 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-05-05 20:58
Anyone out there have any experience with the Yamaha YCL 622ii bass clarinet? Pros/cons, comments, etc. would be appreciated!
Post Edited (2016-05-05 23:31)
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Author: jimk
Date: 2016-05-05 23:38
I would like to experience one, but they seem to be hard to find.
1. My local music store, a Yamaha dealer, says the Yamaha rep won't let them get one for me to try on approval unless I agree in advance to buy it or a replacement if there is a problem with the original instrument.
2. I happened to be a couple hundred miles east of you a few weeks ago and saw a store there had one listed on their web site. The price was about $500 less than some other sources. I called the store to confirm they had the instrument. After a lot of keyboard work the clerk told me they used to have one, but sold it four days earlier. He didn't know when they would have another one. He offered to contact me if they get another one in. I realized later he did NOT offer to order one for me. I've been checking the store web site a couple times a week for the past six weeks and it always says the 622ii is in stock.
3. I've asked a large music store and Yamaha dealer in a third state about the possibility of playing a 622ii. The store owner never answers and instead offers used instruments they have refurbished to "better than new" condition.
4. The Woodwind & Brasswind web site says they have the 622ii, but that's actually a recent change. They were out of stock for a few months with several adjustments to the expected delivery date. I'd rather not do business with them, for reasons beyond bass clarinets.
Have you actually found a 622ii?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-05-05 23:57
What I have heard is their tone is very even across their range compared to other pro level basses. The two I had a close but very brief look at were badly out of regulation due to neglect, but I never got to play them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2016-05-06 00:00
Tried two of them (one to low-Eb and one to low-C) over a decade ago, didn't like the sound of either. But it was a long time ago.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2016-05-06 01:42
Tucker,
I tried a low Eb model recently that was in the shop at Meridian Winds for an adjustment. It was just OK and I said "well, if I want to upgrade to a better bass someday, I do not need to try a Yamaha." My old Selmer Model 30 plays rings around it.
BTW, I play a Yamaha CS Custom as my main Bb soprano clarinet and have an outstanding YTS 475 tenor as the back-up for my Mark VI. These are tremendous instruments; too bad the bass is not the same.
HRL
Post Edited (2016-05-06 05:18)
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-05-06 05:24
Hi Phil,
The 622II is well-made and well-priced (compared to most other pro horns, at least).
The tuning is unremarkable (tunes no better than other brands of pro horns designed back in the 70s/80s). While it does blow pretty evenly, it has a very small, threadbare sound. I personally didn't like it.
Yamaha make great soprano clarinets. Their pro basses, IMHO, are non-starters.
Chris
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-05-06 06:28
Thanks or everyone's input. We ran across a lightly used one at a pretty good price. My band mate was interested but didn't know anything about them. I'm certainly no help so I thought I'd turn to my online friends. Thanks again!
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2016-05-31 17:53
I do believe a number of members of the Bboard are aware of the tuning issues of YCL-221 student bass (and I've come across one that goes up to A-444). I also came across a YCL-621 pro model but it was badly out of adjustment, so I couldn't test it properly. Do the Yamaha pro models have the same tuning problems as with their student models?
Josh
Post Edited (2016-05-31 18:00)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-05-31 19:33
I wouldn't have thought so and I'd hope not considering they're at a pro level price.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-06-01 00:12
Hi Joshua,
The pro model Yamaha's don't have the same sharpness problem as the 221II. They do have the same tuning issues as most other pro-level basses (sharp long B natural, etc.), though.
Chris
Post Edited (2016-06-01 06:47)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2016-06-01 08:41
The 211 varies from people having no problems to some claiming it's almost a 1/4 tone sharp on parts of the range (nothing like the 442 or even 444 claims). Anyway the pro models don't have this issue for anyone I know who plays them.
It's mostly subjective, but IMO the pro Yamaha bass clarinets have a few issues.
The tone is not as "interesting" as Buffet or Selmer. They just feel a little bland, for a lack of better way to explain it.
They are worse ergonomically. The keys are just less comfortable (I prefer the new Buffet but Selmer is also pretty good).
What is not subjective and a significant down side is the design of the low keys. The mechanism is just much more spongy and makes it next to impossible to have a good compromise between the two opposite situations of pressing the lowest notes with one finger and adding a lower key to a higher fingering (e.g. playing Eb and adding low D vs. playing low G and moving to low D). The current Buffets and Selmers are much better in this respect.
