 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-03-29 21:07
The Cleveland Orchestra still seems to be searching for a Principal clarinet or has this job been filled. I am fed up with this Acting Princ. position nonsense..it makes no sense with all of the resources large orchestras have they cannot find a Principal Clarinet...yiikes
Are they looking for god?
This is surely a sign there is something very wrong with this industry..
As to Ben Lulich he is gone from what I heard. Why.?.
he is a very fine artist or maybe he just was not happy.
The attrition rate in top orchestras is getting wild.
David Dow
Post Edited (2017-03-29 21:09)
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-03-30 05:20
Considering that Frank Cohen and the current music director has significant differences, I think they are looking for someone very specific in both style of clarinet playing and musicianship.
I think it was the Principal Trombone position in Cleveland that went through something like 6-8 different auditions before someone was appointed. The clarinet chair could go through something similar.
From what I have heard, Ben (who properly won the audition) was not awarded tenure and returned to Seattle where he was. I think one of Yehuda Gilad's students has been currently playing with Cleveland. It would not surprise me if they just hired him as they hired the new Bass clarinetist.
I agree with the fact that there are many great clarinetists capable of filling the chair but I do think an orchestra like Cleveland has the luxury of being very picky.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2017-03-30 18:17
Cripes, not even virtuoso clarinetists can get symphony gigs nowadays. Thank [insert deity of your choice] I didn't go into music as a career.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-03-30 18:46
Kind of sucks how these great players can handle the positions very well, but politics are often the key factors for replacements. This happened to me more than once, so wherever you go, regardless of how good you are, sometimes it doesn't matter. There is always trouble right around the corner, even if you keep your mouth shut, play the notes, someone will cause some trouble.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-03-30 20:51
While I agree with everyone's sentiments, I do think it's important to keep in mind that this is the Cleveland Orchestra we are talking about. The person filling the chair will shape how that orchestra is thought of for decades to come. I don't think anyone is saying that people are not capable of doing the job, they just need to find a unique musician who can play in the style of that specific wind section.
Tenure is a tricky thing for principal players. In many CBAs, the final decision is in the hands of the music director. I've heard of situations in which the entire audition committee voted to give a player tenure only for the person to be denied by the music director. I've also heard of the exact opposite happening. Usually these things are purely professional decisions, although sometimes it does get personal. For example, I find this current story very interesting to follow:
http://www.ibj.com/articles/63062-musician-accuses-conductor-urbanski-iso-of-age-discrimination
I do think more orchestras should have auditions like the MET Orchestra does. They always hire someone and if they don't like them, they don't give them tenure but at least someone is given a chance.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2017-03-30 21:53
I've been a consultant for a long long time, and I've observed that organizations that can't seem to find the person they want are those who don't really know what they want, so they usually fish around until they get exhausted and pick a name out of a hat or they find an "authority" to make the choice for them.
This is particularly unfortunate in the music world because, while other organizations don't have "interim" employees, symphonies can do this because the pool is so large and the positions so few.
B.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2017-03-30 23:06
I disagree with echi85's contention that the principal clarinet position "shapes how the orchestra is thought of". I'd bet you that no more than a handful of the audience members for any give Cleveland concert even know who that person is, much less care. And NONE of them could tell one clarinetist from the other section members if blindfolded. The only things that matter to 99.99% of the audiences, I would bet, are what music the group is playing that night, and who the overpaid jet-sitting histrionic rock star on the podium happens to be.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2017-03-30 23:22
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> I disagree with echi85's contention that the principal clarinet
> position "shapes how the orchestra is thought of". I'd bet you
> that no more than a handful of the audience members for any
> give Cleveland concert even know who that person is, much less
> care. And NONE of them could tell one clarinetist from the
> other section members if blindfolded. The only things that
> matter to 99.99% of the audiences, I would bet, are what music
> the group is playing that night, and who the overpaid
> jet-sitting histrionic rock star on the podium happens to be.
