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Author: GenEric
Date: 2017-04-19 07:42
Does anyone have any experience with either clarinet? Looking for something around the $2000 line. Any recommendations?
Post Edited (2017-04-19 09:05)
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Author: thereallukasj
Date: 2017-04-19 09:11
Backun has made some very nice changes to the clarinet in general. I have not played the Protoge specifically but it is a very will liked instrument by people. Backun instruments are really starting to pick up in popularity as of late and so you will find more people around that have/do play this instrument but not as many as people who play an r13 or something along those lines. Cannot go wrong with yamaha clarinets they are extremely free blowing (unlike their bass clarinet lol) and are known for their excellent intonation. My point in all this is, both are grand instruments and you cant go wrong with either. However if i had to deal with customer service for a return, id rather deal with morrie 😊
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-04-19 17:25
I've only played one Protege and, IMHO it was terrible ... apparently defective in some way, although the pads and adjustments seemed tight. Not characteristic of Backun at all ... the bore appeared to be damaged (vandalized) by unknown hands.
Yamaha 650 is very good ... I have one. However, I am ditching my wooden instruments ... I play in terrible conditions, often.
Yamaha CSVR is excellent ... you can find store demo clarinets for about $2500.
Backun Alpha and Beta are fine. Bodies machined in Canada and keys done in Asia (I think).
The best value, no fuss, no muss clarinets, IMHO would be the Ridenour Lyrique 576 (less than $1000) and the Ridenour Lyrique Libertas (less than $1800). In tune, durable, warm and responsive. I have the Libertas and a model similar to the 576 ...
I've also been playing a new R13 Greenline lately ... surprisingly good. More of a challenge to play than the Ridenour clarinets, but also having some small rewards. You might be able to find a used greenline for under $2000. I think the Buffet composite clarinets have less variability and also (if you don't break them) more stable and less of a crap shoot for a used instrument. Also, composite clarinets lend themselves to cork pads on the top joint with more success than the entirely wood instrument, due to cleaner/level tone holes.
Tom
Post Edited (2017-04-19 17:28)
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-04-19 17:29
I play on a Yamaha 650. Great intonation! http://www.clarinetpages.net/wooden-clarinets/yamaha/yamaha-ycl-650 http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Clarinets/Yamaha_YCL650.htm
Post Edited (2017-04-19 17:30)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-04-19 20:20
I've played the Backun's and own the Yamaha's CSVR series. By far I would go with the Yamaha's.
The reasons are many. To keep it simple, pretty much every Yamaha you play out of the case will play great. No leaks, they tune sooo well, no dead notes, even the Buffet R13's have dead notes, so you have to have them undercut by a repairman, and the tone is excellent. Yamaha already has done this.
So this is why a lot of pros can go buy a Yamaha and play in in a symphony that very same day.
If any of you are going to the ClarinetFest stop by my booth, I will play the Yamaha's and show off their good sound. I may be able to get you a huge discount from Yamaha at this show. Come prepared to buy...
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-04-21 07:04)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-04-19 23:42
Yamaha rocks, no doubt! Consistent construction, cutting edge design, and much better fit and finish than the competition. I would like to see the CSVR in a composite of some sort ... for my outdoor work. I'd get one today ...
Despite my R13 greenline being set up well by the technician, I am still tweaking pad heights, ancillary equipment, etc to fix some issues. Buffets do have a distinct sound, albeit inconsistent throughout the range ... a lot of good notes and a few that are out of character.
Tom
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Author: Toolaholic
Date: 2017-04-20 00:13
I love my yamahas. I have a 650 soprano clarinet , a 20 plastic soprano, a 221 II plastic bass, and the love it or hate it 622 II low C bass. I choose Yamaha because of the inconsistency of buffet and selmer. I her a lot of saxes in my household. Hands down the Japanese Yanagisawas have the best fit and finish. So I went Japanese for clarinets.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-04-21 01:46
I agree with you 100% Bob. I just purchased a Yamaha CSVR along with a student. Both of our horns played great right out of the box. That is definitely not the case with almost all Buffets. It's hand down better than a set of Toscas that I bought eight years ago. I've hardly played them because I felt the set was a complete DUD. I'm sure there are posters who will appalled by my comments and whose Toscas play far better than mine. Also, both brands play better with the Zoom barrel. The Toscas went from mediocre to good immediately. It seemed to make both horns much "livelier." As far as the Backuns go, I cannot comment on them I haven't played on one. My local dealer has refused to bring in any of the Backuns. There is a back story to that.I'll leave it at that.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-04-21 08:23
Before buying the Yamaha's I did test a lot of horns. One thing I knew for sure I was upset with Buffet. So I did test horns for a good 7 to 9 months. Even the Tosca. When I was asked by Yamaha to come in and try their horns at the California plant I was in a state of shock. The testing room was pretty much like sitting on the stage of Severance Hall in Detroit. Yes I've played there. Sound engineers built it. There wasn't a square point anywhere in the room. You could hear perfectly. Every clarinet I tested, not just the CSVR's was so much fun and every horn played so perfectly. The A clarinets are without hesitation the finest A clarinets to be made. They feel like a Bb. Free blowing, notes perfectly in tune on all of their horns. The CSG111 - German horns were so great. A straight bore. But they cost more. They can come gold plated.