I'd say the Yamaha is still a pretty good instrument and can be a good option if the price is good. I wouldn't recommend one for a price close to a Selmer or Buffet.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-06-01 18:05
The Uebel Emperior bass costs less than the Yamaha and is a near to exact copy of the Buffet Prestige low C bass as you can get, so that would be the one to go for out of all the others if you want value for money.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-06-02 16:01
Thanks for the info, Chris. I did some research and found a Uebel dealer in the Tuscaloosa, AL area. He said the Emperior sells for $8,885.
Has anyone owned/played/servieced one? Thoughts?
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2016-06-02 16:54
Has anyone tried getting a mouthpiece bore enlarged so they did not need to pull the neck out so far on the Yamaha?
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
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Author: CEC
Date: 2016-06-02 17:13
Hey Phil,
Josh Johnson is a big fan of the Uebel bass (and is an Uebel artist). He's also played the Ridenour for a few years. He writes about the Uebel Emperior in this article:
http://woodwindwonderland.blogspot.com/2014/08/clarinetfest2014-all-laughter-all-smears.html
You'll have to do a bit of mining because he writes about a lot of other stuff in the article. I'm sure he'd be willing to answer questions.
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-06-02 17:50
I tried an Uebel bass at Dawkes a few months ago and it played very nicely - I didn't have a Buffet to compare it to but it played as easily and predictably as my Buffet bass from what I could tell.
Also another member on here ('tictactux') owns one and he did a direct comparison with a bandmember's Bufffet (they swapped them) and they too couldn't find much difference between them playing or tone-wise.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2016-06-02 18:52
Thanks, Chris, both of you! Chris, CEC, I've read Josh's take on the Ridenour before and had forgotten what a great writer his is. He's a hoot! Thanks for bringing him to my attention again. I'm now following his blog. You doing okay?
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-04-16 07:02
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ODjzYEQUkno https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=obhfITnvlA8 This is me playing a Yamaha 622 II. Posted cause when I bought mine July 2016 info was hard to find on these.
Post Edited (2017-04-16 07:04)
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-04-18 11:16
I recently spoke with John Yeh and he said since they (Yamaha) have finished, at least for the moment, focusing on their Bb, A and Eb that they are now going to redo the professional model bass. Yamaha realizes that their present model is not competitive with Buffet and Selmer. And I'm sure it will be cheaper than those two brands.
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-04-18 19:05
Are they redesigning from scratch or copying selmer again? Current model based on selmer 33.
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Author: thereallukasj
Date: 2017-04-19 05:10
I have tried the low c 622 ii and its intonation is very nice. It also has some of the most stable sound in a bass clarinet that can be bought and have a bright sound. The Selmers are very free blowing and are very pleasant to play with a darker sound. The Buffets are sort of a cross between the two but more clarinet-like and less bass clarinet-like in their feel. Personally I reccomend a NEW Kessler and Sons 2nd gen low c bass. Having played a Low c Buffet, Yamaha, and Selmer I can say the best value and honestly the best feel of an instrument is the Kessler. With a price around $2000 it plays far superior to a ridenour, tempest, or even the first gen kessler bass and on par with other pro models. I liked how the yamaha felt quite well, if you are dead set on one. Any of the yamahas, selmers, or a new kessler have my reccomendation. (My point is, theres a reason you can find used pro model Buffets on ebay for saleš)
Musically yours,
Lukas
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-04-19 19:13
Thank you for the kind words on Yamaha. I bought my 622 in July of 2016. Only complaint is that I wish it had a bigger sound. I'm using a Fobes nova. I may upgrade to the blue rubber Fobes 10K.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-04-20 01:40
Yamaha is starting from scratch for their new professional bass. The thing that I really like about Yamaha is their willingness to get input from players and actually implement changes in their various clarinets. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this instrument will be mentioned alongside Buffet and Selmer as the best pro models out there. Sorry, but I don't know what the timetable for their release will be.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2017-04-21 06:29
When I saw RLarm's post about Yamaha starting from scratch with their pro basses I dropped Yamaha USA an email asking for information.
Part of their reply was: "At this time we are neither confirming or denying any information regarding our instrument development. We really do appreciate your interest, though, and I can say that if any news were to be announced about a new model or upgraded model that you could find that information on our website."