Exactly right, Dave
The CONDUCTOR shapes the sound of the orchestra (Ormandy/Philadelphia, Solti/Chicago, etc...), not an individual principal ... especially clarinet.
With the overflowing pool of virtuoso clarinetists available (many with years of pro orchestra experience), if an orchestra can't find a satisfactory principal it just smells of pretentious snobbery.
...GBK
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-03-31 00:04
I think it is time to get this problem out in the open. Is the artistic director looking for the Cleveland to change their instrument over to German system or is the problem much more rooted in the way the group is being managed. I have heard Mr. Lulich play and he is a truly great player...a perfectionist and at the same time very flexible in all working situations. This musical chair stuff and then hiring after trying ..well if it was beer in store we got for free then we would be drunk.
No..something is vastly wrong with the way orchestras are being managed and how the resources on management side of things stack this game so to speak. Imagine in North America...a place where there are thousands of great players and then cherry picking the job. A blind audition done in 3 days used to be good enough..or is an image thing. Ie. Mr. J has a weight issue or maybe has a beard and does not appear corporate enough. This is part of the make up of marketing as well that goes into this..
I am also sure having played principal clarinet in an orchestra for years that one cannot go very long without being on some side so to speak. As player I did collective bargaining on behalf of the players ...so you imagine just how much management liked me after awhile.
I just don't understand...Welser Most is there to get the Most out of what he has!
As a teacher it is awfully hard to throw your best students to the gladiators!
David Dow
Post Edited (2017-03-31 00:06)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2017-03-31 00:05
I'm not going to weigh in on the current process for picking a principal clarinet in Cleveland (I don't have a horse in the race, and I'm not terribly worried about it)...but a couple of points:
1. The clarinet makes a substantial difference to the sound of the orchestra in Severance Hall. This doesn't really translate to recordings somehow, but Franklin Cohen's sound had a presence that filled out the wind section in a remarkable way, and is noticeably absent now. When you consider the outstanding history of principal clarinetists in Cleveland...it's quite a legacy to live up to.
2. Cleveland is a small, close-knit town, especially in terms of the arts community. The regular audience is quite knowledgeable, and many people do know and care about the players--they know their history too. Remember, Cleveland isn't like NYC or some other large metropolitan areas--there aren't any other arts organizations that have the same prestige. The orchestra is still a major point of pride for the whole community.
I'm probably biased, but because of the hall and the way the tradition of this orchestra has been maintained, I think it's a very special environment for the clarinet: almost an ideal orchestra, sound-wise, to play in. I think they can afford to be very selective. Remember, there was also a two or three year period of searching between the time Robert Marcellus retired and Franklin Cohen was given tenure. It's impossible to replace players like them. Patience.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-03-31 00:12
The trend is moving away from auditions...I really think none of it has to do with how close knit the Orchestra is..in fact to most clarinet players it would be a job..that is it..! You put in time you get paid..no this is baffling because the sound Marcellus got and Cohen got were diametrically very different.
I think you just can't base it on some conception of sound world inside the hall..the Audition should be done on stage maybe....
Tradition aside I just wonder how far from industry regulation regarding auditions this can go till it seems lop sided. Should not the orchestral players have some say maybe..or is that democratic?
I wonder if it has anything to do with playing
http://slippedisc.com/2016/02/principal-clarinet-how-i-left-the-cleveland-orchestra/
David Dow
Post Edited (2017-03-31 00:15)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2017-03-31 00:27
(Check out the whole video, if you haven't already. It's worth watching. But it doesn't really talk about the situation of leaving the orchestra).
"to most clarinet players it would be a job...that is it...!"
I know plenty of clarinetists who would see it as a little more than that (I'm speaking as a professional, btw). And my point wasn't that Marcellus and Cohen sound alike...but I have no desire to clarify further. I know a good rant thread when I see one. Carry on!