The question wasn't asked, however I did very much like the Selmer Signature clarinets. The Selmer Recital or Recitalist, can't recall the exact name, was too dark. Reminds me of the Backun's. Very dense and heavy wood.
If Yamaha wasn't in the picture I would have still found a way to buy the Selmer Signature before the Backun horns because the sound carries so well.
I've said this before, we all have to be REALLY careful with the definition of "DARK" and not get confused with "DEAD."
I prefer using the word "WARM." The German players in the past have always had that warmer sound compared to the French sound. But now we are stuck in a weird position of WARM and DEAD.
So when picking out a horn we now have to watch out for dead, dark, horns, as well as dead, dark, mouthpieces. It is so confusing. You go to test a horn and you are in a music store with a room that you've never been in before. I promise you your chances of finding a really great Buffet are zero to slim. But you will walk out with a great Yamaha. 99 percent chance or higher!
Up close our ears play tricks on us. We sometimes think that amazing dark sound up close while practicing is that wonderful sound we've been looking for for all of our life, however in a hall you can't be heard in the 4th seat of symphony hall. Yes this is over exaggerated, but I kind of have to make a point.
I want to bring back that Marcellus and Harold Wright sound. We have Sabine Meyer. She has it and there are some others of course. But in general the clarinets and mouthpieces are going way too dark. Not WARM.
I was with Steve Barta this week having lunch, from the Baltimore Symphony, retired 9 months ago. We feel the same way. There are some players with very nice sounds, but these sounds are being taken over by what I've been talking about.
The clarinet sound is a bit off right now, but I'm not panicking. We all have to think all of the time about Marcellus and Wright. Listen often to how they filled the halls. But up close their reeds were sometimes a shade buzzy. The sound was still extremely beautiful, but not dark and dead. Slightly favoring the French sound for sure.
The Yamaha's are really good. The Selmer Signatures are also on track.
So I have issues with pretty much every mouthpiece on the market right now. Here is something interesting. The German Zinner mouthpieces are actually pretty good! But the French ones are a waist of money. (In general) The bores are too small and the baffles/ chambers are way too deep so we have dead notes on the clarinets and the horns are not live sounding. I can write forever about mouthpieces and the larger bores on horns, but I need to stop. The M Series Vandoren's play flat and are too long. The cost of custom mouthpieces is just wrong. The old mouthpieces from the 1940's through the late 1960's are still great. Meaning the Chedeville's and some of the Kaspar's from Chicago and Cicero. Frank Kaspar bought a lot of mouthpieces from the Chedeville company. These are good. I see on ebay old Selmer mouthpieces and other brands saying these are Chedeville mouthpieces. They aren't.
If we want that Marcellus, Wright, and Gennusa, sound go with the Yamaha's and search for great vintage mouthpieces. But don't spend more than $300. Avoid the Kaspars from Ann Arbor as they are a tad bright, but they can be adjusted if you get a really good deal. $150 or so.
Then you need that adjustment period. To train your ears to hear WARM instead of DARK.
I think in a few years the manufacturers of clarinets and mouthpieces will catch on to that temporarily lost sound and bring it back.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: GenEric
Date: 2017-04-21 09:30
Wow thanks for the really detailed reply. I'm really interested in buying a Yamaha 650, csvr or sev and going with your advice and find a vintage mouthpiece to go along with it. I just have a question. Where exactly is the Yamaha Plant? I actually heard lots of things there. My old private teacher actually is affiliated with Yamaha in some way ( I forgot), and he actually hand picked a YCL 400 for me which was pretty nice.
Before I couldn't afford any more lessons, he told me to go to the Yamaha factory some day and try out professional clarinets. I live in California and I was hoping to visit this "factory" some day. I don't exactly know what the address is or what the building even looks like. Could I ask you where it is and if there is a website for it or any rules before you go? I've heavily considering going there.
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Author: donald
Date: 2017-04-21 11:35
In reccent years many students here in NZ played the various Backun student/intermediate clarinets and Leblanc Bliss etc. I've had to deal with way more problems with these than Yamaha or Buffet in the same price range.
- Keys bending easily
- Plating deteriorating after only a couple of years
- Wood swelling.