Personally I think the reply is a bit snarky... I've been involved in customer service for a long time and I certainly wouldn't have replied like this. No attempt to convert me into a sale nor offer to keep me informed of future developments. If I were in the market for a bass clarinet, I'd be looking elsewhere, for sure.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-04-21 07:25
Do I have very thick skin because I didn't interpret Yamaha's statement as being "snarky." I see it more as not wanting to show their hand too early. I trust the friend who told me they are starting from scratch. If you don't want to be notified I certainly would take your place in line. I'm.always interested in new models from various brands. Some stand the test of time while others sink faster than the Titanic. Tucker, I don't want you to take these comments in a negative way. They clearly know that the serious bass players are not at all happy with their current top of the line bass. Check out Clark Fobes' wonderful article in the Clarinet magazine where he compares Buffet, Selmer and Yamaha.
Selmer Series 33 and Privilege; Fobes Ron Reuben
P.S.:It probably will appear in Japan and Europe before it arrives in the US. In 2006 I picked up a Selmer brochure in Tokyo's Yamaha store, in the Ginza district. It showed the Selmer Privilege bass and this was years before it appeared in the US. I also got a Yamaha brochure which showed a bunch of attractive clarinet cases. They too were not available in the US and I think have only become available in the US since the CSVR came out. A big name retailer also told me that we always get the newer products last! Go figure that. In 2004 I was able to visit a Tokyo High School and I wondered what kind of ligatures the clarinetists were playing. They were Ishimoris.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2017-04-21 15:53
RLarm, it wasn't a question about having a thin skin or not. My feelings weren't hurt nor was I offended. I just think it was a poor choice of words for a reply to a potential customer. I would have said something like, "At this time we have no information regarding the development of bass clarinets. We would be happy to add you to our mailing list to keep you informed....". etc etc.
Last year when I was in the market for a bass, I wanted to buy either a used Buffet 1193 or preferably a Selmer 67 for under 10K. I couldn't find one in the condition I wanted. I looked at the Yamaha 622II which I found very uninspiring. I bought a Uebel Emperior which I'm totally satisfied with, but I still like to hear about advancements and new developments.
I guess I was just disappointed in the reply I got from Yamaha and it certainly wouldn't inspire me to pursue their products if I were in the market for a new horn.
Post Edited (2017-04-22 01:21)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-04-22 07:20
With the exception of the usual corporate "neither confirm or deny" I liked their answer. The non-"salesmany" response of not spamming you will advertisement or telling you whatever they make is the greatest thing that anyone has ever seen is actually nice. The "salesmany" reply that you seem to prefer would be more of a turn off...
Post Edited (2017-04-26 11:16)
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2017-04-22 07:42
Clarnibass, I can see that point of view too. The funny thing is I've now received 3 emails from Yamaha since I made my inquiry asking me to take a survey which then re-directs me to their sales page. I guess their sales approach is more through the back door.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-04-23 01:51
Seeing what Yamaha has done with the constant evolution of their pro model horns for all of their wind instruments I would say it is a safe bet that their new model bass clarinet will be very competitive with Buffet and Selmer. I don't pay much attention to company replies and the excessive hyperbole when a new instrument comes out. The true test is if it sells and continues to be manufactured by that company. Tucker, I highly doubt that Buffet or Selmer would have asked you take part in a survey. Yamaha will listen and observe players comments regarding their product. Tucker, I think you would be making a horrible mistake if you didn't try any future Yamaha clarinets just because of a reply that you received from them. Would Buffet and Selmer have even responded to your inquiry? The individual who told me that they are starting from scratch is one of the most highly regarded clarinetists in the world. I think I would trust what he had to say.
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Author: tucker ★2017
Date: 2017-04-23 02:23
RLarm.... I totally agree with you. I like Yamaha products. I own a Yamaha piano, outboard motor, etc etc. Great products.
I didn't get into the entire story earlier, but when I heard they were possibly coming out with a new bass, I informed a band mate of mine. She's in the market for a professional bass. I told her I'd make some inquiries (including on this site) to see if we could get any information regarding a time frame.
Yes, Yamaha did reply, in what I perceived to be a snarky reply (just my opinion). If they had said something like: We plan on coming out with a new bass in the next 12, 24, or whatever, my friend could make a determination if she wanted to wait. She's chosen to try the Buffet/Selmer/Uebel horns and not wait for Yamaha. Like me, she doesn't care for the 622II. If money were no object, I would have purchased a Selmer. Love them. I wound up buying a new Uebel because of the price point/intonation/quality and warranty. I'm extremely pleased with it.
Yamaha makes fine products, no doubt. On that we can agree.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-04-23 17:28
Whenever Yamaha have launched a new model, they often did so without building up the suspense beforehand, so they'd launch a new instrument that has been tested before being offered to the public. I've also heard their prototype models leading up to the final production model are destroyed unless someone manages to keep hold of one.