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2017-03-31 01:36
In the discussions about Marcellus and Cohen, I'm surprised nobody mentioned David Shifrin. If I'm not mistaken, he was in Cleveland for only a few years before leaving for the University of Michigan. I heard him once in Ann Arbor and enjoyed his playing. Wouldn't it also be correct to say that his sound was a bit different from that of Marcellus, the man he replaced?
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-03-31 02:18
I suspect a lot of us could name five brilliant players that could step into Cleveland and do a fantastic job. If they're having this much trouble in finding a player, the problem has to lie with them (or the politics) over the actual quality of any given player.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2017-03-31 03:17
I was told a story by a friend and colleague of David Shifrin when he took over for Marcellus. During a rehearsal he used a touch of vibrato. One of the old-timers in front of him turned around and said something to the effect of, "Sonny boy. We don't do that here." Replacing a great player who played one way with a great player who plays in a different style can be very traumatic for the successor. Look at what has happened in Chicago after Herseth retired and in New York after Drucker retired. From all the stories I've heard and hearing his playing on their televised concerts, Mark Nuccio is another player who was left in limbo. The woodwind section loved him but they continued to string him along with the interim tag. They also did that for bass clarinet. Maybe Boston is a rare bird. They hired Hudgins and he has been there ever since. How many members of the audience are thinking I don't like the clarinetist because he sounds a little too bright? His staccato is too short? His/her tone is not focused enough? The answer is obvious - very, very few. This is all very sad.
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-03-31 05:08
In response to David Spiegelthal,
It's an interesting comment. I believe the question you are asking is if audiences are really that sensitive towards differences in wind timbre. I would like to believe that most people who go to concerts are not one-timers, that they go frequently and listen to a variety of different orchestras. I would think that anyone who spends a few hours a week listening to an orchestra can hear a tonal difference between players of the same instrument and appreciate their individuality.
To say that an orchestra like Cleveland should pick a clarinetist that will please most audiences is to cheapen the artistic experience in my opinion. I think there's a reason why it's considered a world-class orchestra and it's not just because of how much they pay their musicians. Just because it's good enough for us doesn't mean it's good enough for them.
To GBK,
In many ways, I agree with you. The conductor shapes the sound of the orchestra primarily by who he/she hires. I don't think there is a guest conductor in the world who goes to the UK expecting it to sound like a german or american orchestra. A conductor can uniquely balance the sound but they cannot change the actual timbre of the wind section.
It would be hard for me to imagine an Ormandy recording with anyone other than Gigliotti playing clarinet or John de Lancie on oboe for that matter. From stories I have heard, Ormandy really didn't care for Gigliotti's sound but that was what he had and it certainly shaped how Ormandy is remembered. I think you can make the same argument with Szell/Marcellus/Mack and Solti/Combs/Still.
Many orchestras nowadays are afraid of losing their identity. The wind and brass sections are major components of that. For example, the Boston Symphony wind section is very french leaning. I don't think they would hire a principal player who was not of a similar tradition even if they played a perfect audition.
I will point to this following blog post and the second bassoon audition a few years ago. I find the passage about how people played the Mozart Concerto illuminating as I know there are orchestras that would prefer that kind of extroverted playing.
http://steesbassoon.blogspot.com/2012/01/second-bassoon-audition.html
It's easy to point to snobbery and personal issues but I really don't think it's completely one sided. Perhaps elements of my argument and the opposition are equally responsible for this problem.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-03-31 07:15
I carefully read everyone's comments. They are kind of exciting. Exciting in the sense that we are probably seeing a change and everyone is thinking the same way and asking amazing questions.
Eddie Palanker can surely help me out here. Hello my friend! He was with the orchestra for 50 something years. 57? He saw everything happen. The good, bad, and ugly. He sat next to Gennusa, Steve Barta and a lot of others. Eddie is an amazing man. He played under countless conductors. This is where I'm heading...