These are things that can happen to ANY clarinet, but I've noticed it with a very high number of the Backun horns (at least at the student/intermediate level). At least one Backun professional level horn I've played had problems with the keywork, but that DID have very nice acoustical design. The student horns do play nicely, but to be honest over the last decade they've been around in various models they've statistically been more problematic than other brands.
Yamaha? I grew up with these and went to buffet late in the day to get "that sound", I've had lots of problems since then and sometimes wonder WHY I did that?????
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-04-22 07:03
There are several Yamaha plants. I go to the one here in California. Near Disneyland
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-04-22 07:25
Bob, I loved reading your long discourse. The tone quality has definitely changed. It seems like there is a generic covered and dead tone that permeates the clarinet world. Is it partly because of YouTube? I think I should start a post discussing the change in many, but not all German players tone quality.I know of few if any players that play with that sweet tone that Bud Wright played with and that ring and perfect execution that Marcellus displayed. It would be interesting if those of us who play Yamahas could spend an entire day with Tomoji. My guess is that it would be like Marcellus sitting down with Moennig. Sorry for shanghaiing the post! Yes, if you have to pick an instrument without playing it beforehand go with the Yamaha. And their prices are quite reasonable.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-04-22 23:02
RLarm
Yes it does concern me about the DEAD sound. But clarinet players are SMART. I strongly believe this is just a setback. This was caused by the manufactures building clarinets with bigger bores and mouthpiece makers and even refacers going the wrong way. We as players love that WARM sounds not the DEAD sound.
Players want the 1960's vintage era Buffet clarinet sound. Well Yamaha is really close is some ways if not dead on with the CSG111's, the German horns, but these old Buffet 1960s had their issues. They are surely overrated. Finding a great 1960's horn was and is pretty hard, so I really like how close the CSVR's are. In so many ways they are better than the Buffets from that era. The Yamaha pro line upper registers are just so clean, and the horns are so in tune. For example, playing the Copland Concerto scares me on the Buffets, regardless of the year. The upper register notes can bring fear into me. Are you gonna hit the high F or will that dang F turn into an A? On the Yamaha's I can attack the notes without fear. Same with the Selmer Signatures. It's not the mouthpiece nor the reed, this is the instruments design flaws.
So you don't have to spend $19,000 to find that sound and be very disappointed. The $19,500 set of horns do not have this WARM sound. They are dead. Yamaha has it. You have to find the right mouthpiece to match the Yamaha horn. These $19,000 bores are too big, thus DEAD... You can buy a set of Yamaha's at the ClarinetFest from about $5000. This is a set, maybe less? I'm not sure. Depends of what horn or set of horns you buy. You can go to the ClarinetFest, go to Disneyworld for a week, have breakfast in bed for 2 weeks, eat steak dinners for a year, buy a 5 year supply of Steuer reeds, buy 5 Chedeville mouthpieces, and still have money left over, because you didn't buy those crappy $19,000 horns or the Tosca horns and you will sound so much better. You may even have enough money let over to go to next years ClarinetFest in Europe. You were smart and didn't fall into the DEAD ZONE trap!
The worst mouthpieces to buy for these horns are the Vandoren M series and the Zinner's. You want to fill the halls with rich warm sounds. Go test out horns and you will agree with me. Then soon Buffet and Backun will realize we all know what we want and reality will set in and they will realize they need to go back to the drawing board. At the same time Yamaha keeps getting better and better, very soon to perhaps greatness? The best clarinets ever made? Each one will be perfect? Time will tell. They sparked my interest! Buffet can't even seal a pad anymore. EVERY new Buffet horn leaks and plays out of tune. Why do we put up with this?
I've said enough...
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-04-23 05:31)
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Author: Geronimo
Date: 2017-04-24 22:35
I want to say last year I went to a well established music shop with the the intention of trying out what clarinets they had. I remember specifically comparing the Backun and the yamaha 650. I'd go for the yamaha. The Backun instrument felt nice but was not as even or as in tune as the 650 (and I want to say the 650 was lower in cost).
If you are interested in the cs line, the new CSVR is phenomenal. Quality craftsmanship and results comparable to an instruments that cost 2-3K more.
If you want to try out something besides those two give the Selmer presence and prologue a test drive.
best of luck!
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Author: donald
Date: 2017-04-26 07:23
Since I made the post above Morrie Backun emailed me directly to tell me how the clarinets I had experienced weren't produced by him (despite being supplied from US sources), or something like that. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I accidentally deleted the email before reading it properly- one of the problems with getting emails on your phone is that you tend to START reading them, before realising that you won't have time to finish as you on the bus/waiting for something etc.... Thus your in box tends to have half read or hastily read emails. A disadvantage of touch screen phones is that the delete button is right next to the "back" button. Sorry Morrie, however you can feel free to write whatever you had to say to me here on this forum. I'd prefer that to be honest.
dn
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