets, says Buffet, a number of years ago ..."
Absolute load of bull faeces - they can't guarantee that being such a high volume producer and will at best match billets according to colour and grain pattern if that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-04-23 18:16
... and right now on my bench I have an RC with a serious defect - a worm hole going through the lower joint socket that's been filled in when this joint should've been scrapped. Defects like this can lead to socket cracks as the defect is below the socket ring, so there's nothing to prevent it splitting and the crack running down the lower joint unchecked unless it terminates in a tonehole or pillar hole.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2017-04-23 18:30
When your clarinet was new, was the intonation better than it is now? There have been many discussions on this board about wood clarinet bore dimensions gradually changing.
If the intonation was better in the past, it might be worth having it checked out by an expert tech. If the bore is off, reaming is a possibility, or you could contact Larry Naylor about an immersion oiling.
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/oil-immersion-processing-of-deteriorated-grenadilla-instruments
Post Edited (2017-04-23 18:34)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-04-23 19:18
Or if things have got progressively stuffy over time, have the toneholes checked as fibres and whatnot will build up in them over time if you leave it for too long between having it serviced.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-04-23 20:20
Yup! It may be total bull-crap ... just echoing what I have heard about the Prestige series.
The point is that wood is the worst possible material to expect consistency and durability. It is time to move on to something else. The problem is to overcome prejudice by purchasers. I suspect when Buffet engineered the greenline material, they used blackwood as the main ingredient as a marketing tool. They could have just as easily used crushed chicken bones and told everyone it was blackwood, and no one would have noticed the difference and sales would have been good.
Tom
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Author: carlosclarinet
Date: 2017-04-23 20:42
I really appreciate the feedback, thanks!! Intonation has unfortunately always been an issue on my R13. I don’t think it’s a matter of “learning to play my instrument in tune”… Approaching a note from a deficit of -20/+20 cent isn’t the same as correcting for just a couple of cents per note. Especially when the clarinet itself is inconsistent. Barrels and bells are a gimmick imo.
The professionals that play on R13s have probably play tested over 2 dozen instruments before choosing one that was good, and with that process you can absolutely find an R13 that plays better than a Divine (hyperbole)… but you get the idea.
Unfortunately when I first purchased my R13 I did not have the knowledge I have today… I would have tried many more. I found an international vendor that is selling the RC Prestige at half price. I will try a Traditional and R13 Prestige as well.
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Author: RKing
Date: 2017-04-23 21:16
I have another suggestion: I suggest you send your current R-13 to someone who really knows these instruments - such as Guy Chadash in New York City.
He took my inconsistent R-13 and turned it into a beautiful horn that plays and stays in tune. He also restored a vintage R-13 for me and his technical expertise is what keeps me playing Buffet horns. If anyone knows how to make Buffets perform at their best, it is he.
It's cheaper than buying a new horn.
Post Edited (2017-04-23 21:17)
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Author: efsf081
Date: 2017-04-24 06:57
>>carlosclarinet
It seem your r13 is really bad. I don't think that tuning problem should happen even to a b12.
Has your teacher try your clarinet? Or have you try other clarinet of your classmate?
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Author: James S
Date: 2017-04-24 08:28
You should totally swing down to Clarinetfest! There are tons of super great clarinets beyond the Buffet circle. You might be surprised what yah fall in love with!
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Author: Geronimo
Date: 2017-04-24 23:06
To your original post, if you can find a well made R13 prestige or Tosca they can be a great find.
I use a prestige but if I were in the market of getting a new set I would be looking at Yamaha and Selmer just as much as buffet. Personal preference I suppose. I've noticed most of the grad students around me that enter on buffet instruments typically move to either the Selmer signature or the Yamaha CSVR. Can't think of any who stuck with buffet after trying the others.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-04-25 22:39
In 2005, I visited the Buffet facility and was kindly given 10 or 12 R13s to try, as I wanted to buy. They all needed adjustment, I felt, and none seemed to be worse or much better than any other. On buying one, I immediately overhauled it, adjusting the springs, and replacing the factory single skin pads with double skin pads. No serious tuning changes were needed but the high F# was and is a little low, correctable with adding the G#/C# key.
The complaints about Buffet tuning continue, but few here identify them. I suspect that better focusing and better air support by the player could make a difference.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-04-25 23:36
"if you can find a well made Tosca"
Is there such a thing?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-04-26 17:37
I have pushed how good the Yanaha CSVR's are. I switched this year and was shocked. I was into Buffets for maybe 40 years. The CSVR's are amazing horns. Also the Selmer Signatures are as well. Test one. Save a lot of money and you will really enjoy the Yamaha's. They tune well, the bores are great, big rich sounds, and they pretty much play right out of the case. One person did write and he said he had to have his adjusted, but once it was adjusted he was very happy. Well EVERY Buffet has to be adjusted.
I tested the Vintage Buffets and they had intonation problems. It is good that you couldn't find one.
Look for the Yamaha's and me at the ClarinetFest. We are at separate booths, but in the same building. If I'm not too busy I will play a bit for you so you can hear how good they are. They are live and they will fill a room. They make clarinet playing fun and not expensive.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-04-27 02:09
I agree 100% with Tom and Bob. You need to put aside the thought that the Buffet Mafia is going to come after you if you switch to another brand. Please give the Yamaha CSVR a try. I bought a set right out of the box. OMG. They are so much better than a set of Toscas that a "big name" clarinetist supposedly picked out for me. I was truly shocked at their excellence and I was able to buy a Bb during a special promotion for $2,500!!! I own three sets of clarinets and I would score the Yamaha a 95, a Ripamonti Ripa 90 and the Toscas an 80. (The Ripa is a very good and interesting clarinet with some small and brilliant innovations. that Flavio Ripamonti has incorporated.) I must admit that I used to be a member of the Buffet Mafia. Who knows - maybe I will play Buffet again down the road. But I agree with John Yeh and Julie DeRoche who play the CSVRs. (Yes, I own three sets of horns because I am single and have no mortgage!)
I will leave you with this quote that somebody told me. Why are you playing Buffet? "Well, my teacher played Buffet." Why did he play Buffet. ""His teacher played Buffet." Those older Buffets play so much better than the Buffets that are currently manufactured. Is it partly due to demand exceeds supply?.
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