So it's in any company's best interests to keep product development a closely guarded secret and then go public once they're pleased with their new product once it's been finalised.
Even so, changes will be made here and there once feedback from players and repairers gets back as there's no such thing as a perfect instrument and one that suits everyone. Changes are usually made going on feedback made by players with more influence - sometimes for the worst as in the Selmer 10G thumbrest.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-04-24 01:41
I subscribed to clarinet international. I finally got to read Clark Fobes seot 2014 clarinet magazine article on the Yamaha, Selmer and Buffet bass clarinets. Clark loved the Yamaha except for the low D C# and low C set up and that it was too sharp. I don't find it to be sharp. I agree with Clark that it plays over the octave beak well and the altissimo responds well. As I am primarily a sax player I find the 622 II easy to play.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2017-04-25 00:30
What a sax player looks for in a bass clarinet, and what a classically-trained bass clarinet specialist looks for in a bass clarinet, can be very different. I straddle both worlds so have some feel for this dichotomy.
For someone who makes a living playing bass clarinet, I would suspect that being "easy to play" is low on the priority list.
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Author: Shaun L
Date: 2017-04-25 07:15
David, as someone who also straddles the line quite a bit (College juries performed on bass clarinet, Band, Orchestra, Musicals, and occasionally pulling it out during a jazz or funk set), I completely agree with you. I've been lucky enough to play enough different bass clarinets to know almost exactly what I want from one when I can purchase my own.
I'm very excited about some new contenders really showing up in the professional bass clarinet world. I'm excited about a scratch Yamaha because before this latest generation of professional soprano clarinets, I thought they always lacked in sound. Just too thin to even think about playing one in an orchestra or a pit gig. It wouldn't cut. The 622 I got to try also suffered from the same plague. I felt shrill compared to my 1193 and I was even looking for a brighter sound than the Buffet gives me. Their new professional clarinets changed my mind about their sopranos and I hope their new bass changes my mind too.
On another note, I believe we should be expecting a Backun entry to the bass clarinet market sometime in the next couple of years, hopefully. The only information that I've gotten about a Backun bass clarinet is that their first model will likely be their top shelf bass and priced accordingly. Could take a car loan to get one!
Backun Protege Coco/Gold
Selmer S10A
D'Addario X0
MoBa barrel
Buffet 1193 C
Vandoren B44
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2017-04-25 20:05
Hi,
I'm with Phil in that I have a lot of great Yamaha products (CS Custom clarinet, Yamaha YTS 475 tenor, a surround sound system with sub-woofer, etc.). But the Yamaha 621 bass I played was really a disappointment to my current bass clarinets (Selmer Model 32 and a Ridenour 925e). While the intonation on the 621 was excellent, there was no "soul" to the instrument.
My Selmer and 925e are a good bit different; the Model 32 has a big, bold sound when pushed but the 925e has better intonation throughout the entire 3 octave + range. Now if Yamaha can somehow combine the best qualities of these two instruments they would have a winner IMHO. I do a lot of wind band work an favor the Selmer but it is nice to have the 925e as a backup.
HRL
PS I use my Grabner CX BB 90 mouthpiece with both instrument.
Post Edited (2017-04-25 20:06)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2017-04-26 02:40
Quote:
I totally agree with you. I like Yamaha products. I own a Yamaha piano, outboard motor, etc etc.
What key is the outboard motor? ;-)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-04-26 11:25
>> What key is the outboard motor? <<
Probably a regular square or a woodruff.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-11-07 12:24
Right - I just had a YCL-622II bass come in for some regulation work.
Regulating the lower joint isn't a particularly easy feat on the best low C basses and this one wasn't an exception to the rule. With any instruments you have a certain amount of torsion in the long key rods and this increases as their lengths increase. So you have to work with that torsion instead of being absolutely text book, so set the lower joint keys up so they close with progressively lighter and lighter pressure as you get lower down the instrument to be certain the pads higher up are closing. That will ensure it'll work when you slur from low G to low C with just the thumb key.
I then compared how both the Yamaha and my Buffet compare in a play test. The Yamaha plays very well, but the keywork took me some time to get used to as it feels different under the fingers compared to my Buffet - not in a bad way, just different, but still positive.
Then I compared the sound of both. I once heard from someone that they didn't go for a Buffet bass as they find them rather 'vanilla'. That same person bought a Yamaha low C bass. Now if the Buffet Prestige is considered to be 'vanilla', then the Yamaha 622II is just plain - it had a very even and full tone, but none of the 'oomph' I can get with my Buffet. I even heard the Buffet Prerstige being labelled as 'gutless' - I don't know if these comments have been made with all the various low C models all in the same room, but I find them misguided. By comparison I'd say the Yamaha is definitely the gutless one.