But lets take a look at a few orchestras just for a second and for the fun of it. I believe the Baltimore Sym had or still has a principal flute opening for 2 or 3 years? Were they being picky? I'm not sure, because the symphony was/is suffering. A lot or all of the members took pay cuts. Some of the pay cuts were huge, 1/2 their salaries in some cases? When Steve Barta left his position was filled for only one year. This to me is just wrong. I'm meeting with Steve for dinner next week so I'm gonna ask him what the latest is.
The San Diego Sym also suffered and I'm not completely sure what happened, but I think, remember these words "I think," the members of the orchestra took over to save the symphony. About 25 years ago I was in the final 4 for a clarinet position and the following year the orchestra was broke. Glad I didn't win. Such pressure. The winner deserved it by the way. No politics. Hidden screen so the people had no idea who was performing. The 3 of us were outplayed, but about 300 auditioned. A hard week.
Lets look at Chicago. Well this is kind of fun! We have John Yeh who has been with the orchestra for 40 years, We have Greg Smith also, so politics may not be a huge concern. I've played at this hall! It is hard to fill your sound to the back of the hall. (Orchestra Hall) Same with the Kennedy Center. That hall, the Kennedy Center is also kind of hard to play in. It's worse now after being redesigned.
So I'm very interested in everyone's comments. Maybe it is true that the conductors are looking for the right woodwind sections. Not just the solo players.
Severance Hall where Marcellus played is now so different. Totally redesigned. In my opinion for the worse. As for Shifrin, he played great, I saw a few of the concerts in the old hall. The conductor was NOT the great Szell. (Lorin Maazel) So we can't put too much weight on how David sounded. He was asked to play a different way. For example the orchestra played Rhapsody in Blue. The clarinet solo is usually somewhat short. The Gliss. at the beginning is maybe 8 to 10 seconds. The conductor asked David to play it very long. I think it was about 30 plus seconds. You can find it on youtube probably. Szell surely wouldn't have done this. Lets face it Shifrin may have been a match under Szell, but Maazel was surely totally different...
So I'm agreeing with everyone, yet I think just maybe the musicians are being pushed around too much?
Maybe that sweet clarinet sound is lost due to instrument makers and mouthpiece makers? I think this is part of it. But it surely isn't the whole situation.
It will surely be fun to address this subject again in 5 to 10 years. This is when Buffet will either be gone or have gotten their act together. It will be when Yamaha may be the number 1 clarinet in the world. Or maybe Selmer? This will be when you don't have to pay $500 to $1000 for a silly dead sounding mouthpiece that only costs $2 to make! Although the mold is a bit expensive to make. The clarinet world will be evolving rapidly. No one is happy, or very few are happy. We want to hear someone sound like Marcellus again. Or Gennusa, or Wright.
This WILL happen. There are too many gifted players, even better players than these greats who want that sound. Then, will these musical chairs continue? These one year contract assignments suck. It's not right.
Yes there are a lot of "Ifs," to this, including the need for GREAT conductors like Szell. With gifted conductors swapping out positions may help slow this problem down.
In closing I have to repeat this story. Marcellus and the Cleveland Orchestra were getting ready to record and Bob (Robert Marcellus) I called him Bob, was playing on a glass mouthpiece, crystal, and Szell told him not to use it for the recording. Well Bob decided to spray the mouthpiece black and they did the recording session. After, Szell took Bob aside and told him he can paint the mouthpiece any color he wished, but do NOT ever use this mouthpiece in my orchestra again! Well Szell had a heck of an ear, and he of course wanted his symphony to have HIS sound. By the way Szell I think went to Curtis, as did David Shifrin, however David studied with many and the guy is simply amazing. So again, maybe David would have fit well with Szell?
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2017-04-03 02:56)
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Author: echi85
Date: 2017-03-31 16:43
Bob makes a very good point about the financial aspect of orchestras. I know many orchestras have left positions open simply because it was cheaper to get subs to fill the spot. I don't think it's applicable to Cleveland but it is nevertheless becoming more common.