So in summary, the Yamaha YCL-622II hasn't got much 'oomph' - there are far better low C basses out there. Let's hope that with Yamaha's redesign of their low C basses has 'oomph' and also a front low D key as that will make it a strong contender in the pro level low C bass market.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-11-07 20:38
>> Regulating the lower joint isn't a particularly easy feat on the best low C basses and this one wasn't an exception to the rule. <<
The Yamaha is much worse in that the low D key closes upper keys by only closing the Eb with one linkage arm at the key end. It's just a bad design.
It's impossible to have Eb and above close by pressing only D or lower with a light touch and also having a good feel for D (or lower) when adding it to Eb. It's caused by the flex in the metal itself and the bad design, nothing that can be regulated i.e. the best compromise is much worse than Buffet or Selmer models, which have linkages at both ends (or even throughout the length).
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-11-07 22:17
When Ed Palanker played my 622 II when I visited him during the summer, it had soul. I was blown away at how good it sounded in Edās hands.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2017-11-10 00:24
Way back in a galaxy far away, I had the pleasure of doing the Mendelssohn concert Piece no.2 with Jean Gould and the U.S. Army Field Band. She was playing a Yamaha 622 on this. I think she played the living **** out it. She was not the bass clarinetist in the band so she picked it up on the tune right before this and walks out and nails it. I think this was a performance at some high altitude venue as I remember.
When I retired from the Army Field Band I bought a Buffet Prestige Bass, I think ultimately Jean sold her Yamaha and bought a Prestige too. If Yamaha does upgrade their bass and it plays anywhere like the CSVR or SEVR clarinets that I presently play I will buy one in a heart beat! But I have to admit Jean got the absolutely perfect sound on this piece it had a Basset horn quality in the high register that I just loved hearing. I remember hearing an interview with Ginger Rogers, She was asked why she never got the attention that Fred Astaire received. She replied, " I don't know, I did everything he did backwards and in heels". That's what playing a bass clarinet on this piece is. You have to have chops to spare to sound as good as the person playing on Bb clarinet, and she does!
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_011&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_011&hspart=iry&p=Tom+Puwalski+jean+Gould+on+you+tube#id=1&vid=acae33070b5e72c18c9d72ec05ed1794&action=click
Tom Puwalski Yamaha and D'Addario performing artist former principal clarinetist of the U.S. Army Field Band
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-11-10 18:57
Thanks very much for posting that Tom, you are a phenomenal musician. I donāt believe the current Yamaha basses are as bad as they are made out to be. The player and mouthpiece make up the lions share of the sound. And itās the player that puts āsoulā into the instrument. Now granted a genuinely poor instrument can become the lions share of the sound in a negative way.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-11-11 13:13
One thing I do like about the Yamaha bass is the metal sleeved lower joint socket. I haven't seen that on any other bass.
I'm not saying the Yamaha bass is a bad player, it's just a far more restrained instrument compared to my Buffet. It's a relative newcomer to the market compared to the other big name makers as Yamaha only started making low C basses thirty years ago (and they started making basses to low Eb five years before that).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2017-11-11 16:03
Attachment: IMG_0252.JPG (91k)
Attachment: IMG_0258.JPG (119k)
Chris P,
My new Selmer Privilege Model 65 has a metal sleeved lower joint socket. Also, there is a stop/lock screw on the bottom of the upper section. See the attached.
The assembly as well as the adjustable thumb rest is very solid.
HRL
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2017-11-12 09:23
Re the metal socket, as far as I remember the Selmer Privilege (65/67) has always been made this way, since it came out over a decade ago.
>> One thing I do like about the Yamaha bass is the metal sleeved lower joint socket. <<
When did they start doing that? I just had one and was told the metal socket was a modification but they could have been wrong. Were they always like that since they started making them? Or a change with the II model? Or...?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-11-12 11:26
I've never seen a Privilege bass in pieces - I've only tried a fully assembled one, so didn't get the chance to see the lined socket.
Maybe it's a new thing on Yamaha basses too - the 622II bass I saw wasn't all that old. But well worth the effort lining the socket as the middle tenon and socket on basses isn't the most stable of things, hence the split/adjustable socket ring seen on most pro level basses so they can be eased off by backing off the screw if the joints bind up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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The Clarinet Pages
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