As much as I would love to hear a new Marcellus or Wright, I think that the tonal concept (at least in the US), is shifting very much away from that idea. There are a flood of outstanding clarinetists who are looking for something much more covered and dark. I'll list these videos as examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiKLu50KRoM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyXm0__laLY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpbo4G7F02g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hZQq3usZ0o
There seems to be a shift from an Eee clarinet sound to an Ah sound in recent years at least in my experience. I'm not a fan of it but I do think it's happening.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2017-03-31 17:30
Wow, I'm surprised I haven't heard this before, that's what happens when one is retired. I wasn't even aware they just hired a new bass clarinet player. A former student of mine just won the Toronto bass clarinet job, I don't remember him mentioning an opening in Clevland unless it was a year or two ago and I just forgot.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2017-03-31 17:45)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2017-04-01 04:19
There has definitely been a shift among many pro orchestral players from mouthpieces along the lines of the Vandoren M13 lyre and M15, towards the much darker and more covered Vandoren BD5. Often this progression has included intermediate steps through the Vandoren B30 and B40 and B30D and B40D, with some players briefly trying the very dark Kuckmeier B2 and then shifting over to the BD5, which seems to be Vandoren's answer to the Kuckmeier. The clarinet section in the Louisiana Philharmonic, for example, in the past few years have gone down this path and are now all using BD5s, and I've heard of a similar progression taking place in many other American orchestras.
One motivation for this change, among many others, is to make the altissimo less shrill and harsh and to remove some of the stridency when the clarinet is played fortissimo. Another is to blend better with the brass. Some hear these changes as big improvement, and others hear them as a leap into dullness and lackluster monotony.
Post Edited (2017-04-01 04:47)
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Author: Sum Randumb D00d
Date: 2017-04-01 21:53
I've been noticing catastrophically more mental illness and Anti-Social Personality Disorder in professional musicians in the last 15 or 20 years.
100 years ago, musicians were fairly normal members of the community, like doctors or lawyers or carpenters or farmers.
But mass-production of music [wax cylinders, 78s, LPs, cassettes, CDs, MP3s, radio, television, live-streaming] has reduced professional musicianship to something of an hermitage for the unbalanced.
In particular, mass-production of music has decimated the free market economy in the industry, with most of these orchestras now being rigidly autocratic government bureaucracies.
And the very worst personalities always seek out lifetime sinecures in the bureaucracies.
Point being that, behind the scenes, many of these lunatics are at lunging at each others' throats.
And that doesn't even begin to address the problem of the millenial snowflakes who have to run off to their shrinks for an increase in their SSRI prescriptions every time they break a fingernail.
God knows you don't want to grant lifetime tenure to one of those basketcases.
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Author: Sum Randumb D00d
Date: 2017-04-01 22:06
BTW, you see this now in the university professors, as well.
The average university professor in the USA today is clinically insane.
They will fight to the death over the tiniest perceived slight and the most asinine of turf wars.
And they will not grant tenure to anyone - way more than 50% of the teaching load is now handled by non-tenure-track "lecturers" who drive their 250,000-mile beater cars all around to three or four different universities and community colleges, desperately trying to eek out a minimum-wage living in their chosen "careers".
jus sayin
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-04-03 03:11
Philip Caron - Glad you like the story about the sprayed mouthpiece of Bob Marcellus. I have to admit I chuckle about it once in a while! It's no secret that this happened. I talked to Steve Barta about it too. He knew the story very well! Steve was a 4 year student of Marcellus at Cleveland.
If interested, it is still available on the market I think, the recording is Capriccio Espagnol. I think he sounded great, but guess Szell didn't! hahaha Bob did have fun telling a few stories about his days with the orchestra. Szell was surely demanding. Through the years I've tried to collect as many recordings of Szell conducting. His woodwind section was pretty amazing.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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